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Crackpot: Did Tywin have Tytos whacked?


Fire Eater

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12 hours ago, Scootaloo Stark said:

Maybe he's against kinslaying because he thinks it's a bad thing, not because he thinks the gods will punish him? You don't need to be superstitious to stay away from such evil acts.

This would be after Castamere and Tarbeck Hall, so that ship's already sailed.

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18 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Really? I saw Tywin as one not caring one bit about Westerosi superstitions so long as he wasn't caught.

Family is everything for him, I doubt he would kill his own. He didn't even kill Tyrion, and I don't think he hated his father more than him.
 

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2 hours ago, John Doe said:

Family is everything for him, I doubt he would kill his own. He didn't even kill Tyrion, and I don't think he hated his father more than him.
 

It wasn't family but the brand that meant everything to him. He had terrible relationships with his two youngest brothers, and he neglected his children. He was concerned with the glory and reputation of his house. 

Tyrion had no power, while Tytos was nominally still the head of the House Lannister. Tyrion could be forbidden to parade his whore before people, Tytos couldn't.

Plus perhaps, perhaps, Tyrion being the son of Joanna might play a tiny part, as well.

Like I said, Tyrion didn't almost bring down House Lannister like Tytos did. What Tyrion did was nominal compared to Tytos before the PW.   

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11 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

It wasn't family but the brand that meant everything to him. He had terrible relationships with his two youngest brothers, and he neglected his children. He was concerned with the glory and reputation of his house. 

Like I said, Tyrion didn't almost bring down House Lannister like Tytos did. What Tyrion did was nominal compared to Tytos before the PW.   

Yeah, this makes me think that Tywin wouldn't bring his house's reputation into disrepute in such a way. After all, he had many chances to kill Tytos, why wait so long? Why not do it earlier?

I think he simply waited for the exact instant Tytos died to take the power he more or less wielded already - if Tywin was going to kill his father he'd have done it in anticipation of losing banner men's respect, not in reaction to it. He's not exactly ethical.

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I’m not sold on this theory, but I agree with those who say that Tywin cared more about his family name than about his family members. He did see Tytos as running House Lannister into the ground, and even as Tywin became the senior partner this could have still been a hindrance.

I don’t think the main/only thing preventing Tywin from killing Tyrion was an opposition to kinslaying or a sense of family loyalty anyway. Personally, I reckon that his relationship with Tyrion is a bit more complex than people often think. He obviously hates him, but he is Joanna’s son (even if you accept the arguments that he isn’t Tywin’s), and therefore there might be some loyalty to him on that score. He’s also obviously very much like Tywin (and Tywin knows it). He’s also consistently proven himself useful, and Tywin does give him important work to do, while trying to stop what he sees as bad behaviour on Tyrion’s part. Tywin’s hardness on Tyrion might almost be, in Tywin’s crazy brain at least, to be a version of tough love.

In short, I think there might be all sorts of emotional reasons why Tywin simply doesn’t murder Tyrion out of hand (as you might expect in a father, even one like Tywin), which might not necessarily transfer over to Tytos.

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If Tywin was indeed involved in Tytos's death, he certainly would not have needed a Faceless Man: he was in a position where such a recourse would never have been needed. A trusted minion, soon to be promoted (posthumously, and without his knowledge) to the "completely trusted" category, would have sufficed...

However I remain convinced that Tytos Lannister died of natural causes.

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I must admit that when reading TWOIAF (specifically the part focusing on the Westerlands and Tytos and to a lesser extent the early part of the reign of the mad king) I had a similar thought about Tywin murdering Tytos pop in my head.

Although Tywin was in nominal control of the Westerlands, it was Tytos ordering the release of Walderan Tarbeck when Tywin was cowering the Lannister vassals and recalling outstanding loans that gave the Reynes and Tarbecks the nerve to rebel. The fact that his fathers mistress was also ordering household knights about and holding audiences without Tytos being present was I'm sure a point of contention with Tywin.

As others have pointed out Tywin values the Lannister Legacy over living Lannisters, and alive Tytos was a liability.

 

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23 hours ago, JLE said:

However I remain convinced that Tytos Lannister died of natural causes.

In fairness, "Death by Tywin Lannister" is pretty close to natural causes in Westeros.

I posted earlier that I'm not convinced and reading others, I think I'm still pretty sure that, while he certainly took advantage of Tytos' death to set about reforming his House, he didn't have Tytos killed.

If he did kill Tytos, he'd have done it much earlier.

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On 22.11.2016 at 1:40 AM, Fire Eater said:

It wasn't family but the brand that meant everything to him. He had terrible relationships with his two youngest brothers, and he neglected his children. He was concerned with the glory and reputation of his house. 

I wouldn't say it was so simple. And it just doesn't make sense that he doesn't kill Tyrion when he despises him so much if he's completely okay with kinslaying. 

His brothers were basically at fault for their relationship, and he didn't neglect his children other than Tyrion. 

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4 hours ago, John Doe said:

I wouldn't say it was so simple. And it just doesn't make sense that he doesn't kill Tyrion when he despises him so much if he's completely okay with kinslaying. 

His brothers were basically at fault for their relationship, and he didn't neglect his children other than Tyrion. 

Tyrion was also Joanna's son, and he didn't almost bring down the house like Tytos did. In Tytos's case, Tywin just likely saw an opportunity. If he tried going to Braavos otherwise, there would be questions as to why. If Tyrion disappeared there would be too many questions as to his disappearance, and Tywin would easily be fingered as having offed him.  

What made you guess it was all his brothers' fault? Because Tywin has such a stellar record with family relationships? :laugh:

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6 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

Tyrion was also Joanna's son,

...and killer...

6 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

and he didn't almost bring down the house like Tytos did. In Tytos's case, Tywin just likely saw an opportunity. If he tried going to Braavos otherwise, there would be questions as to why.

A problem re: timing. If Tywin settled the debt with Lannister gold, then he went to Braavos as Lord of Casterly Rock, Tytos being already dead.

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18 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

Tyrion was also Joanna's son, and he didn't almost bring down the house like Tytos did. In Tytos's case, Tywin just likely saw an opportunity. If he tried going to Braavos otherwise, there would be questions as to why. If Tyrion disappeared there would be too many questions as to his disappearance, and Tywin would easily be fingered as having offed him.  

What made you guess it was all his brothers' fault? Because Tywin has such a stellar record with family relationships? :laugh:

Tyrion was also Joanna's killer. And why should more people suspect him of killing Tyrion than of killing Tytos? By killing Tytos he became lord, by killing Tyrion he would have gained nothing. 

He could have easily killed Tyrion if he had wished, he travelled for years with just a few guards, who were loyal to Tywin, not to him. 

Because Genna said so. And Kevan likes him. 

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Meh.  Why? I mean, why at that point in time?  If it was going to be a Lannister son, why not Kevan? He had more to gain, given the geographical elements; That is, once Tytoes was gone, Kevan could be around to "placehold" Casterly Rock for, er, whomever Tywin's heir would be, while Tywin & family romped in Kings Landing.  Possession somehow ends up being 9/10 of the law, and given Kevan's status before his untimely death, he had actually gotten well on his way to seeing his family becoming THE family (of the Westerlands).

Just putting that out there, dudn't have to be Tywin is all I'm saying.

 

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I don't think Tywin would have wasted the effort to kill Tytos.  He was already the Lord of Casterly Rock in all but name.  Tytos was still the figurehead but essentially all the power had passed to Tywin after he brought down the Reynes and Tarbecks.

Leaving Tytos to his mistresses and presumably plenty of food and wine was probably even better than killing him.  Even when Tywin was away, he probably still had Kevan and Genna to look after things at home.  Why not just let Tytos take the blame when things went bad, and take credit when things went well.

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On 11/25/2016 at 5:14 AM, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

...and killer...

A problem re: timing. If Tywin settled the debt with Lannister gold, then he went to Braavos as Lord of Casterly Rock, Tytos being already dead.

Except Tywin had already staged a coup d'etat when he came back from the Stepstones. He was dictating policy, having a force clear the Westerlands of outlaws, demanding repayment of loans and seizing hostages from those that couldn't an even imprisoning bannermen, Tytos likely wouldn't have made much of a protest if at all. 

 

23 hours ago, John Doe said:

Tyrion was also Joanna's killer. And why should more people suspect him of killing Tyrion than of killing Tytos? By killing Tytos he became lord, by killing Tyrion he would have gained nothing. 

He could have easily killed Tyrion if he had wished, he travelled for years with just a few guards, who were loyal to Tywin, not to him. 

Because Genna said so. And Kevan likes him. 

There would be questions regarding Tyrion's disappearance. Also, the FM are known for making deaths look like natural causes. Everyone just assumed Tytos had a heart attack given he was obese. Tywin was already Lord of CR in all but name. Genna didn't put the blame for Tywin's failed relationships entirely on his brothers, you didn't provide any text to support that. As for Kevan, it isn't telling that he is practically the only person in the family who hasn't been some kind of spat with him? 

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However, he did say it:  In ASoS in a Tyrion chapter Tywin says "You, who killed your mother to come into the world!  You are an ill made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust and low cunning.  Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors since I cannot prove you are not mine."  The quote continues saying something along the line of he's forced to watch Tyrion waddle around in the proud lion and colors of his father and his father before him.  Tywin almost certainly didn't have his father killed, but was undoubtedly relieved when he died.

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On 25/11/2016 at 9:48 PM, John Doe said:

Because Genna said so. And Kevan likes him. 

I don't think Genna said that her brothers were to blame. She simply said her brothers found it hard because Tywin was so dominant. She says they tried different ways to cope with it but it didn’t work for them. It doesn’t necessarily follow that they were “to blame” for any problems in their relationships with Tywin.

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2 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I don't think Genna said that her brothers were to blame. She simply said her brothers found it hard because Tywin was so dominant. She says they tried different ways to cope with it but it didn’t work for them. It doesn’t necessarily follow that they were “to blame” for any problems in their relationships with Tywin.

 

If you put the blame on one of them, the quote does suggest that his brothers were at fault. Or at least, that Tywin was only very indirectly at fault by being so successfull, which isn't really something you can fairly blame him for. 

Quote

"I suppose he has a right to be. It has been hard for Kevan, living all his life in Tywin's shadow. It was hard for all my brothers. That shadow Tywin cast was long and black, and each of them had to struggle to find a little sun. Tygett tried to be his own man, but he could never match your father, and that just made him angrier as the years went by. Gerion made japes. Better to mock the game than to play and lose. But Kevan saw how things stood early on, so he made himself a place by your father's side."

@FireEater: That's also the textual evidence you were asking for. Genna doesn't blame their sour relationship on Tywin's interaction with his brothers, just on the fact that they couldn't handle his success. 

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