Jaqen's capture

[devilish]

There's no better assassins in Planetos then the faceless men. Once they set their sight on somebody then that person is as good as dead. They are quite expensive too. LF state that to hire a faceless man you need to spend as much as two armies of common sellswords.

Which makes me wonder. How the hell Jaqen ended up caged? An elite assassin who can even change appearance should have been able to avoid that and even if he's captured he should be able to escape and leave the place without attracting too much attention. 

In my opinion Jaqen was at the right place at the right time and his job was to observe and even recruit Arya Stark. Think about it. Westeros was in the brink of war and economic collapse. With the IT owing so much money to the IB, its only fair for them to make sure that whoever sits on the IT is ready to pay. Arya characteristics are quite unique

a- Arya originate from one of the strongest houses in Westeros. She also have powerful relatives in the Vale and the Riverlands. Similarly to her sister she is quite powerful and her name alone can raise armies whose keen to protect her. Anyone marrying her would seal a great alliance indeed. 

b- She is a Westerosi noblewomen which means she's able to go in and out of any court without attracting too much attention

c- She's the last pupil of the first sword of Bravos, who was ready to die to keep her alive. That would probably attract attention by the faceless men who would want what's so special in this girl.

Arya can develop into a knight similar to Brienne, a faceless man and a potential queen. Such flexibility makes her a great asset indeed. 

 

[a black swan]

Great points!

It's always been a mystery as to why and how Jaqen is in that cage - but it is always assumed it was by choice. But to what end? 

Have you read through @sweetsunray First Reborn Theory that covers the reason why Jaqen was in that cage? It is absolutely fascinating. What are your thoughts on it I wonder?

 

[Scorpion92]

I think recruiting Arya has nothing to do with political aspect, as more with a prophetic one. I think Faceless Men were expecting Arya for a really long time. She keeps failing her trials by Kindly Men, yet she is getting promoted for no apparent reason. They are training her for a much higher purpose.

In my opinion, Many Faced God is one of the reincarnations of future Bran. If he is indeed omnipotent like many of us suspect and can manipulate and effect time, then he has been manipulating his sister's life from the very beginning and created Faceless Men organisation for her alone and for this very precise purpose. Not to mention he has been manipulating everything else.

I think that House Stark is the endgame royal house of Westeros, and to keep everything and everyone in check, there needs to be some member of this family who does not shy away from getting their hands dirty and act sometimes violent to the enemies of a state and control the intelligence network (harsher version of Varys). There is no one in Stark family as it is now who is better suited for this role, especially with the skills Arya is learning from Faceless Men like espionage, disguise, switching her identities, etc.

I just do not imagine why George would put her through all this training without purpose. Just like he is grooming Jon for a battle command for Long Night (and from whom the new Stark dynasty of Westeros will start, even though he will not survive the Long Night, but his son, Ned Stark, will), and Sansa for courtly intrigues and game of thrones and ways to amass power "behind the scenes" while pretending to be innocent, sweet and beautiful.

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

52 minutes ago, devilish said:

There's no better assassins in Planetos then the faceless men. Once they set their sight on somebody then that person is as good as dead. They are quite expensive too. LF state that to hire a faceless man you need to spend as much as two armies of common sellswords.

Which makes me wonder. How the hell Jaqen ended up caged? An elite assassin who can even change appearance should have been able to avoid that and even if he's captured he should be able to escape and leave the place without attracting too much attention.

We have to remember that even the best can make mistakes sometimes, and that a faceless man failing is not thesame as the faceless men failing. Jaqen could simply have been caught trying to kill his target, and if he was caught before he could carry out the act, the faceless men could still send another assassin to fulfill the contract.

That being said, I actually think there is more to it, and you make some very good points about Arya being the reason. I just wanted to point out that the faceless men would realistically not be as infallable as they are made out to be. I would like to know though how Jaqen could know to be in the Black Cells before Yoren found Arya.

12 minutes ago, Scorpion92 said:

(harsher version of Varys)

And what would that be? Would Arya make her child-spies eat their own tongues when she cuts them off?

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Once, GRRM was asked the question "what was Jaqen doing in the black cells". He answered that "it's a mystery" in the sense that he hadn't thought about it. (Sorry, I can't provide the link to the SSM now, but I do remember it's there.)

I believe it was a coincidence, as far as coincidence can exist in stories. Jaqen was definitely not there for Arya; The FM should have future-telling abilities and extremely detailed on top of that, in order to predict that Yoren would save Arya, that Arya would save him from the fire, that she'd survive the Twins and narrowly miss the massacre of Saltpans so that she can end up in Braavos; in short, too many random events must align perfectly for this supposed "plan" to be accomplished, that it just can't be a plan at all. I mean, if it were it would be the very definition of (bad) contrivance, IMO.

Sometimes, even the best can fail. That's true in real life, and a much better explanation for why an FM happened to cross paths with Arya and notice her.

 

20 minutes ago, Ser Scott Malkinson said:

We have to remember that even the best can make mistakes sometimes, and that a faceless man failing is not thesame as the faceless men failing. Jaqen could simply have been caught trying to kill his target, and if he was caught before he could carry out the act, the faceless men could still send another assassin to fulfill the contract.

I agree

[aryagonnakill#2]

Frankly speaking, there is no logical way for the faceless men to have predicted what happened.  This is a situation where people seem to be reading too much into what happened.  There are any number of circumstances that could have resulted in Jaqens imprisonment.  He could have been the victim of an assault and simply defended himself, he could have been after information, like what he is seemingly after in Oldtown, information he got since he did not go back to KL. 

Given that Jaqen was after a Key in Oldtown, perhaps he thought Grand Maester Pycelle would have a key as well.

[Scorpion92]

15 minutes ago, Ser Scott Malkinson said:

And what would that be? Would Arya make her child-spies eat their own tongues when she cuts them off?

I do not think she will have kids murder people on her orders, but she might teach and brainwash some older young men and women to the principle of "valar morghulis, valar dohaeris" for the sake of the new realm. Kinda like new CIA/KGB/MI-6 department.

I think she will perform more cruel and violent assassinations herself and involve as less kids as possible, because she has been a war victim herself and knows what it is like to be a child soldier (murdering people at young age). 

I am pretty sure Arya and her network of "little birds" will work very tightly with Sansa, who is called "little bird" herself and who will be ruling Queen Regent of young crown "prince that was promised", Ned Stark (Jon's son). Two sisters will systematically eliminate the enemies of the state. 

[a black swan]

1 hour ago, Scorpion92 said:

I just do not imagine why George would put her through all this training without purpose. Just like he is grooming Jon for a battle command for Long Night (and from whom the new Stark dynasty of Westeros will start, even though he will not survive the Long Night, but his son, Ned Stark, will), and Sansa for courtly intrigues and game of thrones and ways to amass power "behind the scenes" while pretending to be innocent, sweet and beautiful.

But George does have Arya indirectly involved in politics (even more so in Winds). They are using her name to secure Winterfell in the North which has also impacted on Jon and his vows as LC of NW - he has dealings with Stannis who is also being backed by the Iron Bank. Arya's proxy Jeyne Poole is currently in the hands of the Iron Bank. They are backing Stannis now, more "politics" and the Bank need to cut ties with the Crown. The relationship between the Iron Bank & The Faceless Men is a lot closer than we think. The Faceless Men have the real Arya Stark and it's likely that she will meet her Pretender Jeyne Poole in Braavos during Winds.

Not only that, a lot of her skills would lend Arya well to working the political game better than most. 

It's kind of unfortunate that you think Arya's future will amount to being a more sadistic Varys. But to each their own.

[Whitering]

Rorge and Biter are scared of him, which means at some point in the Black Cells, at the very least he showed them the coin, at most he changed his face, maybe for the previous occupant of the cell. I mean, Jaqen doesn't have to have been locked in jail until he was brought out to join the Watch. Something has to have happened for two of the grosses asshats in Westeros to be scared of the guy.

So, even if he is not Syrio lol, he likely took the identity of the former prisoner. Don't presume he was just meditating in the Black Cells for any length of time. It's entirely possible that even Varys didn't know the prisoner was ever, or just now a FM. Unless they are running all over Westeros, Jaqen was there to kill Balon, heading North with the Night's Watch would be a good way to travel, it's not like he can't just slip away at some point.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, DutchArya said:

Great points!

It's always been a mystery as to why and how Jaqen is in that cage - but it is always assumed it was by choice. But to what end? 

Have you read through @sweetsunray First Reborn Theory that covers the reason why Jaqen was in that cage? It is absolutely fascinating. What are your thoughts on it I wonder?

 

I don't purport to say why Jaquen ended up in a black cell in my First Reborn theory. I tend to agree with @ShadowCat Rivers on this. But once he was in that cage and met with Arya he recognized features and tested her.

[Light a wight tonight]

We can go real tinfoil on this and say that "Jaqen" the FM is not the same one who was in the cage. That was a real Lorathi criminal, bad enough that even Rorge and Biter were afraid of him. Sometime between the escape from Lorch's attack on Jory's group of Watch recruits and Harrenhall the FM killed the real Jaqen and took his identity.

An alternative is that "Jaqen" had been inserted into Jory's party by Varys, and had never been an actual prisoner, just in the Black Cells for the purpose of being sent to the Wall for some unknown reason. It's noted that the paperwork for the prisoners going to the Wall was irregular.

Edit: looks like Whitering had the same sort of idea as I did, about the same time.

[Scorpion92]

51 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

But George does have Arya indirectly involved in politics (even more so in Winds). They are using her name to secure Winterfell in the North which has also impacted on Jon and his vows as LC of NW - he has dealings with Stannis who is also being backed by the Iron Bank. Arya's proxy Jeyne Poole is currently in the hands of the Iron Bank. They are backing Stannis now, more "politics" and the Bank need to cut ties with the Crown. The relationship between the Iron Bank & The Faceless Men is a lot closer than we think. The Faceless Men have the real Arya Stark and it's likely that she will meet her Pretender Jeyne Poole in Braavos during Winds.

Not only that, a lot of her skills would lend Arya well to working the political game better than most. 

It's kind of unfortunate that you think Arya's future will amount to being a more sadistic Varys. But to each their own.

Oh, definitely, I foresee both Sansa and Arya's endgame as a tag-team that dominates the court of the newly established realm. Arya will be very much involved in politics, I even dare to predict she will have a very productive relationship with Tyrion as well - future Prime Minister and head of finances of the new kingdom.

And we know how much Tyrion got played by much more experienced and cunning players like, for example, Littlefinger. I think Stark sisters will allow "little lion" to run the administrative office because he is married to Sansa, thus, there is no immediate expectation of betrayal from his side, and he has talent for it (just like his father Tywin), but "behind the scenes" game will be operated and run by "she-wolves".

They will make sure no one interferes with Tyrion's work of rebuilding post Long Night Westeros, thus people will believe he is the most powerful man in the kingdom, just like Tywin before him. We know how Tywin ruled the realm, and Joanna ruled him at home. I expect same here - Tyrion will rule the realm, but in reality it is Sansa who is the ruler.

But in reality, the true political and intelligence power will be in the hands of Arya and Sansa. They will not allow repeat of their family's downfall because they will grow as the best players of thrones. People will dance to their fiddle not even realizing it. As soon as there is any threat or conspiracy to their rule (Stark rule) or crown prince Ned Stark, the sisters will destroy it in its root.

I think that would be fitting for their storylines.

[a black swan]

42 minutes ago, Whitering said:

Rorge and Biter are scared of him, which means at some point in the Black Cells, at the very least he showed them the coin, at most he changed his face, maybe for the previous occupant of the cell. I mean, Jaqen doesn't have to have been locked in jail until he was brought out to join the Watch. Something has to have happened for two of the grosses asshats in Westeros to be scared of the guy.

So, even if he is not Syrio lol, he likely took the identity of the former prisoner. Don't presume he was just meditating in the Black Cells for any length of time. It's entirely possible that even Varys didn't know the prisoner was ever, or just now a FM. Unless they are running all over Westeros, Jaqen was there to kill Balon, heading North with the Night's Watch would be a good way to travel, it's not like he can't just slip away at some point.

I've heard this explanation before. But I can't understand why that even matters for a FM? He could move North quicker on his own and be far less conspicuous than travelling with he NW recruits.

I agree with Rorge/Biter fearing him for one of the reasons you mentioned, but that still doesn't explain why he remained in the cage. I don't think travelling in such a manner would have been the best option for Jaqen if that was all he was planning to do. 

I wonder if Jaqen had any contact with Ned while in the Black Cells? 

[Nevets]

Jaqen was in the black cells because George put him there to advance Arya's storyline.  As for an in-story reason, he probably got caught being someplace or doing something he shouldn't have, either through carelessness, bad luck, or betrayal.  Even master criminals can get caught, and to be honest, Arya's interactions with them in Braavos haven't convinced me they are master criminals - only very good.  

There is no way to know he would be joining Yoren's convoy - much less that Arya would also be there.  And if, for some reason, he needs to travel with the NW convoy,it would have been far easier to do so as a common criminal from KL, of whom there were several.  No need to stay chained in a wagon.

There was also no way for Jaqen to know that Arya would end up in Braavos.  Even when he gave her the coin, there was every reason to believe that would be successfully reunited with her family.  It was only after the Twins and her inability to get to the Wall that she went to Braavos.

7 hours ago, devilish said:

a- Arya originate from one of the strongest houses in Westeros. She also have powerful relatives in the Vale and the Riverlands. Similarly to her sister she is quite powerful and her name alone can raise armies whose keen to protect her. Anyone marrying her would seal a great alliance indeed. 

b- She is a Westerosi noblewomen which means she's able to go in and out of any court without attracting too much attention

These are good reasons to hang on to her once they have her, but not so much for trying to get her in the first place.  There was way too much foreknowledge required for Jaqen's purpose to have been her recruitment.  I think they are essentially stringing her along until they can figure out what they want to do with her.  She is clearly unsuited to being an assassin-on-command as she is too passionate, empathetic and undisciplined to be a successful FM.  I do think her training will prove useful to her in the future, though.

5 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Given that Jaqen was after a Key in Oldtown, perhaps he thought Grand Maester Pycelle would have a key as well.

I think the key in Oldtown is more of a means to an end.  It gives him access to the vaults at the Citadel, in which is what he really wants.  Which is probably a previously mentioned book on  dragon lore.

[aryagonnakill#2]

35 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Jaqen was in the black cells because George put him there to advance Arya's storyline.  As for an in-story reason, he probably got caught being someplace or doing something he shouldn't have, either through carelessness, bad luck, or betrayal.  Even master criminals can get caught, and to be honest, Arya's interactions with them in Braavos haven't convinced me they are master criminals - only very good.  

There is no way to know he would be joining Yoren's convoy - much less that Arya would also be there.  And if, for some reason, he needs to travel with the NW convoy,it would have been far easier to do so as a common criminal from KL, of whom there were several.  No need to stay chained in a wagon.

There was also no way for Jaqen to know that Arya would end up in Braavos.  Even when he gave her the coin, there was every reason to believe that would be successfully reunited with her family.  It was only after the Twins and her inability to get to the Wall that she went to Braavos.

These are good reasons to hang on to her once they have her, but not so much for trying to get her in the first place.  There was way too much foreknowledge required for Jaqen's purpose to have been her recruitment.  I think they are essentially stringing her along until they can figure out what they want to do with her.  She is clearly unsuited to being an assassin-on-command as she is too passionate, empathetic and undisciplined to be a successful FM.  I do think her training will prove useful to her in the future, though.

I think the key in Oldtown is more of a means to an end.  It gives him access to the vaults at the Citadel, in which is what he really wants.  Which is probably a previously mentioned book on  dragon lore.

Ya I agree, I just don't think it's crazy to think Pycelle would have the same key, isn't the grand maester selected from the archmaesters who all have a key?

Edited for grammar. 

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

Yeah, his presence in the cells is strange, as is his proclivity to have gone north temporarily, only to ultimately have gone south to Oldtown. Based off what we know presently, that doesn't make a whole lot of logical sense. 

[Curled Finger]

Hmm, not a single mention of someone having hired him to kill Ned or Robert or Varys or Jamie?  I haven't seen an FM just hanging around for no reason.   Arya gets plenty of assignments for the experience and for the most part she is tasked with gleaning intel.  Seems to me this is a thing the FM do.   They spy.    They may be known for their legendary assassinations but I've mostly seen them spy.   Look at the House of Black & White.   I'm under the impression this is headquarters and a temple.  Seems to me only 2 actually live there, the Kindly Man and the Waif.    Arya stays there now and then, but she's out on assignment quite a lot.  Could it be that Jaqen actually lived in Kings Landing?   We know the FM are connected to the Iron Bank.   Is it unreasonable to assume Jaqen was just keeping an eye on Robert to gauge wealth of the crown?  I think it more likely Jaqen wanted to be in the Black Cells for a reason than he simply got caught doing something.   These guys are a lot of things but they aren't particularly sloppy.   

I've read a lot of reasons why Arya was the target in Kings Landing, but I don't buy it.   I agree with posters above who reckon Jaqen became interested in Arya after he met her.  

[Greywater-Watch]

14 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

But once he was in that cage and met with Arya he recognized features and tested her.

Do you think the test was "successful" in the way that Jaqen H'gar recognized Arya as the promised one (the Valkyrie)?

If so, why did he not stay with her to protect her, but left her alone at Harrenhal?

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

10 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Ya I agree, I just don't think it's crazy to think Pycelle would have the same key, isn't the grand maester selected from the archmaesters who all have a key?

No, the grand maester is selected by the archmaesters, but he himself isn't an archmaester. Pycelle was reinstated as grand maester because the archmaesters almost sent maester Gormon (Tyrell) to replace him.

[sweetsunray]

7 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Do you think the test was "successful" in the way that Jaqen H'gar recognized Arya as the promised one (the Valkyrie)?

If so, why did he not stay with her to protect her, but left her alone at Harrenhal?

Oh yes. That was why he gave her the coin.

He didn't stay, because the actual First came into being voluntarily on "her" own time. The First had no protector either. Hence, the First Reborn should not be forced into it, or have someone holding her hands constantly.

The FM aren't just very good assassins for hire for an expensive price. In fact, I don't even see much "hiring" evidence. It's a smokescreen. The price they ask tends to self-deselect people like Littlefinger or the waif's stepmother who ended up poisoning her stepchild herself instead, yet a widow or orphaned child can arrange for the insurance conman to be killed (stress on "tend", something went wrong with Euron). They are a highly mystic religious order, who kill a person who's time has come - either as "mercy" (assisted suicide), or assassination because someone "prayed" for it and was willing to make a sacrifice for it and not just money or an animal, but something they would feel is a "loss". Basically the desire to have someone dead must outscale the desire for gain or status-quo.

The signs to know the MFG's will they use is not looking into tea leaves, or flames, but serendipity of life itself. Serendipitious faith demands an attitude of letting events unfold in part, to let the dice be rolled, and see where it lands. This attitude would certainly be shown towards someone they suspect to be the First Reborn. They would act as guides toward such a person, but only at her pace and her terms. Why do you think the kindly man time and time again tells her she can leave? It's not the type of thing the kindly man would ever have offered to the Waif for example.