How Daenerys will die

[Lord Friendzone]

47 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

No it is not universally believed. A lot of people believe she would never give birth to a living child. Her living and being happy doesn't mean she would rule and get the expected happy ending. Nor the alternative is her dying with childbirth. There are more possibilities for how she would live or how she would die.    

No George doesn't do deaths because what is common in medieval times but because what the plot needs. Joanna, Rhaella and Lyanna are not even in the story. Those people never had a proper story and they are defined by their deaths by childbirth. They died because their deaths created plots. Joanna died because that's why Tywin and Cersei should hate Tyrion. Rhaella died because Viserys and Dany has to live as orphans. Lyanna died because that's how the TOJ plot needed it. Their deaths are not an end but a starting point for their children. But what would Dany's death by childbirth possibly accomplish? How such an end would fit the story? Her always wishing for a child and she never lives to see the child is pretty cruel even for Martin. Such kind of irony on a main character will be anti-climactic and irritating than being tragic. A death by childbirth would not even be made tragic because of the arbitrariness and that's why I don't think such an ending would fit.

In general people do believe she'll have a child, of course opionion differ around the fact if she'll live or not. She could die at the battle but any othe way, no. Unless she falls from Drogon.

What it would accomplish? Well, I don't know realizing what she alwys wanted a family, specifically a daughter, Jon wanted a son but both realize they'll never have that. She could give a hope to Westeros, literally A Dream of Spring.

George is drinking our tears, so making her having a child and not seeing it is perfectly in range of his style. It would be cruel even for the father, if he'll never see his kids. Not just Dany. I think it's a fitting ending but by no means a guarantee. That remains to be seen but it 's not illogical, bad or nonsense ending.

Gotta quesrtion for you. Do you believe she'll have a child and how do you think her endgame would look like in your opinion.

[Paxter Redwyne]

Just now, Lord Friendzone said:

She could give a hope to Westeros, literally A Dream of Spring.

And then child does not survive into adulthood. Seriously newborn on the throne with no heir is horrible ending.

[khal drogon]

1 minute ago, Lord Friendzone said:

In general people do believe she'll have a child, of course opionion differ around the fact if she'll live or not. She could die at the battle but any othe way, no. Unless she falls from Drogon.

What it would accomplish? Well, I don't know realizing what she alwys wanted a family, specifically a daughter, Jon wanted a son but both realize they'll never have that. She could give a hope to Westeros, literally A Dream of Spring.

George is drinking our tears, so making her having a child and not seeing it is perfectly in range of his style. It would be cruel even for the father, if he'll never see his kids. Not just Dany. I think it's a fitting ending but by no means a guarantee. That remains to be seen but it 's not illogical, bad or nonsense ending.

Gotta quesrtion for you. Do you believe she'll have a child and how do you think her endgame would look like in your opinion.

How would she finally have a family if she just got her loved one and she can't even see her living child? How that means she got a family? Her getting her family back is the only positive ending I am hoping for. 

I think too much irony will really spoil the enjoyment and result in anticlimax. This holds true for any case.

My endgame for her doesn't have her birthing a child. Either she dies of battle or she leaves to the house with the red door. I would be fine with an assassination or willing sacrifice too. Anything but death by childbirth really.

[ravenous reader]

2 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

fitting irony that she wanted child so bad, that she'll die giving a birth to her daughter/son.

Such an ending would also present an 'inverse symmetry' to how she was willing to give her own child Rhaego, as well as her brother Viserys, to the flames in furtherance of her own aims.  Because she did that -- a sacrifice going against the natural order (siblings are not supposed to stand idly by while their brother or sister is slain, nor are parents supposed to sacrifice their children in order to save themselves; instead, they're supposed to give their own lives in aid of preserving the future, as Ned did) -- in a sense Dany is living on borrowed time.

1 hour ago, khal drogon said:

But what would Dany's death by childbirth possibly accomplish? How such an end would fit the story? Her always wishing for a child and she never lives to see the child is pretty cruel even for Martin. Such kind of irony on a main character will be anti-climactic and irritating than being tragic. A death by childbirth would not even be made tragic because of the arbitrariness and that's why I don't think such an ending would fit.

It wouldn't be 'arbitrary.'  In fact, it fits with the symmetry of the story (see my comment above).  I don't think it's 'unnecessarily cruel' for Martin.  He's given her a lot of gratuitous 'plot armor' thus far, so that 'plot armor' lasting forever would be the cheesy outcome.  Dany is less interesting as a character in her own right than as a chaperone to the main attraction the dragons, which is her primary purpose.  After she's brought the dragons to Westeros for the main act, and as long as there are a few others who succeed in becoming dragonriders, she will have outlived her narrative function.

46 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

the house with the red door.

That doesn't exist.  It's always 'the next door to the right' -- and she'll never find it because she unceasingly fails to take the 'right' path.  That's the pathos of the character.  I think she's doomed to be an eternal exile, mentally if not physically.

[Lord Friendzone]

1 hour ago, khal drogon said:

How would she finally have a family if she just got her loved one and she can't even see her living child? How that means she got a family? Her getting her family back is the only positive ending I am hoping for. 

I think too much irony will really spoil the enjoyment and result in anticlimax. This holds true for any case.

My endgame for her doesn't have her birthing a child. Either she dies of battle or she leaves to the house with the red door. I would be fine with an assassination or willing sacrifice too. Anything but death by childbirth really.

I always thought "the house with the red door" is the illusion, a dream of easy life she'll never have. She always choose more complicated one. She could've stayed in Meereen and rule... or choose to spend her years as a wealthy woman in Qarth or elsewhere but she choose differently each time.

HOTU or what Mirri Maz Duur told her basically is that what she had is lost. So her giving the birth to a child, what she wanted, give people a better hope. Her having Drogo and Rhaego was the shoot at happiness but it didn't worked out for her. It's sweet knowing she gave them hope and child but sad, she'll never see it. Oneof the options, it might be a different ending.

Jon or Dany are likely endgame for each other, doubt both of them will survive so essentially she'll suffer again. I just can't imagine the scenario where Jon and Dany lives with theier child on it or can you?

[Fire Eater]

8 hours ago, khal drogon said:

I don't believe what MMD said is a prophecy. Even if it is true the wordings say Drogo would "return" which is never gonna happen like the rest of the things she said. Dany meeting him in the afterlife is not Drogo "returning". Her becoming a "mother" wouldn't really matter if she dies giving birth to a child. 

Because those monarchs are not the story's protagonists. Even then I don't find the deaths of the people mentioned by you trivial or unfitting or arbitrary however you may try to simplify it. Robert's death by boar doesn't matter to the story but Cersei's plot to kill him matters. The manner of their deaths are closely connected to the story and that's why it fits and natural. A childbirth won't connect to the plot very much and it would be an arbitrary end to the story.

How would you even guess such things. Dany hasn't met him yet in the books so how could you even know on what basis their relationship will be formed and how their relationship would be? It doesn't have any basis other than they would spend time together. It sounds really like a wish of you than a theory. 

When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east - Quentyn Martell, whose sigil is a sun, was born in Westeros and died in Essos

When the seas go dry - Dothraki Sea is shown to be going dry

mountains blow into the wind like leaves- pyramids burn by Rhaegal and Viserion? 

The conditions seem to be getting met. What says becoming a "mother" doesn't matter if she dies? I disagree, it can still be part of the story. 

Those monarchs aren't story protagonists? Last I checked, isn't Queen Cersei a POV character? Also, even if you overlook that, you are forgetting that GRRM isn't above killing his POV characters. They seldom have good deaths either with Ned beheaded with his own sword, Catelyn getting her throat slit after going mad watching her son die, Quentyn having been roasted by Rhaegal only to die slowly in agony over a few days, and Connington will likely die from greyscale. Those deaths aren't the glorious ones of story usually reserved for kings. Who is to say Dany's death wouldn't contribute to the story? Every POV character's death does contribute to the story from Ned to Pate. It wouldn't be an arbitrary end to the story given the story isn't solely about Dany.  

I thought about who Dany's third husband would be, and I couldn't think of anyone else. I doubt she'll marry Victarion or end up with Jon. Brienne and Jaime spent time together, and they managed to fall for one another during their time together. So it has to be a personal wish and not a result of deduction and thinking? One couldd just as easily say you dismiss it, because you don't wish it to happen. 

15 hours ago, TyrionTLannister said:

All the other conditions MMD listed are obviously prerequisites for Dany's death, not direct causes. So while Dany will give birth before she dies, she'll die for an unrelated reason.

It's true that monarchs often suffer inglorious deaths. But they generally die as a result of their decisions. Renly was killed because he refused to recognize Stannis as the King, Robb was killed because he broke his oath, etc. They were faced with a quandary, they picked the wrong option, and they died. Dany dying in childbirth would have nothing whatsoever to do with her decisions. It would just be completely random. GRRM wants to defy our expectations, but he is more concerned with telling a good story.

Renly was murdered by a sorceress for standing in the way of who she believes is AAR. Robb was killed not solely because of the broken marriage contract as even GRRM states Walder Frey would have looked for a way out of the alliance once he heard of the BoBW and the Tyrell-Lannister alliance. You mentioned nothing about Balon or Robert. What was Balon's wrong option that got him killed? Euron having him killed had nothing to do with his decisions as king. Was Robert's going to hunt that boar? I doubt that was a political decision. Getting pregnant would have nothing to do with her decisions? There is decision in doing the act that results in one getting pregnant in the first place. It wouldn't be random, and there's nothing that says it would ruin a story.  

[GloubieBoulga]

but if we follow the text, Daenerys was concretly pregnant for the second time, at the end of ADWD : when she's lost in the dothrak sea, she's hard hungry and dursty, she eats some green berries  : the day after, she has a natural abortion (2 pages of description !), because of malnutrition and hard conditions for live. During this passage she think that she will never have a little daughter, but in the fact she was carrying a baby. And just after, Drogon find her and she ride him like her horse Silver, as if Drogon and her were one. 

So litterally, the MMD's "prophecy" was realized in this last Daenerys chapter : 

- the sun rises in the west and and sets in the east = Quentyn Martell

- the seas go dry = Dothraki Sea in automn

- mountain blow into the wind like leaves = free dragons on Meereen ? 

- "when womb quickens again and bear a living child, Khal Drogo will return to me = "bear a living child" doesn't mean that she will give birth, but only she will be pregnant, and she is, from Daario. Drogon is associated with Khal Drogo on the funeral pyre (and perhaps a part of his spirit is now in Drogon, like a part of Viserys could be in Viserion, and a part of Rhaego (and MMD ?) could be in Rhaegal). 

These 4 points realize in the same narrative time, and imo have no other signification than the "dragon's karma" which Dany must accept with all consequences (but ironicaly, MMD probably thought she was pronouncing some impossible conditions to explain that Khal Drogo could never come back from the death). 

 

So Daenerys killed by her Drogon (fire and eated) make sense : the ultimate fate to make only one lol

 

 

[Smirking Knight]

On 11/21/2016 at 4:07 AM, GloubieBoulga said:

 

And Dany would die at Winterfell like Weese at Harrenhall ? Killed by her loved dragon, as Weese was killed by his loved dog ?  

No I imagine it would be like most other FM killings - some sort of heart-stopping poison or something that looks like an accident. Maybe slicing the straps on the harness she eventually uses to fly Drogon or at the very least trying to poison something she will put in her mouth (probably not a coin this time around). 

[Fire Eater]

On 11/22/2016 at 4:25 AM, GloubieBoulga said:

but if we follow the text, Daenerys was concretly pregnant for the second time, at the end of ADWD : when she's lost in the dothrak sea, she's hard hungry and dursty, she eats some green berries  : the day after, she has a natural abortion (2 pages of description !), because of malnutrition and hard conditions for live. During this passage she think that she will never have a little daughter, but in the fact she was carrying a baby. And just after, Drogon find her and she ride him like her horse Silver, as if Drogon and her were one. 

So litterally, the MMD's "prophecy" was realized in this last Daenerys chapter : 

- the sun rises in the west and and sets in the east = Quentyn Martell

- the seas go dry = Dothraki Sea in automn

- mountain blow into the wind like leaves = free dragons on Meereen ? 

- "when womb quickens again and bear a living child, Khal Drogo will return to me = "bear a living child" doesn't mean that she will give birth, but only she will be pregnant, and she is, from Daario. Drogon is associated with Khal Drogo on the funeral pyre (and perhaps a part of his spirit is now in Drogon, like a part of Viserys could be in Viserion, and a part of Rhaego (and MMD ?) could be in Rhaegal). 

These 4 points realize in the same narrative time, and imo have no other signification than the "dragon's karma" which Dany must accept with all consequences (but ironicaly, MMD probably thought she was pronouncing some impossible conditions to explain that Khal Drogo could never come back from the death). 

 

So Daenerys killed by her Drogon (fire and eated) make sense : the ultimate fate to make only one lol

 

 

Except "to bear children" clearly means to give birth. It's in the dictionary. That requirement hasn't been met. 

[bent branch]

On ‎11‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 5:46 AM, Lord Friendzone said:

But you can't say is illogical. George loves this irony thing going on and it would mirror Lyanna, Rhaella her mother. Motherhood was always a strong part of her arc. A lot of people would hate it, I don't know personally but you can't say it's not out of realm of possibilities.

What is logical? Dany dying in childbirth seems wildly illogical to me because it doesn't fit the story I am reading. I think MMD's statement to Dany was more of a "fuck you" than curse. The purpose of the incident with MMD is show Dany's evolution into someone who could sacrifice herself to save humanity. I see Dany's story as one of learning to let go until she is finally willing to let go of her life for the greater good.

And the story of a woman who reaches for greatness but is defeated by her weak, womanly body is so cliché. There isn't anything edgy or ironic about it.

[HoodedCrow]

She will die a heroine, to save people.

[OmnomnomPomelo]

I'd be okay if she dies during childbirth and she gives birth to twins (in order to reproduce with each other ofc...).

[Scorpion92]

She will die in childbirth, giving birth to "prince that was promised", "a song of ice and fire", "Lightbringer", the one whose birth will bring the end of Long Night and arrival of a dawn -  Eddard Stark, First of His Name, establishing a new royal dynasty of Westeros in a new capital built by God's Eye ("the seat of kings").

[Springwatch]

On 22/11/2016 at 9:25 AM, GloubieBoulga said:

but if we follow the text, Daenerys was concretly pregnant for the second time, at the end of ADWD : when she's lost in the dothrak sea, she's hard hungry and dursty, she eats some green berries  : the day after, she has a natural abortion (2 pages of description !), because of malnutrition and hard conditions for live. During this passage she think that she will never have a little daughter, but in the fact she was carrying a baby. And just after, Drogon find her and she ride him like her horse Silver, as if Drogon and her were one. 

So litterally, the MMD's "prophecy" was realized in this last Daenerys chapter : 

- the sun rises in the west and and sets in the east = Quentyn Martell

- the seas go dry = Dothraki Sea in automn

- mountain blow into the wind like leaves = free dragons on Meereen ? 

- "when womb quickens again and bear a living child, Khal Drogo will return to me = "bear a living child" doesn't mean that she will give birth, but only she will be pregnant, and she is, from Daario. Drogon is associated with Khal Drogo on the funeral pyre (and perhaps a part of his spirit is now in Drogon, like a part of Viserys could be in Viserion, and a part of Rhaego (and MMD ?) could be in Rhaegal). 

These 4 points realize in the same narrative time, and imo have no other signification than the "dragon's karma" which Dany must accept with all consequences (but ironicaly, MMD probably thought she was pronouncing some impossible conditions to explain that Khal Drogo could never come back from the death). 

 

So Daenerys killed by her Drogon (fire and eated) make sense : the ultimate fate to make only one lol

 

 

This works for me (except the killing). In my usage, 'bear' means 'carry', so if Dany is pregnant in Dance (ie carrying a living child) that part of the prophecy is fulfilled. If the rest has also been fulfilled, then the payoff (Drogo returned to as he was before) may have already happened  - Drogon reuniting with Dany at the Fighting Pit (I too believe that Drogon carries the spirit of Drogo). The reunion certainly gives Dany that 'better than sex' feeling!

But no, I haven't seen anything yet that points to the death of Dany.

ETA Posts above say Dany is longing for another child. Is this what most people think? I never got that impression. She's grieving for Rhaego, true. But when she had that possible miscarriage, she didn't immediately think 'was I pregnant?' - which is what a woman longing for a child would think.

[YOVMO]

I have long been of the opinion that Dany is the biggest red herring in the story and her death will be absolutely meaningless. Like, for instance, Victorian going into a rage when he realizes he has been boning Euron through the dusky woman and just going berserk in a rage leaving Dany dead and broken. Or some Khal and his blood riders and Ko's just brutalizing her to death. The idea of Dany lying broken and dead after a meaningless attack to me is perfectly inline with the nihilism and existential motifs in the book. Dany has no real place in this story. She makes all of the other plot lines boring and meaningless. I really think that her death will be a parallel of Ned's where even with his head on the block you still fell like something is up until ice removes his head and you realize oh...yeah...wow...so his story line is totally over huh.

[YOVMO]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

Posts above say Dany is longing for another child. Is this what most people think? I never got that impression. She's grieving for Rhaego, true. But when she had that possible miscarriage, she didn't immediately think 'was I pregnant?' - which is what a woman longing for a child would think.

I agree with you here. I do think that she is longing for the ability to bear a child as that is the hallmark of being a woman and is something that is denied to her...this is something she tries to replace first with her dragons and then with her freedman, but the desire not to be barren is far from the desire to, at present, bear a child.

[Lord Friendzone]

On 25. 11. 2016 at 11:28 PM, bent branch said:

What is logical? Dany dying in childbirth seems wildly illogical to me because it doesn't fit the story I am reading. I think MMD's statement to Dany was more of a "fuck you" than curse. The purpose of the incident with MMD is show Dany's evolution into someone who could sacrifice herself to save humanity. I see Dany's story as one of learning to let go until she is finally willing to let go of her life for the greater good.

And the story of a woman who reaches for greatness but is defeated by her weak, womanly body is so cliché. There isn't anything edgy or ironic about it.

Sacrifice is not cliche at all right.

Wildly illogical? I got a different opinion and it fits the bil for me. Their fate as Jon and Dany might mirorr those of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Her mother died as the result of it too. Motherhood is a strong theme to it. Giving life to give hope to Westeros could be done by her sacrifice or giving a child/ruler who will continue her legacy and bing A Dream of Spring.

Because books are not cliche in anything, quite a few cliche things.

 

[PrinceHenryris]

Lots of interesting talk about prophecies.

Just remember what Marwyn said about prophecy.

[Lord Varys]

If Dany died in childbirth somebody would step forth to crush the infant's head against a wall (or drown in in some well, along with any surviving dragon hatchlings to finally put an end to that abominable bloodline).

There is no chance that Westeros could recover under an infant monarch involving a long regency. Not to mention that this would be a crappy non-ending because a regency would be another period of uncertainty, backstabbing, and plotting making it nonsensical to end the story on such a note.

The end of the story will depict a strong and healthy royal couple on the Iron Throne, most likely Daenerys I and whatever name Jon Snow is going to use at that point. If any of those two dies it won't be in childbirth (nor during intercourse) but likely in the last fight against the Others.

The idea that Dany the series even spans enough time for Dany to get pregnant again by a husband she takes in Westeros and carrying that child to term is very unlikely. George needed three novels to, more or less, cover another year of plot and thus it is very unlikely that, say, ADoS is going to cover the nine months of Dany's pregnancy.

Westeros doesn't have sufficient medical knowledge for a child to survive an early birth. Perhaps a child like Elia (born a month too early) could live but certainly no child born in the seventh month or so could live in this world.

14 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Sacrifice is not cliche at all right.

Wildly illogical? I got a different opinion and it fits the bil for me. Their fate as Jon and Dany might mirorr those of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Her mother died as the result of it too. Motherhood is a strong theme to it. Giving life to give hope to Westeros could be done by her sacrifice or giving a child/ruler who will continue her legacy and bing A Dream of Spring.

Because books are not cliche in anything, quite a few cliche things.

That doesn't make a lot of sense. Rhaegar and Lyanna had to die for the whole Jon Snow story to work. If Dany and the father of her child died, too, Westeros would be pretty much as fucked as it was after the Rebellion.

There has to be some closure to all the politicking at the end of this series. Some feeling that things have an end. And that is only going to be accomplished if the surviving main protagonists all worked together to rebuild the world the Others nearly destroyed. Whether this have to be Dany and Jon can be debated but I find that the most likely outcome considering that the Stark girls, Tyrion, or Bran are not likely to ever sit the Iron Throne.

[Ser Wun Wun]

Been thinking about this some more and it occurred to me...even if Dany died, why should she stay dead?  The Last Kiss isn't exactly complicated to perform, you just need someone willing to sacrifice themselves (or part of themselves, like Thoros) to do it.  Doesn't seem unreasonable to me that there will be some R'hllor followers/people who've seen the Last Kiss performed present at the endgame, so as long as someone is willing to sacrifice themselves for Dany, she could be brought back from anything except decapitation.

Jorah would certainly die for her imo, if given the option.  Maybe Jon, if they are romantic.  

I reread HOTU, and I think there is some imagery in that sequence that can point to just this happening:

Quote

The Undying were all around her, blue and cold, whispering as they reached for her, pulling, stroking, tugging at her clothes, touching her with their dry cold hands, twining their fingers through her hair. All the strength had left her limbs. She could not move. Even her heart had ceased to beat. She felt a hand on her bare breast, twisting her nipple. Teeth found the soft skin of her throat. A mouth descended on one eye, licking, sucking, biting …
Then indigo turned to orange, and whispers turned to screams. Her heart was pounding, racing, the hands and mouths were gone, heat washed over her skin, and Dany blinked at a sudden glare.

She is surrounded by Blue-Cold things and her heart ceases to beat...this points to Dany dying while dealing with the Others imo.  But then a sudden blast of heat gets her heart going again and she flees HOTU:

Quote

Outside a long dim passageway stretched serpentine before her, lit by the flickering orange glare from behind. Dany ran, searching for a door, a door to her right, a door to her left, any door, but there was nothing, only twisty stone walls, and a floor that seemed to move slowly under her feet, writhing as if to trip her. She kept her feet and ran faster, and suddenly the door was there ahead of her, a door like an open mouth.
When she spilled out into the sun, the bright light made her stumble.

She goes back out into the world via a door shaped like an open mouth.  This open mouth door is the key part to me, because this is what points to Dany being resurrected via the Last Kiss imo.  

Jorah kneels beside her on the grass when she bursts out of that open mouth door, so maybe that points to him giving her the Last Kiss.  But then again, it was Drogon that actually restarted her heart, so a black dragon may be a symbol for it being Jon.  I lean more towards it being Jorah, though.  Seems a fitting end for his character.

For anyone who thinks yet another magical resurrection would be jumping the shark...I already kinda feel that way about Jon being resurrected in Winds, it doesn't mean it's not going to happen.  Jon and Dany both being resurrected (maybe via the same means, maybe different), would just be yet another connection/parallel between their story arcs imo.  So I don't find it far fetched at all.