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Rhaegar "kidnapping" Lyanna rumor - who started it?

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This has bugged me for a while now and I haven't seen a satisfying answer yet. 

We all know that the rumor about Lyanna was that "Rhaegar kidnapped and raped her" then Robert's Rebellion. Well, no one saw Lyanna for, what, 9 months, as she was hidden in Tower of Joy pregnant. And I believe many of us believe she was never kidnapped to begin with, she ran off with Rhaegar to follow her heart. I can see how the citizens would see her disappearance as 'kidnapped', she's no longer around. But...raped? What evidence was there of that, unless there was proof, like seeing her pregnant? None of the stories told about them has included her being impregnated by Rhaegar as proof of the 'rape'. And we know now, from the Tower of Joy scenes, there were hand maidens there, Harland Reed and some Targaryen Kingsguard. Would they really report that she was 'raped'? I just wonder how this came to be part of the history of Lyanna and Rhaegar. Kidnap, sure, I can buy that (even if she ran off with him). 

Anyone see any reference to citizens of Kings Landing seeing her pregnant before? It seemed like young Ned was shocked she delivered a baby. So that doesn't reconcile with me. 

Thank you! 

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The kidnapping probably started when Lyanna disappeared after the Tourney at Harrenhall.
She was on her way back to Winterfell, but never arrived. So an investigation was started to track her down.

Logically, people around Harrenhall were asked if they saw Lyanna, since Rhaegar and his escort were well known, people would've stopped and watched, and they would've seen Lyanna in his escort, perhaps even riding next to Rhaegar. So it would soon become clear that Lyanna was 'taken' by Rhaegar. Being taken can easily be changed into kidnapped, depending who you asked

About the rape part, I'm not sure, but here's what I think happened.
Rhaegar probably left with a large group from Harrenhall, some of them left earlier, or went in another direction. Things in an encampment are hard to keep quiet, so if R+L were having sex in the encampment, while travelling south, someone would have noticed. That same someone could have been found by the search party, and interrogated.
Now, if you heard that your sister (or your liege lord's daughter) was 'taken' by Rhaegar, and that they had sex in the encampment. Would you think that she (still being a virgin before), would have had sex with her 'captor' voluntarily, or that he forcer himself on her?

 

 

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On ‎11‎/‎18‎/‎2016 at 1:15 AM, Ser Walter of AShwood said:

The kidnapping probably started when Lyanna disappeared after the Tourney at Harrenhall.
She was on her way back to Winterfell, but never arrived. So an investigation was started to track her down.

There is a year between the tourney and Lyanna's disappearance.  The fair weather of the false spring lasted only a moon, then winter returned with a vengeance.  Between the tourney and Brandon going to Riverrun to deal with Littlefinger's challenge, Aegon was born, and Elia did not get reported as expecting at the tourney.  Rhaegar was looked for when Aerys lit fires on the walls of King's Landing, against the chill of the winter, but he could not be found, even on Dragonstone with his newborn son. 

After dealing with Littlefinger, Brandon took his leave of Catelyn for a short errand, which once completed he would return to Riverrun for their wedding.  It was when Brandon was returning that he received word that had him hastily riding for King's Landing, and being an utter fool. 

To the OP, who says that Lyanna was kidnapped?  Robert.  It makes sense that Robert would protect his ego by insisting that Lyanna was kidnapped and raped.  It also makes sense that no one is telling the king that he is naked. 

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i assume that piece of sh*t Jon Arryn was the one whispering in Roberts ear that she was kidnapped.

he is 1 of 2, maybe 3 people Robert would listen to.

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Of course in one of its meanings "rape" means "to carry off" as in the infamous Roman legend of "The Rape of the Sabine Women".  Did Lyanna go willingly?  Maybe, maybe not but Robert obviously believed she didn't.  His anger in this is toward Rhaegar and him only.  As to Lyanna well there is Stockholm syndrome and the fact that GRRM writes and develops very complicated characters that operate off of the whole palette of human psychological behavior. 

In the series, even in the books we never are told what Ned told Robert about the circumstances at the Tower of Joy.  Obviously Ned talked about the fight with Sir Arthur Dane.  Lyanna was obviously dead, I'm just guessing here but Ned may have told everyone that she and the baby died in childbirth.  In that circumstance, having finally been found in a remote Tower guarded by members of the King's Guard that Ned, her brother, had to kill in order to get to her, well it's not a massive leap to see it through Robert's eyes.  Whatever her feelings toward him, Robert loved her.

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Honestly It could simply be that secretly Robert was afraid that Lyanna did in fact run off with Rhaegar but out of his blind intense love for her he decided to tell himself that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped her, and as the years went by the lie he had kept telling himself became his truth and the only truth he would be content with knowing. He would probably continue to cement this lie in his psyche by telling everyone he knew or came into contact with him the "truth" about Rhaegar & Lyanna. Eventually leading to others, who weren't close to anybody closely involved or simply weren't around at that time, hearing Robert's version and believing that.

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I'd like to think that she ran off with him, but all the information we currently have is that he kidnapped her and raped her. Of course all of those stories are from people who were against the Targaryens. Especially King Robert, there's no way he'd accept it a fact of love if that's what it was. Even if she was raped it seems that she loved and cared about Jon, but that probably has nothing to do with whether she was raped or not.

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Posted (edited)

7 hours ago, Wolf and Dragon said:

I'd like to think that she ran off with him, but all the information we currently have is that he kidnapped her and raped her. Of course all of those stories are from people who were against the Targaryens. Especially King Robert, there's no way he'd accept it a fact of love if that's what it was. Even if she was raped it seems that she loved and cared about Jon, but that probably has nothing to do with whether she was raped or not.

Yeah even if she was raped (which I agree sounds like Anti-Targaryen propaganda), she'd still care for the child regardless, because it's still her child. She may have a little resentment sure but her love for it would trump that.

Edited by Adam_Up_Bxtch

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Posted (edited)

Was Lyanna in the Tower of Joy for 11 months or 9 months?  

The rape/kidnapping story comes from Robert, doesn't it? He hated Rhaegar and wanted to kill every Taragryen. He would say that to Ned in the crypt while standing beside Lyanna's statue. I do think Robert was so infactuated with Lyanna. Sorry I haven't got the exact words to quote this, Ned mentioned that Robert doesn't know Lyanna.

We also get a vague picture of Lyanna and Rhaegar on the TV show, it's word of mouth. Looking at Lyanna and Rhaegar's personalities, it doesn't fit the idea of rape/kidnap. It's not something Rhaegar would've done???? He seemed very intelligent, musical, philosophical, deep thinking, quiet and not in any way someone who would rape and kidnap. I wonder if Rhaegar rescued her, and Lyanna went to him willingly.I don't think she ever wanted to marry Robert.

Edited by Wolfgirly
bad typing

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On 3/17/2017 at 7:00 PM, Byfort of Corfe said:

Of course in one of its meanings "rape" means "to carry off" as in the infamous Roman legend of "The Rape of the Sabine Women".  Did Lyanna go willingly?  Maybe, maybe not but Robert obviously believed she didn't.  His anger in this is toward Rhaegar and him only.  As to Lyanna well there is Stockholm syndrome and the fact that GRRM writes and develops very complicated characters that operate off of the whole palette of human psychological behavior. 

In the series, even in the books we never are told what Ned told Robert about the circumstances at the Tower of Joy.  Obviously Ned talked about the fight with Sir Arthur Dane.  Lyanna was obviously dead, I'm just guessing here but Ned may have told everyone that she and the baby died in childbirth.  In that circumstance, having finally been found in a remote Tower guarded by members of the King's Guard that Ned, her brother, had to kill in order to get to her, well it's not a massive leap to see it through Robert's eyes.  Whatever her feelings toward him, Robert loved her.

I don't think Robert loved Lyanna. He barely knew her and had bastard babies all over the 7 kingdoms. Robert loved the idea of marrying his best friend's sister.  Another conquest is all Lyanna would have been to him. He would have never been a faithful husband. Lyanna knew it and said no thanks. 

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Posted (edited)

39 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

I don't think Robert loved Lyanna. He barely knew her and had bastard babies all over the 7 kingdoms. Robert loved the idea of marrying his best friend's sister.  Another conquest is all Lyanna would have been to him. He would have never been a faithful husband. Lyanna knew it and said no thanks. 

So she took off with a married man who already had two children and became his mistress and had his child.  Yeah, that seems like a better option.  Robert may not have been perfect for her but Rhaegar wasn't such a hot choice either. 

 

16 hours ago, Wolfgirly said:

Was Lyanna in the Tower of Joy for 11 months or 9 months?  

The rape/kidnapping story comes from Robert, doesn't it? He hated Rhaegar and wanted to kill every Taragryen. He would say that to Ned in the crypt while standing beside Lyanna's statue. I do think Robert was so infactuated with Lyanna. Sorry I haven't got the exact words to quote this, Ned mentioned that Robert doesn't know Lyanna.

We also get a vague picture of Lyanna and Rhaegar on the TV show, it's word of mouth. Looking at Lyanna and Rhaegar's personalities, it doesn't fit the idea of rape/kidnap. It's not something Rhaegar would've done???? He seemed very intelligent, musical, philosophical, deep thinking, quiet and not in any way someone who would rape and kidnap. I wonder if Rhaegar rescued her, and Lyanna went to him willingly.I don't think she ever wanted to marry Robert.

Robert's hatred of Targs and Rhaegar in particular stems from what Rhaegar does to Lyanna.  I am always puzzled by people who read Rhaegar as the beau ideal of chivalry when he has chosen to abandon his two children and their mother to take up with another woman .  He doesn't even have the courtesy to end their marriage, instead he embarrasses her by naming a girl that he never met before as his "Queen of Love and Beauty" in front of most of the nobility of Westeros.  Yeah, sounds like a real gentleman to me.  This is why I had hoped that GRRM and HBO would have done Robert's Rebellion, I have a feeling that had GRRM really delved into presenting Rhaegar we would have seen him for the two faced fraud he is.  I always remember what Terry Jones said (and my studies have indicated) that when we think of the Knight in history we think he is best represented by Galahad or Lancelot when in reality he was a more like Tony Soprano.  That's Rhaegar.  And I think that we would have seen that Lyanna had more than a touch of Stockholm Syndrome.

Edited by Byfort of Corfe

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6 hours ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

So she took off with a married man who already had two children and became his mistress and had his child.  Yeah, that seems like a better option.  Robert may not have been perfect for her but Rhaegar wasn't such a hot choice either. 

 

Robert's hatred of Targs and Rhaegar in particular stems from what Rhaegar does to Lyanna.  I am always puzzled by people who read Rhaegar as the beau ideal of chivalry when he has chosen to abandon his two children and their mother to take up with another woman .  He doesn't even have the courtesy to end their marriage, instead he embarrasses her by naming a girl that he never met before as his "Queen of Love and Beauty" in front of most of the nobility of Westeros.  Yeah, sounds like a real gentleman to me.  This is why I had hoped that GRRM and HBO would have done Robert's Rebellion, I have a feeling that had GRRM really delved into presenting Rhaegar we would have seen him for the two faced fraud he is.  I always remember what Terry Jones said (and my studies have indicated) that when we think of the Knight in history we think he is best represented by Galahad or Lancelot when in reality he was a more like Tony Soprano.  That's Rhaegar.  And I think that we would have seen that Lyanna had more than a touch of Stockholm Syndrome.

It's easy to look at it from the point of view as someone raised in the 21st Century. Or someone who believes the opinion made by Robert and friends about Rhaegar because we're introduced to the whole thing from Robert's angle first of all. Above all I feel sad for Elia and her poor children. Lyanna most likely fell head over heals in love with this handsome prince. I don't believe that he kidnapped and raped her at all, that doesn't sound like the character he was. Lyanna was probably not wanting to be married to Robert, who was a womaniser and drunk. So this gorgeous prince offered her a new life and spirited her away to Dorne.

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Posted (edited)

6 hours ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

So she took off with a married man who already had two children and became his mistress and had his child.  Yeah, that seems like a better option.  Robert may not have been perfect for her but Rhaegar wasn't such a hot choice either. 

 

Robert's hatred of Targs and Rhaegar in particular stems from what Rhaegar does to Lyanna.  I am always puzzled by people who read Rhaegar as the beau ideal of chivalry when he has chosen to abandon his two children and their mother to take up with another woman .  He doesn't even have the courtesy to end their marriage, instead he embarrasses her by naming a girl that he never met before as his "Queen of Love and Beauty" in front of most of the nobility of Westeros.  Yeah, sounds like a real gentleman to me.  This is why I had hoped that GRRM and HBO would have done Robert's Rebellion, I have a feeling that had GRRM really delved into presenting Rhaegar we would have seen him for the two faced fraud he is.  I always remember what Terry Jones said (and my studies have indicated) that when we think of the Knight in history we think he is best represented by Galahad or Lancelot when in reality he was a more like Tony Soprano.  That's Rhaegar.  And I think that we would have seen that Lyanna had more than a touch of Stockholm Syndrome.

I don't think she became Rhaegar's mistress. I think she became his 2nd wife. Now you can preach about how wrong polygamy is/was and how it was no longer practiced but the first Aegon married both his sisters. So I think Rhaegar would do whatever it took to fulfill the prophecy that he believed that The Prince That Was Promised would be one of his children.  Elia almost died giving birth to baby Aegon. It was said that she would be unable to bear anymore children. 

Now, I personally think that Elia, knowing her situation consented to Rhaegar taking another wife.  As for Elia & Rhaegar, their marriage was arranged. I don't think that they truly fell in love with each other. But you never heard tales of Rhaegar being a womanizer like Robert. He's always described as thoughtful, maybe a little somber or melancholy, but fair and honest. And that's from everybody. Be it Barristan, Jamie, Cersei, and even Ned never has a dark thought about Rhaegar. If he felt Rhaegar kidnapped and raped his sister and started a war that led to his father and brother being tortured and murdered, don't you think he would have some animosity towards him?  Go back and read Ned's chapters in Thrones. When he thinks of Rhaegar, there is no sense of hatred. 

Now, as for Rhaegar & Lyanna, I don't think Rhaegar randomly picked her out to fulfill a prophecy. I think he genuinely fell in love with her and it all came from the events at the Tourney at Harrenhal. I believe that Lyanna was the Mystery knight that defended Howland Reed's honor. Rhaegar was tasked with finding and revealing this knights identity. I believe he found the knight and found out it was Lyanna and he was awestruck that a young lady could be so fierce and tough and honorable. He fell in love with her for her character and spirit not just her looks. I think that's what makes the love genuine. 

In conclusion, I think after the tourney, Rhaegar researched and found that maybe a mixture of Valyrian/Targaryen and First Men/Stark blood will be what's needed to create TPTWP. I believe Lyanna believed as well and they ran off together and got married and created Jon Snow.  Who is most definitely looking like an important figure in the coming War for the Dawn. 

Edited by Smoke317

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