How Daenerys will die

[SeanF]

8 hours ago, Ser Creighton said:

I am just going to address the Dany stuff as it's a Dany topic, and it's speculative. So a friend of mine and fellow poster here sometimes always had this idea that if Dany does not die and that's up for debate, that she thinks Dany would not stay to rule at least not in the traditional sense of Westeros. Maybe she appoints someone like Tyrion or maybe she just vanishes with possible Jon like Nettles and Daemon. Witch got me to thinking is there any possible foreshadowing to this.

Now I think you can make an argument that Dany and the future of the story will have some parallels to the Dance, though I don't think it's how many people imagine with Aegon. But rather we will see another battle over the Gods eye. Both Daemon and Dany have a brother named Viserys though you could say they were opposites.

So if Dany were to Vanish I think she would actually be returning to the great grass sea, to the Dothraki. Not like the end of Dance, but she may return to them.

Dany has two interesting aspects in her dreams that may point to this. One is the barefoot girl running in the grass. We see this imagery repeated when Dany is with the Dothraki early in thrones. Barefoot walking in the grass and mud and letting it squish between her feet. We see this happen again in Dance when she returns to the Dothraki sea and is walking through it barefoot.

I guess the next part is not really dream related but ties to her being a Dragon. In the history of Dragons, it's not really considered a good thing for them to be chained down. We read about this with the Dragon Pit of KL, and saw it with her own Dragons in Meereen when they were in the make shift Dragon pit which is really a reflection of Dany's story in Meereen. She did not exactly like ruling or politics, she was happiest in the Dothraki sea. As a character Dany has spent most of her life as a nomad wandering from place to place. I don't think she would even like KL.

While she is groomed to rule, that does not mean Martin plans for her to rule in a conventional way, Dany has been anything but conventional. Similar to her time with the Dothraki, Jon's time with the Wildlings nomadic army was an enjoyable time for him and the girl he was with was kissed by fire. Again this could be foreshadowing a parallel.

In truth Dany wandering around Essos with a Dothraki army going from town to town, would be a more effective way to ensure slavery remained gone. While she could always journey to Westeros to check up on things from time to time. I think once she leaves Meereen she will place someone in charge there and I think if she leaves Westeros it will mirror that. I think Tyrion sits the throne in the end, not only is he good at politics and has a strong understanding of Westrosi culture, but he enjoys it to an extent that neither she or Jon does.

If I had to guess I think Dany leaves, maybe Jon goes with her, maybe he is dead, maybe he stays behind, maybe he reforms the watch, or rules the north. But her, I think she leaves, I think her home is where her heart is and that is actually out on those plains. I think being chained to one city would mirror the dragons, it would be bad for her, she is better in the wild and on the move.

I actually like the idea better than sitting on the Iron throne, she is a nomad, and nomads got to move around. I also don't think she would want a child of hers raised in KL, I think the Dothraki culture minus slavery appeals to her, and she does not need slaves to have followers, she is pretty much the most famous person of her generation.

 

 

Something like that would probably be the happiest ending for Daenerys.

[SeanF]

On ‎11‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 10:27 AM, Lord Varys said:

If Beric, Catelyn, and Jon can be resurrected, so can Daenerys. But then, Dany is a woman and no warrior, and thus very unlikely to ever be involved in any physical fighting that she is going to live through (the only exception would be flying Drogon into battle). She could easily enough be assassinated, captured and killed after a lost battle, and die with or without her dragon in a battle (either by being hit by a lucky arrow, by falling off the dragon's back, or by dying with her dragon after the beast has been mortally wounded in flight).

But the question is not about that, the question is whether it is sensible to even discuss this thing in a manner that already presupposes that Dany will die. There is no reason to do so.

We have no threads discussing how Tyrion, Bran, Arya, Sansa, Brienne, Davos, or Arianne are going to die. Why is that?

And I don't remember any thread prior to ADwD discussing how Jon is going to die. It still happened, but only very few people expected it.

People frequently speculate that Arya, Brienne, and Arianne will die, while Bran finishes up as a tree.  In Daenerys' case, it seems she's had so many close brushes with death, that her luck is bound to run out eventually.

[Drogonthedread]

20 hours ago, DutchArya said:

That was after she lost her mother and brother. Looking at that isolated incident is a bit unfair. Especially when I referenced an Arya that is capable of living a normal life after she gets to Braavos. What she experienced while going through a war zone is not an accurate depiction of Arya's long-term state of mind.

Her separation from home is a constant obstacle, but deep down we see what is closest to her heart while she is in the HoBW:

“[…] When you smell our candles burning, what does it make you think of, my child?” 

Winterfell, she might have said. I smell snow and smoke and pine needles. I smell the stables. I smell Hodor laughing, and Jon and Robb battling in the yard, and Sansa singing about some stupid lady fair. I smell the crypts where the stone kings sit, I smell hot bread baking, I smell the godswood. I smell my wolf, I smell her fur, almost as if she were still beside me. - (Arya, A Feast for Crows)

 

How do you judge her affection in those scenarios? The fact that she doesn't leave Gendry and the rest, says nothing to you? They were holding her back but she refused to leave them. The fact that they left her is a reflection on them and not Arya. Her early days in Winterfell are friendships of necessity? What need did a highborn noble girl have with "rough-spoken freeriders of uncertain birth"? 

When she saw the guardsmen on the third pier, in grey woolen cloaks trimmed with white satin, her heart almost stopped in her chest. The sight of Winterfell’s colors brought tears to her eyes. - Arya, AGOT

^ It was the knowledge of her Father's men and knowing who they were, that saved Arya from this trap. These are the people that interested her and she never forgot.

 

Wow. So everything she does now you're gonna think it's fake? Even though caring about people and creating attachments (the side of ARYA that she can't let go) is something inconsistent to being No One? She wants to be Cat while blind and homeless. Those are Arya's wishes. She was doing that well before her FM training. I mean, this type of character assassination is just sad. 

 

Dareon would have died by Ned or Jon's hand. That poor Bolton solider was helping to keep her prisoner, that was an act of survival on her part. You show more sympathy for these two men than the little girl who is threatened with rape and has her life constantly in danger. 

 

“If a twelve-year old has to conquer the world, then so be it.” -George R. R. Martin 

Arya is exactly the kind of person a post-WW world needs. Her future exists beyond your death prediction or her being sent away from her family and home because she is incapable of living among "normal" people. The idea she will serve as some Master spy is also unlikely. I think she will have a position of leadership and her fierce early views on the unfairness and injustice the raelm is subjected to (and what she has lived through) I think she will make some kind of impact in that area - I see her living and doing some good. 

Arguably Varys’ most popular quote, seems to fit like a glove on Arya’s character:

“Aegon has been shaped for rule since before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them.” (Kevan, A Dance with Dragons)

Not so quick...if people are being honest they would know that the quote actually fits dany more than it does arya 

[Drogonthedread]

On 11/30/2016 at 3:57 PM, Lord Varys said:

If Beric, Catelyn, and Jon can be resurrected, so can Daenerys. But then, Dany is a woman and no warrior, and thus very unlikely to ever be involved in any physical fighting that she is going to live through (the only exception would be flying Drogon into battle). She could easily enough be assassinated, captured and killed after a lost battle, and die with or without her dragon in a battle (either by being hit by a lucky arrow, by falling off the dragon's back, or by dying with her dragon after the beast has been mortally wounded in flight).

But the question is not about that, the question is whether it is sensible to even discuss this thing in a manner that already presupposes that Dany will die. There is no reason to do so.

We have no threads discussing how Tyrion, Bran, Arya, Sansa, Brienne, Davos, or Arianne are going to die. Why is that?

And I don't remember any thread prior to ADwD discussing how Jon is going to die. It still happened, but only very few people expected it.

That's an interesting question ..it does bring all the trolls and haters and them getting this pleasure of writing scenarios of her death..

And its so much to fun read some of these absurd wishful scenarios 

[TyrionTLannister]

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I am just going to address the Dany stuff as it's a Dany topic, and it's speculative. So a friend of mine and fellow poster here sometimes always had this idea that if Dany does not die and that's up for debate, that she thinks Dany would not stay to rule at least not in the traditional sense of Westeros. Maybe she appoints someone like Tyrion or maybe she just vanishes with possible Jon like Nettles and Daemon. Witch got me to thinking is there any possible foreshadowing to this.

Now I think you can make an argument that Dany and the future of the story will have some parallels to the Dance, though I don't think it's how many people imagine with Aegon. But rather we will see another battle over the Gods eye. Both Daemon and Dany have a brother named Viserys though you could say they were opposites.

So if Dany were to Vanish I think she would actually be returning to the great grass sea, to the Dothraki. Not like the end of Dance, but she may return to them.

Dany has two interesting aspects in her dreams that may point to this. One is the barefoot girl running in the grass. We see this imagery repeated when Dany is with the Dothraki early in thrones. Barefoot walking in the grass and mud and letting it squish between her feet. We see this happen again in Dance when she returns to the Dothraki sea and is walking through it barefoot.

I guess the next part is not really dream related but ties to her being a Dragon. In the history of Dragons, it's not really considered a good thing for them to be chained down. We read about this with the Dragon Pit of KL, and saw it with her own Dragons in Meereen when they were in the make shift Dragon pit which is really a reflection of Dany's story in Meereen. She did not exactly like ruling or politics, she was happiest in the Dothraki sea. As a character Dany has spent most of her life as a nomad wandering from place to place. I don't think she would even like KL.

While she is groomed to rule, that does not mean Martin plans for her to rule in a conventional way, Dany has been anything but conventional. Similar to her time with the Dothraki, Jon's time with the Wildlings nomadic army was an enjoyable time for him and the girl he was with was kissed by fire. Again this could be foreshadowing a parallel.

In truth Dany wandering around Essos with a Dothraki army going from town to town, would be a more effective way to ensure slavery remained gone. While she could always journey to Westeros to check up on things from time to time. I think once she leaves Meereen she will place someone in charge there and I think if she leaves Westeros it will mirror that. I think Tyrion sits the throne in the end, not only is he good at politics and has a strong understanding of Westrosi culture, but he enjoys it to an extent that neither she or Jon does.

If I had to guess I think Dany leaves, maybe Jon goes with her, maybe he is dead, maybe he stays behind, maybe he reforms the watch, or rules the north. But her, I think she leaves, I think her home is where her heart is and that is actually out on those plains. I think being chained to one city would mirror the dragons, it would be bad for her, she is better in the wild and on the move.

I actually like the idea better than sitting on the Iron throne, she is a nomad, and nomads got to move around. I also don't think she would want a child of hers raised in KL, I think the Dothraki culture minus slavery appeals to her, and she does not need slaves to have followers, she is pretty much the most famous person of her generation.

This seems too good to be true, to be honest. Characters generally don't get what they want in ASOIAF. That's why Arya has a better chance of becoming Queen than Dany or Sansa, who've been dreaming of it since forever. 

[Drogonthedread]

21 minutes ago, TyrionTLannister said:

This seems too good to be true, to be honest. Characters generally don't get what they want in ASOIAF. That's why Arya has a better chance of becoming Queen than Dany or Sansa, who've been dreaming of it since forever. 

Dany doesn't just dream of being queen..learning ,leading and ruling them unlike sansa or arya 

 

And dany doesnt want to be queen but a house with red door and family which she will never find ..so there's that 

[TyrionTLannister]

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Dany doesn't just dream of being queen..learning ,leading and ruling them unlike sansa or arya 

And dany doesnt want to be queen but a house with red door and family which she will never find ..so there's that 

I mean, even if she doesn't want to, that's been her goal since the first book.

Robb's arc was about avenging the Ned and winning independence for the North, but he just died.  Arya's arc has been largely about training to be a Faceless Man, but it looks like she'll leave the organization soon. Jon's arc has been about the Night's Watch, but his death gives him the chance to leave. As a rule, characters don't achieve their stated goals. They either die, or end up somewhere completely different.

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 11/30/2016 at 5:27 AM, Lord Varys said:

We have no threads discussing how Tyrion, Bran, Arya, Sansa, Brienne, Davos, or Arianne are going to die. Why is that?

Tyrion's fate...

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Tyrion Lannister looked up from his books and shivered, though the library was snug and warm. Something about the howling of a wolf took a man right out of his here and now and left him in a dark forest of the mind, running naked before the pack.

Tyrion I, Game 9

I suspect that The Second Dance of the Dragons will culminate at the Trident as armies led by Daenerys, Stannis, and Aegon meet. I expect Drogon the winged shadow will burn Stannis, and all his power will join Daenerys. But I also expect that Tyrion will betray Daenerys with Brown Ben and Viserion for Aegon's side. I could see Tyrion later, alone in the woods, wishing he hadn't. I could then see Nymeria picking up his sent.

[Ser Creighton]

10 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

The idea is nice and I'll get to the points.

Would he really go with her and live nomadic life?.That really seems unlike Jon. More of bittersweet ending that he has to rule and rebuild devastated country because he was pushed to it. or he has to. It could be same for Dany.

Only realistic options for him are to be in the North... help rebuilding Night's Watch or his family the North, who will be most affected by Winter and The Others. Leaving into legends, literally like a Ghost or ruling in KL. Can't see him wandering around Essos with Dany. This more of her thing to do. I had the impression she might want to return, and realize Essos is her place and Dothraki people she connects to most of them. This is really not Jon's destiny or life he would want to live. Of course unless they have a kid but then it's not a good life for a child either and especially since he would be a royalty. Promise for the future.

Agree with Tyrion.

 

Well I didn't say Jon would go with her, I left his options rather open, weather it was death, the way, maybe they both vanish, it's a tough call. Would he go with her? That all depends on the story, lets say they did hook up, and there is a love story aspect. Then yeah maybe, he enjoyed his time with the Wildlings and he may wish for a simpler life at this point, again it was mostly speculation on Dany and I left Jon in the category of many options. You know the watch, the north, even KL, but I don't see that idea thrilling him that much.

I would think the vanishing option is possible but I tend to think for Martin it would leave to many options open, a lot of his story falls apart if Dany vanishes  like slavery and possibly Tyrion on the throne. They both need some power baking them, to maintain new policy, especially slavery.

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

@Ser Creighton

There is a chance that Dany might not willing to settle down. But then, if not pretty much everybody dies in the fight against the Others there is a pretty good chance that she (and Jon) might come to rule an empire stretching from the Sunset Sea to Slaver's Bay. She is likely to free all the slaves on her way to Westeros and if she ends up controlling all the Dothraki nobody in western Essos will be able to stand against her.

With the return of the dragons they could keep such an empire together and ensure that things remain as they want them to be. They could establish the kind of melting pot empire Alexander the Great tried to create.

Not sure if there is time to continue such an idea in this series but ADwD definitely didn't make this kind of development unlikely.

And if the fight against the Others becomes a fight that unites all the human cultures and factions who learn about it then this should actually be a uniting element in the end. The people surviving that war might have very different priorities than they had before they knew the Others existed.

I was thinking rather than having to show step by step what happens after the fact, that the presence of Her or her and Jon perhaps with the Dothraki wandering as I pointed out, that the idea sort of speaks for itself. You know they are there and can maintain policy. If one or both vanish a lot of ideas fall apart and it kind becomes meaningless, the slavery plot means nothing and is likely to fall apart without her. Westeros would also lose stability right after gaining it during a very crucial period. I like Tyrion but I do not see him having the support to maintain the 7 Kingdoms. I don't see Westeros dividing and everyone going backwards.

I don't expect Martin to give many answers in the end, but I expect a little direction. I do expect you would be able to see a general direction of where things could go. Rather than chaos, after chaos. The end of the Maiden and Lion story also went out of it's way to point out the missing child and what happens without that. Things fall apart, I don't expect harmony or some perfect society, but just some idea of where things in the world could go. Like what would CHK slavery from suddenly rising back up with Dany, or what would happen in Westeros to prevent yet more civil wars from suddenly popping up in power struggles. If her and Jon are off the table it sort of falls apart and becomes somewhat meaningless. I feel like post long night you do need some stability left on the field for both Westeros and Essos.

I can't see him saying Tyrion took power, and the world found balance and everyone loved him. I expect it would look like lots of work ahead in recovery and rebuilding and you need a little muscle out there to make sure things progress rather than fall apart yet again.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Tyrion's fate...

Tyrion I, Game 9

I suspect that The Second Dance of the Dragons will culminate at the Trident as armies led by Daenerys, Stannis, and Aegon meet. I expect Drogon the winged shadow will burn Stannis, and all his power will join Daenerys. But I also expect that Tyrion will betray Daenerys with Brown Ben and Viserion for Aegon's side. I could see Tyrion later, alone in the woods, wishing he hadn't. I could then see Nymeria picking up his sent.

Sorry, man, but that is way too much focus on that secondary Second Dance thing. Don't take me wrong, it sure should be entertaining and all, but Tyrion will live through that and only die at the very end of the series. Not during some mundane conflict for the control of Westeros while the Others have not yet made their great move.

There is a ton of rather obvious foreshadowing in AGoT that Tyrion's friendship with Jon will become important. And that is most likely going to be connected to the Others and not so some Aegon plot.

@Ser Creighton

I think that would be something Dany might deserve and wish for, but I doubt that she is going to be as lucky (and neither will Jon). If they were born with a different family name it might work.

I could see Arya doing something of that sort, as I laid out above, but not Dany. Especially not if she actually has to conquer Westeros with fire and blood earlier on. If she sacrifices friends and people she likes to regain her father's throne she is not likely going to be in a mood to let it all go. Especially when he role in the War for the Dawn sort of reconciles her with her subjects. After all, she will most likely play an important role in defeating them.

[a black swan]

4 hours ago, Drogonthedread said:

Not so quick...if people are being honest they would know that the quote actually fits dany more than it does arya 

Oh wow, really. When did Dany get trained in arms/sword fighting? Just one example.

But then again, you already went through this argument in this thread:

Didn't really work out.  

[A Time for Starks]

I’ve been reading through this thread and there’s a lot of good discussion here.

 

Dany dying during childbirth had never occurred to me, nor was I aware that it was a common theory.  With all the bluster of the character Dany and her dragons, such a mundane death would seem unlikely.  However, the more I think about it, the more I can see it actually happening.

 

This is what I see happening.  At the time of the birth, the white walkers and others would have been already been dealt with (topic for another thread).  The baby will be Jon’s.  Dany will die in childbirth.  In the true nature of his character and journey, Jon will be faced with the ultimate decision: either have Dany resurrected by Mel or another red priestess, or let her remain dead.  Despite having grown to love her, he will choose to let her remain dead.  Reason being is at this point in the story, he would have noticed her path towards madness, her affinity towards fire and blood.  He would realize that even despite her and her dragons being instrumental in saving Westeros from the White Walkers, Westeros would be better off without her.  Dany is a conqueror, not a ruler.

[TyrionTLannister]

@A Time for Starks has raised an interesting question: if Dany dies in childbirth, what's to stop Jon from resurrecting her? I'm far from convinced he'll let her stay dead. That's not the kind of person he is. So if she's going to stay dead, there'd have to be no way to resurrect her, which would be the case if she is killed by the icy flames of an undead Drogon.

[Lord Varys]

Again, that idea that Dany can spend the finale of this story running around with a swollen belly is not very likely. We know that it is not really easy to fly on dragonback while pregnant, so in such a setting we would likely have to assume Dany does not make it until the finale - not very likely.

In addition, there is the time gap problem. It is exceedingly unlikely that 8-9 months are going to pass between Dany and Jon having sex/marrying and the finale of the series. Unless Jon ends up abandoning the Wall and marching down south or Dany goes first North instead of just conquering the south they are not likely to meet early on after her landing.

This 'theory' is simply full of holes.

[Lord Friendzone]

On 30. 11. 2016 at 3:09 PM, Lord Varys said:

Well, I'm much more inclined that Jon is going to bite the dust in the end. If we are getting a magical resurrection/transformation of his body to save him from death I very much doubt that he'll be allowed to live a normal happy life. You don't await that kind of thing from some kind of fire zombie, do you? If there is some kind of Frodo-like character in this series who is going to carry the weight of the world on his shoulders and for whom there won't be happy ending it is Jon Snow. At least since his apparent death in ADwD..

I'm more inclined for Dany due to Mirri and Hotu but Jo is not far behind. It's kinda going from one to another for me. As you said, resurrected people or people so involved by magic as Jon will be. There is no way he'll live a happy life but of course question is that miserable life could be life and not death. Death is so final, but life is full of possibilbities. I can see partially like Frodo bearing those scars of war and resurrection.

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In addition it is quite clear that Jon Snow is more of a classical male hero than Daenerys is. Jon himself acknowledges that his in the coming war against the Others. He is the kind of character who would sacrifice himself to save others in some kind of last battle/stand. Dany not so much because she is no warrior.

Jon is closest to traditonal hero, Dany is more of grey character. But also, who knows how Jon will be in books post resurrection, will he be darker or not? Dragonriders are warriors. Not in traditional sense of this word but they are. Jon sacricing himself would sort of classic trope. It's possible but more bittersweet might be living with these experiences and never to have sort of peace in his mind. 

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It is also pretty evident that Dany is the one who is learning to rule while Jon Snow is at best learning how to lead men into battle. Those are different things. Dany gets nearly devoured by the Meereenese and Yunkai'i plotting against her but Jon would never have stood a chance in that battleground (and even less in KL).

I don't want to bring show into this, beacuse I believe it will be a bit differen contextt. We saw Jon rulling in a millitary enviroment. If Books and show follow eaxch other at least in the most basic things, he'll become KitN for someperios of time. Then we can say and compare them. Millitary order and whole city, such as unstable as Meereen, or Slaver's Bay as the whole thing is alltogether a whole different beast. As things stand right now, yes Dany is more fitting.

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I'm not completely settled on the idea that both of them will die. There is a reason why there are a male and a female Targaryen still alive in this story, and they might only marry each other after the Others are defeated.

All you need is an offspring ad they both want a son or daugher. You don't necessarily need both of the to raise or rebuild. I thought at one point of Dany losing her dragon to pay for life of her real children.

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Tyrion certainly could sit the Iron Throne. But I don't think he will in the end, simply because he is not a character to inspire lasting loyalty or a feeling that the story is over now. Tyrion murdered his father, and allegedly his royal nephew, too, and such crimes are not forgotten. Having him as king wouldn't mean closure.

I stated him as one of the options, not to rule him out of the ocassion just yet. Pretty sure he'll play a part. In general I'm not sure Westeros will have that luxury of choosing people, what he did in the past might be partially forgotten, if he proves himself in they eve of invasion. Really depenss on situation becaus he might be facing actions of other for what he ddi to Tywin, Shae but might not. He's George's favourite, he could easy on him or not so.

 

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The way George portrayed minority governments of child monarchs in this series makes it exceedingly unlikely that a bunch of regents ruling in the name of Dany's child can be sold to the reader as a proper ending to the story. The game of thrones would simply continue, and the young monarch might soon be murdered, plunging the Realm into another string of civil wars.

Partially true. It would sort of mirror Ned and how he too kacre of him. But I get your point, then one of them could raise the child. Dany is unlikely to marry more than three times, she is child of three, Jon neither. It might be that 

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Bran is not likely to care all that much about mundane matters like rebuilding the infrastructure of the Realm. He is married to the trees now, and Bloodraven didn't exactly engage in a lot of direct interaction with the people of the Seven Kingdoms in the last decades.

I firmly believe Bran's future is not to be a tree or at least I hope so. I get this is his purpose now but that would suck.

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And Arya could not possibly be less suited to play an important role in the rebuilding, either. She is not unlikely to die, too, simply because she has gone too far down a path there is no return from her. Even if she gets back to Westeros to be reunited with some of her family members she still is a traumatized girl with who trained to become a professional assassin.

Sansa is more likely to take care of the people in positive way. But Arya most likely won't

She is traumatized, but her family is what I think will brought her humanity back to some sort of level, not like it was before, but she'll play a part. Besides Dany neither of them is ideal to rebuild Westeros but that might be the point. Even the unlikeliest of them will contribute.

 

1 hour ago, TyrionTLannister said:

@A Time for Starks has raised an interesting question: if Dany dies in childbirth, what's to stop Jon from resurrecting her? I'm far from convinced he'll let her stay dead. That's not the kind of person he is. So if she's going to stay dead, there'd have to be no way to resurrect her, which would be the case if she is killed by the icy flames of an undead Drogon.

Jon does not have power to resurrect her and Mel or any other priestess would have do it on behalf or R'hllor but why would they? It seems Jon and Dany purpose is to defeat the Others and what happens afterwards might be a different scenario. It might be that they're needed for this war and not afterwards for R'hllor. Dany is not believe of R'hllor and Jon probably not. Show certainly didn't portrayed but books might be different..

[Lord Varys]

10 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

I'm more inclined for Dany due to Mirri and Hotu but Jo is not far behind. It's kinda going from one to another for me. As you said, resurrected people or people so involved by magic as Jon will be. There is no way he'll live a happy life but of course question is that miserable life could be life and not death. Death is so final, but life is full of possibilbities. I can see partially like Frodo bearing those scars of war and resurrection.

I don't think Bran is going to die, and he is one of the most magical characters. But then, I honestly hope magic is not going to die again in this series so I don't like the idea that those magical people have to die. In Jon's case it is more the fact that resurrections should come with a price, a price that is going to affect your own life quite severely.

Thinking about that, it would be ever quite a stretch to assume that Jon should be able to father children after this whole thing. If Dany gets pregnant Tyrion could do the job, or whatever other consort she is going to take aside from them.

10 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Jon is closest to traditonal hero, Dany is more of grey character. But also, who knows how Jon will be in books post resurrection, will he be darker or not? Dragonriders are warriors. Not in traditional sense of this word but they are. Jon sacricing himself would sort of classic trope. It's possible but more bittersweet might be living with these experiences and never to have sort of peace in his mind.

Still, all female Targaryen dragonriders but Visenya weren't warriors. Thus it is not likely that Dany is going to lead an army against the Others aside from, say, flying over them and bathing the wights and Others in fire. Jon might actually engage some Others in hand-to-hand combat, or leading his men in a more direct fashion. And this would put him in a much dangerous position than Dany simply by default.

We should keep the show out of here.

10 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

All you need is an offspring ad they both want a son or daugher. You don't necessarily need both of the to raise or rebuild. I thought at one point of Dany losing her dragon to pay for life of her real children.

I agree that only one of them could raise a child, yet I already pointed out that it is likely that we'll see Dany carry Jon's child to term. She might be pregnant in the end, carrying Jon's child after his death. In fact, that could be an interesting miracle in the end if they really fall in love and want children (and Dany still thinks she is barren).

10 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

I stated him as one of the options, not to rule him out of the ocassion just yet. Pretty sure he'll play a part. In general I'm not sure Westeros will have that luxury of choosing people, what he did in the past might be partially forgotten, if he proves himself in they eve of invasion. Really depenss on situation becaus he might be facing actions of other for what he ddi to Tywin, Shae but might not. He's George's favourite, he could easy on him or not so.

Sure, if he survives he could be among the people reaping the rewards. Or rather working his ass of to rebuild a Realm he helped to ruin while he was the Hand of his nephew.

Tyrion clearly is George's favorite but I don't think that's going to protect him if George's is of the opinion that Tyrion should pay for his crimes.

10 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Partially true. It would sort of mirror Ned and how he too kacre of him. But I get your point, then one of them could raise the child. Dany is unlikely to marry more than three times, she is child of three, Jon neither. It might be that

I don't think the idea of them having a living child is really necessary. It would be nice touch to see that the dynasty will eventually continue but that could also work with Dany simply being pregnant and having a good feeling (not to mention the dragons happily procreating could be a sign that House Targaryen will continue).

I mean, we are talking about people who will most likely be 16 and 17 when the series ends. There is no need for them to rush having children.

10 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

I firmly believe Bran's future is not to be a tree or at least I hope so. I get this is his purpose now but that would suck.

I don't think so. I really like the idea that he is a permanently rooted voyeur now. Great power should come at a price, and Bran could easily enough participate in events from a distance without ever physically leaving that cave.

10 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

She is traumatized, but her family is what I think will brought her humanity back to some sort of level, not like it was before, but she'll play a part. Besides Dany neither of them is ideal to rebuild Westeros but that might be the point. Even the unlikeliest of them will contribute.

Sure, but Arya most likely will be 12/13. She should get some time to recover her humanity and heal her wounds. Not be involved in rebuilding a kingdom she didn't destroy.

10 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Jon does not have power to resurrect her and Mel or any other priestess would have do it on behalf or R'hllor but why would they? It seems Jon and Dany purpose is to defeat the Others and what happens afterwards might be a different scenario. It might be that they're needed for this war and not afterwards for R'hllor. Dany is not believe of R'hllor and Jon probably not. Show certainly didn't portrayed but books might be different..

Thinking about that - if the R'hllorian resurrection spells works for some reason now that spell might no longer work after the Others are dealt with (or after some other thing has happened) then the fire wights could then just simply die. That would be quite tragic and could certainly be part of this bittersweet ending thing. Jon would basically kill himself by defeating the Others and saving mankind.

[TyrionTLannister]

Quote

Thinking about that - if the R'hllorian resurrection spells works for some reason now that spell might no longer work after the Others are dealt with (or after some other thing has happened) then the fire wights could then just simply die. That would be quite tragic and could certainly be part of this bittersweet ending thing. Jon would basically kill himself by defeating the Others and saving mankind.

The mechanism for that hasn't been properly explained. It would not be satisfying to have Jon die or Dany stay dead due to some arbitrary magic rule. 

 

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, TyrionTLannister said:

The mechanism for that hasn't been properly explained. It would not be satisfying to have Jon die or Dany stay dead due to some arbitrary magic rule. 

Well, the mechanism could be properly explained by the time this happens. Then it wouldn't be some arbitrary magic rule.

Keep also in mind that Gandalf was also merely sent back to Middle-earth for a short time, until his mission was fulfilled. When I originally read the book I thought he had been restored to life only for a short time.

If some magical connection to the coming War for the Dawn and the prophecy of the promised prince made the fire resurrection spell work then it might not work for all time only for a short while.

Then Jon, Catelyn, Beric, etc. would be living on borrowed time, anyway.

[TyrionTLannister]

Quote

Well, the mechanism could be properly explained by the time this happens. Then it wouldn't be some arbitrary magic rule.

Keep also in mind that Gandalf was also merely sent back to Middle-earth for a short time, until his mission was fulfilled. When I originally read the book I thought he had been restored to life only for a short time.

If some magical connection to the coming War for the Dawn and the prophecy of the promised prince made the fire resurrection spell work then it might not work for all time only for a short while.

Then Jon, Catelyn, Beric, etc. would be living on borrowed time, anyway.

GRRM has known Jon's ultimate fate since 1991, so if what you say is true, he would have laid the seeds for this all the way back in AGOT. I don't think he's the type of writer that would introduce an entirely new concept in the penultimate book and then have the main character die because of it. 

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, TyrionTLannister said:

GRRM has known Jon's ultimate fate since 1991, so if what you say is true, he would have laid the seeds for this all the way back in AGOT. I don't think he's the type of writer that would introduce an entirely new concept in the penultimate book and then have the main character die because of it. 

The resurrection concept via the kiss of fire was introduced as early as ACoK/ASoS. Jon was also only killed in ADwD. He might have known all that for a very long time. The magical concept is already there. We don't know everything about it. Just as we don't yet know the truth about Jon's heritage yet despite the fact that he has been a character since the first book.