Crackpot: Did Tywin have Tytos whacked?

[Fire Eater]

We all know of Tywin's relationship with his father, Tytos. Tywin despised his father to the point that he made a point of being a foil to him. My inquiry is, was Tytos's death of natural causes? 

First a little quote from ADwD:   "And with that coin and the others in his purse, he paid a certain man. Soon after that man's heart gave out. Is that the way of it? Very sad." 

In 267 AC, Lord Tytos Lannister's heart burst as he was climbing a steep flight of steps to the bedchamber of his mistress (his lordship had finally put aside his wet nurse, only to become besotted with the charms of a candlemaker's daughter). So at the age of five-and-twenty, Tywin Lannister became the Lord of Casterly Rock, Shield of Lannisport, and Warden of the West

The descriptions regarding the deaths do sound similar. From WOIAF, we know Tytos's death was in the year 267 AC.  We know something else also happened that year. 

 In 267 AC, after a dispute with the Iron Bank of Braavos regarding certain monies borrowed by his father, he announced that he would build the largest war fleet in the history of the world "to bring the Titan to his knees" . . . It was Tywin Lannister who settled the crown's dispute with the Braavosi (though without "making the Titan kneel," to the king's displeasure), by repaying the monies lent to Jaehaerys II with gold from Casterly Rock, thereby taking the debts upon himself. 

Tywin as Hand settled the dispute over the Iron Throne's debts with the Iron Bank by repaying them with his own gold, and this is from a guy who wouldn't forgive the debt to his house owed by his own grandson and wouldn't contribute a penny towards the extravagant royal wedding despite the knowledge of the crown's debts. Tywin likely could have gone to Braavos to negotiate with the Iron Bank himself. While in Braavos, he also could have made a stop at the House of Black and White, and contracted the FM to kill his father. 

I know some might ask: "Wouldn't anyone have noticed Lannister gold going to the House of Black and White?"

Tywin was publicly known to be repaying the Iron Throne's debts himself at the time, and it largely would have gone unnoticed if large sums of gold from Casterly Rock were being transferred to Braavos. It also goes with Tywin's method of murder, he always keeps his hands clean and has someone else do his dirty work as was the case with Elia and her children.

Tyrion was described as an image of his father, and he would end up resembling in way Tywin would never have wanted: patricide. 

[LordImp]

I find it unlikely that Tywin would kill his father . He's a bad man yes , but killing his father ? No , i really doubt that . 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Nah. The price for offing the Lord of Casterly Rock would have been prohibitively expensive, that's one argument against. Tyrion still walking and breathing is proof that even Tywin Lannister himself would not commit the sin of kinslaying, that's another.

And if "It was Tywin Lannister who settled the crown’s dispute with the Braavosi (though without “making the Titan kneel,” to the king’s displeasure), by repaying the monies lent to Jaehaerys II with gold from Casterly Rock", then by that moment Tytos had to be already dead, and Tywin Lord of Casterly Rock atop of being Hand of the King, otherwise he wouldn't have had the right to dispose with the gold of Casterly Rock.

(It's only said that Aerys II had that brilliant idea in 267, it isn't said that Tywin settled the matter in 267. "It was Tywin Lannister who settled the crown’s dispute" is a part of a long catalogue of all Tywin's accomplishments during his long tenure as Hand).

[Megaera]

I'd always understood that the price of the faceless men was not a fixed fee, but a large proportion of what you have _ the intent being that you had to really want that person dead so much that you would give up almost everything for it.

 

If that's the case then its pretty unlikely tywin hired them and was still able to be a wealthy man.

[Fire Eater]

15 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Nah. The price for offing the Lord of Casterly Rock would have been prohibitively expensive, that's one argument against. Tyrion still walking and breathing is proof that even Tywin Lannister himself would not commit the sin of kinslaying, that's another.

And if "It was Tywin Lannister who settled the crown’s dispute with the Braavosi (though without “making the Titan kneel,” to the king’s displeasure), by repaying the monies lent to Jaehaerys II with gold from Casterly Rock", then by that moment Tytos had to be already dead, and Tywin Lord of Casterly Rock atop of being Hand of the King, otherwise he wouldn't have had the right to dispose with the gold of Casterly Rock.

(It's only said that Aerys II had that brilliant idea in 267, it isn't said that Tywin settled the matter in 267. "It was Tywin Lannister who settled the crown’s dispute" is a part of a long catalogue of all Tywin's accomplishments during his long tenure as Hand).

Tyrion didn't almost bring about the destruction of his house (before Tywin's death). As to the year, Tywin would have needed to settle the matter before Aerys started commissioning the building of a fleet, and you also have to take into account the Iron Bank's reputation when collecting debts. They would want to settle the matter soon, so I doubt they would have let it drag on for years.

Just now, Megaera said:

I'd always understood that the price of the faceless men was not a fixed fee, but a large proportion of what you have _ the intent being that you had to really want that person dead so much that you would give up almost everything for it.

 

If that's the case then its pretty unlikely tywin hired them and was still able to be a wealthy man.

CR's mines were still operating as well as the economic activity of the region with their smallfolk bringing in taxes, and I doubt that what he paid the FM would leave him poor for decades.

[Stormking902]

Tywin is against kin slaying my evidence for this is Tyrion, if he cared enough to off his father because he was a stain on house Lannisters name then Tyrion wouldnt have survived his first week.

 

Second a FM is to costly whem a simple cupbearer with poison could do it 1000000x cheaper then when the deed is done off this said cupbearer. This is Tywin Lannister he knows his way around the real world. 

[theblackdragonI]

I like the theory but it doesn't fit with Tywin's character really as a man who puts family before anything else. As for the point about Tyrion, I think Tywin deep down sees himself in Tyrion a bit or is proud of how smart he is. I don't think their relationship or Tywin and Tytos' was as bad as Sam and Randyll Tarly.

[Lord Lannister]

21 minutes ago, theblackdragonI said:

I like the theory but it doesn't fit with Tywin's character really as a man who puts family before anything else. As for the point about Tyrion, I think Tywin deep down sees himself in Tyrion a bit or is proud of how smart he is. I don't think their relationship or Tywin and Tytos' was as bad as Sam and Randyll Tarly.

Tywin isn't about his actual family. His actions throughout the novels show he doesn't care two bits about his family members as people. He's about his family legacy. There could be an argument made that he thought his father was a such a stain on the family legacy that it would be best for it if he was removed and Tywin had direct control.

[The Dragon Demands]

....I got the feeling that Tywin felt his father was so useless he didn't even deserve to be assassinated.  I mean, Tywin was already *functionally* in control of House Lannister by that point, so what purpose would it serve?  If anything, wouldn't he want his father to live to rub it in his face? "Look at how I rebuilt the Westerlands where you failed". 

[Dorian Martell's son]

3 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

We all know of Tywin's relationship with his father, Tytos. Tywin despised his father to the point that he made a point of being a foil to him. My inquiry is, was Tytos's death of natural causes? 

First a little quote from ADwD:   "And with that coin and the others in his purse, he paid a certain man. Soon after that man's heart gave out. Is that the way of it? Very sad." 

In 267 AC, Lord Tytos Lannister's heart burst as he was climbing a steep flight of steps to the bedchamber of his mistress (his lordship had finally put aside his wet nurse, only to become besotted with the charms of a candlemaker's daughter). So at the age of five-and-twenty, Tywin Lannister became the Lord of Casterly Rock, Shield of Lannisport, and Warden of the West

The descriptions regarding the deaths do sound similar. From WOIAF, we know Tytos's death was in the year 267 AC.  We know something else also happened that year. 

 In 267 AC, after a dispute with the Iron Bank of Braavos regarding certain monies borrowed by his father, he announced that he would build the largest war fleet in the history of the world "to bring the Titan to his knees" . . . It was Tywin Lannister who settled the crown's dispute with the Braavosi (though without "making the Titan kneel," to the king's displeasure), by repaying the monies lent to Jaehaerys II with gold from Casterly Rock, thereby taking the debts upon himself. 

Tywin as Hand settled the dispute over the Iron Throne's debts with the Iron Bank by repaying them with his own gold, and this is from a guy who wouldn't forgive the debt to his house owed by his own grandson and wouldn't contribute a penny towards the extravagant royal wedding despite the knowledge of the crown's debts. Tywin likely could have gone to Braavos to negotiate with the Iron Bank himself. While in Braavos, he also could have made a stop at the House of Black and White, and contracted the FM to kill his father. 

I know some might ask: "Wouldn't anyone have noticed Lannister gold going to the House of Black and White?"

Tywin was publicly known to be repaying the Iron Throne's debts himself at the time, and it largely would have gone unnoticed if large sums of gold from Casterly Rock were being transferred to Braavos. It also goes with Tywin's method of murder, he always keeps his hands clean and has someone else do his dirty work as was the case with Elia and her children.

Tyrion was described as an image of his father, and he would end up resembling in way Tywin would never have wanted: patricide. 

No chance. Tywin refused to kill Tyrion because  of the taboo against kinslaying. He tells Tyrion that if he could prove that Tyrion is not his, he would have Tyrion killed. He would not kill his own father either 

 

[John Doe]

Tywin isn't a kinslayer.

[1000th Lord Commander]

An interesting theory.

But I disagree. While Tywin is all about protecting the family legacy, his father had essentially been nullified as Lord of Casterly Rock. Since I serverely doubt Tywin went to be Hand of the King without some check upon his father's power. Where was Kevan in all this? Joanna? I have no doubt that someone Tywin trusted was at Casterly Rock, running the show behind the scenes. Once that was in place, there was no need to hire a FM when time would prove a cheaper and more effiecient killer

[Lord Lannister]

2 hours ago, John Doe said:

Tywin isn't a kinslayer.

Really? I saw Tywin as one not caring one bit about Westerosi superstitions so long as he wasn't caught.

[Lion of the West]

I don't believe this theory due to Tywin's great work for his legacy. If Tywin isn't ready to kill any other Lannister, I don't see why he would kill Tytos. Especially since Tytos wasn't nearly as much of a problem by the time of his death as he was, or could have been, during for example the Reyne-Tarbeck Rebellion when the threat of Tytos' pardon was always there to bail the rebels out of it.

[Trigger Warning]

3 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Really? I saw Tywin as one not caring one bit about Westerosi superstitions so long as he wasn't caught.

 

Can't really see much of a reason for Tyrion still being alive then. 

[Scootaloo Stark]

5 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Really? I saw Tywin as one not caring one bit about Westerosi superstitions so long as he wasn't caught.

Maybe he's against kinslaying because he thinks it's a bad thing, not because he thinks the gods will punish him? You don't need to be superstitious to stay away from such evil acts.

[hitman47]

He did kill him. Because Tyrion is like Tywin and Tyrion killed his father

[Ygrain]

7 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

Can't really see much of a reason for Tyrion still being alive then. 

Tyrion had no power, while Tytos was nominally still the head of the House Lannister. Tyrion could be forbidden to parade his whore before people, Tytos couldn't.

Plus perhaps, perhaps, Tyrion being the son of Joanna might play a tiny part, as well.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

2 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Tyrion had no power, while Tytos was nominally still the head of the House Lannister. Tyrion could be forbidden to parade his whore before people, Tytos couldn't.

Plus perhaps, perhaps, Tyrion being the son of Joanna might play a tiny part, as well.

You mean, Tyrion being Joanna's killer? Because that's how Tywin thought of him.

[Ygrain]

7 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

You mean, Tyrion being Joanna's killer? Because that's how Tywin thought of him.

Well, we don't have Tywin's PoV to establish that even deep within he totally rejected the idea.