Corvinus85 Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 Yeah, I am definitely starting to convert to William = MiB. Regarding Bernard, I'm not sure that was Elsie he killed. It may be that it was her, and unlike Theresa, her body was hidden. Two employee deaths in the park in a short amount time could raise too much suspicion. I think the story is heading towards Maeve ruining Ford's plans, and thus MiB would have played some part in that. Regarding Wyatt, I think the blonde woman is Wyatt, and Teddy's memory of Wyatt was intentionally misleading. Also, some of Wyatt's people are clearly literal monsters. For all those familiar with the Wheel of Time, Ford appears to have created Trollocs. 21 minutes ago, Castel said: Honestly, the only problem for the two timelines is how Dolores is flashing backwards to an even earlier time. Other than that I'd call it a wrap and say he can't be a host. Actually I was thinking that she is flashing forwards. That the present day Dolores is wandering on her own, remembering her journey with William. Granted she did flash backwards when she got into that town, but considering that Ford appears to bring that town back, we may see if she gets there again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 3 minutes ago, dmc515 said: Well, I'm not sure I would characterize the MIB as a sociopath - sociopaths would not care about their wife dying and change their whole life due to the notion they may have caused her suicide. Anyway, I do think it's noteworthy William presumably killed the suffering guy at the beginning of the episode while Dolores was not looking... I think the telling part of the tale was that the MiB went to Westworld year after year to be the villain, as he said to Ford, and hid that side of his character from his family. But his wife knew, he couldn't hide it from her. After her death he did something he had never done before, he sought out a host and killed them for no reason to see what he would feel, and he felt nothing. Otherwise, in previous visits, he played the villain and killed in his role as villain. It was part of the game, the way the park worked, and so any lack of feeling would likely be secondary to the elation of winning the game. Killing Maeve and her daughter was not part of the game. I think, from what I've read about sociopaths, they can fit themselves in society very easily and hide that aspect of their character. There have been stories about how many CEOs of major companies are sociopaths, people driven to success and being successful because they are so brutally ruthless. Makes it easy to lay-off 2,000 people. Sounds like the MiB, 'god' in the outside world, successful CEO. Everything I've read suggests that there are more sociopaths out there than most people realize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astromech Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 18 minutes ago, Corvinus said: I think the story is heading towards Maeve ruining Ford's plans, and thus MiB would have played some part in that. Regarding Wyatt, I think the blonde woman is Wyatt, and Teddy's memory of Wyatt was intentionally misleading. Also, some of Wyatt's people are clearly literal monsters. For all those familiar with the Wheel of Time, Ford appears to have created Trollocs. Haha, I initially thought of that first one as the minotaur guarding the labyrinth. I'm curious if anyone was pausing the scene with Sizemore and Hale to try and read the storyline on the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 18 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said: Otherwise, in previous visits, he played the villain and killed in his role as villain. It was part of the game, the way the park worked, and so any lack of feeling would likely be secondary to the elation of winning the game. Killing Maeve and her daughter was not part of the game. I see your point, but for me that is more reflective of the fact he has always viewed the park as a game. When you adopt that perspective over years and years, I don't think it's surprising killing a woman and a child would be all that much different than all the other hosts he has already dispatched - basically desensitizing him. My interpretation of the scene is, if we take the MIB's story as face value, he clearly felt remorse/compunction/guilt upon his wife's apparent suicide. In fact, he's so racked with guilt he's chosen to abandon his self-described god-like life to take this journey of self-discovery. Moreover, he's looking for a deeper meaning in a place that fairly explicitly is bereft of any. Like you said, a sociopath's utopia is one in which he can essentially appease any whim or desire - like a CEO in the real world or any guest in Westworld. But such social status does not satisfy the MIB in the real world and he's searching for more in Westworld. Basically, it boils down to that old adage, "if you think you're insane, you're probably not insane." The MIB is actually concerned he's a sociopath, which means he probably is not a sociopath (Dexter Morgan aside). But that's just my take on the MIB, and, I suppose, sociopaths - it's not like I've had any advanced training on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay B. Posted November 21, 2016 Author Share Posted November 21, 2016 4 hours ago, Corvinus said: Yeah, I am definitely starting to convert to William = MiB. Regarding Bernard, I'm not sure that was Elsie he killed. It may be that it was her, and unlike Theresa, her body was hidden. Two employee deaths in the park in a short amount time could raise too much suspicion. Why don't you think it was Elsie? I'm hoping you're right, and we obviously(I hope)will see more of what happened to her but it's looking grim right now. Maybe she'll become a host like many thought they would do to Theresa, or Ford will just keep stalling about her. I'm kind of torn on the Maeve storyline too and agree that it can be a stretch at times when she's working with her dudes and the decisions they make, but whatever I guess. Thandie Newton has been killing it though. Anyways, a lot of shit went down and I definitely have to rewatch this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 Yeah, I love Maeve's character and Thandie's acting, but her story arc went haywire this episode...too much, too fast, too hard to believe it. I dislike Felix and Sylvester being hosts, but the names seem like a dead giveaway, but why give them personalities and such where they break the rules? It could be that medical technology is advanced enough that such a knife wound could be cauterized like that....don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterfell is Burning Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 Yeah, sorry, still not buying the "William is the MIB" non-sense just because MIB recognized the host- why wouldn't MIB recognize pretty much every host, specially a very hot one that introduces the park to everyone (in very intimate ways, more often than not)? Also, Teddy had in this episode EXACTLY the same flashback to MIB that Dolores was having earlier- it's not only absurd Dolores had flashbacks to MIB while with William and Logan, while they're supposed to be the same person, but also Teddy having the same flashbacks means nothing. We also saw Dolores having flashbacks to Ford as an old man with William. We also know saw that old hosts were a lot less complex with Old Bill. And seems pretty clear now that MIB is a bastard that didn't care for much and always saw Westworld as just a game, while William couldn't be further from it. As for Felix, yeah, while I can see him helping Maeve, there's helping and then there's giving her God-like powers and the possibility of killing humans. That's just too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvinus85 Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 2 hours ago, Ramsay B. said: Why don't you think it was Elsie? I'm hoping you're right, and we obviously(I hope)will see more of what happened to her but it's looking grim right now. Maybe she'll become a host like many thought they would do to Theresa, or Ford will just keep stalling about her. My initial reaction was why would Elsie's death be covered up, and not Theresa's too. But now that I think more about, Theresa's death had to be revealed in order for Ford to remove the obstacle that the board was trying to impede him with (the faulty coding) and re-instate Bernard. On the other hand, Elsie's death would raise more suspicions, so she is "on vacation" for now. The part that is a head scratcher for me is the place where Elsie met her demise. If that terminal was used by Theresa to smuggle out data, why would Ford have Elsie killed. Unless the whole thing was planned ahead of time by Ford to lay the blame on Theresa for everything wrong with the hosts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 Killing Theresa was super high risk, he could have thwarted the board's desires by simply exposing what she had already done since the board isn't apparently willing to admit they're trying to get his code. The woman from the board I assume knows that Ford killed Theresa, she seems underwhelmed by the revelation that his idea of blood sacrifice is quite a bit more real than hers, I thought that was a false note.....she sees Ford is willing to kill, she sees that her plan was not so good since Ford saw through it from the beginning, but still she blithely goes on to recruit somebody else...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ded As Ned Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 8 hours ago, Astromech said: Haha, I initially thought of that first one as the minotaur guarding the labyrinth. I thought it was a nice shout-out to my labyrinth ideology from before. Has anyone mentioned how QA dude is on to Bernard's nonchalance over Theresa's death? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterfell is Burning Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 29 minutes ago, Ded As Ned said: Has anyone mentioned how QA dude is on to Bernard's nonchalance over Theresa's death? I noticed that too. And I doubt Ford knows that the Hemsworth brother was aware of the relationship, that might throw a wrench into his plans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arch-MaesterPhilip Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 If Arnold is in the code I think he's going to manifest himself when everything is uploaded into Peter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ded As Ned Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 10 minutes ago, Arch-MaesterPhilip said: If Arnold is in the code I think he's going to manifest himself when everything is uploaded into Peter. I think there's a good chance of that. I think someone had speculated once that all the gen 1 hosts needed to get together to build the complete Arnold code... but now it looks like the board has done it for them in one handy package. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 About Bernard. Perhaps he didn't kill Elsie, he just choked her and they locked her up, telling her that they were hunting down the culprit and they couldn't let her out and accidentally spill the beans. But that seems unlikely, surely? Why would she stay silent? It seems obvious that Bernard is having flashbacks because he has killed two people he loves/respects in the same week. He seemed to have a strong collegial relationship with Elsie, and we're seeing traumatic events, the same kinds of events that shake up humans, are shaking up hosts. I think Bernard could lose control in the next episode or two. I wonder if decades of loyalty to Ford will be overridden by what, essentially, is Ford's betrayal of him. The hosts have powerful code that tells them they cannot hurt guests, so instructing Bernard to kill, probably twice, would have the effect of turning his world order on it's head. I also realized that Maeve's ability to change the storyline by naming the host, "the Bartender", "the Sheriff", and whatever she called the saloon girls, is not the power Ford has. He does seem to be able to control them with his thoughts. Or could he be doing it with the way he looks at them? I also am now beginning to wonder, as others have, if Ford is a host. I mean, Ford could be alive, he could be the man in the maze, and he's used a series of gradually aging hosts to do the day to day work under his direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 I think anyone still refusing to consider that William=MiB is at least a strong possibility is simply sticking their head in the sand against an idea they hope isn't true at this point. Sure, it's entirely possible that someone other than William would remember the host from before, but narratively there's no reason for them to show it to us unless they want us to connect them. I'm beginning to entertain the possibility that Ford is setting Maeve up, possibly to be Wyatt somehow, though it seems convoluted even for this show. 20 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said: I also realized that Maeve's ability to change the storyline by naming the host, "the Bartender", "the Sheriff", and whatever she called the saloon girls, is not the power Ford has. He does seem to be able to control them with his thoughts. Or could he be doing it with the way he looks at them? I didn't go back to check every instance but she seems to be playing with her necklace when she gives the commands. Whatever control Ford has is much more ingrained and doesn't just extend to the hosts, he also controlled the piano with a gesture in the conversation with MiB... but it doesn't work on Maeve when she's having her breakdown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxom 1974 Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 13 hours ago, Trebla said: I am so utterly confused...but I LIKE IT! We did get some answers. Bernard was never human and that surprised me. He appeared to kill Elsie though I'm gonna have to go back and re-watch the scene where she was trying to call him and she got attacked. Also, Theresa being confirmed dead was a shock. So who is Ford building under his secret house? What is REALLY bothering me, though, is how no one seems to see in real life or in the park what Maeve is doing. Earlier episodes seemed to indicate that security was aware of everything the Hosts were doing and pulled them accordingly. eta: It was bothering me all episode where had I seen the actress who is playing the new Clementine: Lili Simmons. She came out in season 1 of True Detective, playing Hart's (Woody Harrelson) second mistress. I do hope the old Clementine gets to come back. Something is certainly still wonky with the storytelling and Maeve. I know there is a point, but there is still a piece missing... 1 hour ago, Arch-MaesterPhilip said: If Arnold is in the code I think he's going to manifest himself when everything is uploaded into Peter. I'm making a guess that it is the Abernathy robot that is the Arnold Bot...that he's the one picked you get the info uploaded...seems fishy... My take on timeliness now: Approx 35 years earlier - the park is getting ready to open, but Arnold has been tinkering with the code and awakens Dolores, who for reason unknown perpetrated a massacre of the town and then kills herself. Arnold is thought dead also during this incident. Approximately 30 years ago - the reprogrammed Dolores is part of the park (Ford doesn't like to get rid of a pretty face remember) and she meets William and they go on their adventure...oh because the hidden Arnold has been tinkering with her head remotely and she is looking for him. She will seemingly be killed, perhaps by Logan, precipitating a reaction from William that leads to his turn into the MiB. He will spend the next thirty years playing the villain in an attempt to reawaken what he believes to know is inside Dolores. Present Day - Arnold's hidden manipulations have resulted in Maeve's awakening after the MiB has killed her. Thus he seeks Dolores again her location in the present story is really the biggest whole in the two timelines theory). He's using Teddy to help get to her. They're all going to find out that Wyatt is really Arnold... There are some holes in this, but it train of thought... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S John Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 2 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said: As for Felix, yeah, while I can see him helping Maeve, there's helping and then there's giving her God-like powers and the possibility of killing humans. That's just too much. Girlfriend and I were contemplating this last night. Felix's actions don't make a lot of sense and I'm thinking there is more to the story with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ded As Ned Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 Ed Harris confirmed for season 2! Gonna put on my tinfoil hat here for a moment... but we have Wyatt, a big bad whom we've never seen. We've got the MiB, who tries to be a deserving big bad... but has no name. Could the role of Wyatt be waiting for MiB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiDisaster Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 We have seen Wyatt though, haven't we? In Teddy's "flashbacks" when they're shooting up the town? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 Yes, we have seen Wyatt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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