HBO's Westworld(v4)- What door? [spoilers]

[Nictarion]

On 11/21/2016 at 0:23 AM, Astromech said:

Haha, she'll always be Rebecca Bowman to me.

Same here. Lili Simmons is an angel. I hope we see her in more episodes. Otherwise I would have preferred she had played Clementine #1.

[Kindly Old Man]

Maeve is much less sympathetic now that she's shown herself to be a huge hypocrite.

[Darzin]

3 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

She tells Teddy to kill the MiB. He can't. She comes over and says, 'It takes a while, and we don't have the time, let me help you', and then stabs him in the shoulder with an arrow. It's not a killing wound, it's a wound that causes pain and shock. Trauma. Trauma seems to be an element leading to self-awareness. As the MiB watches, she then says to Teddy (I first thought she was speaking to the MiB) something about 'You've been gone a long time, Theodore. Welcome back to the fold. Wyatt needs you to." [not sure about the last phrase]

Now, I'm puzzled. When Teddy gets killed for the first time and Ford has a chat with him, Ford gives him more of a back story, because Teddy always tells Dolores he can't run away with her because he has things to look after, but he doesn't actually know what those matters are. The back story is the Wyatt story.  The Wyatt story is the new storyline Ford has been working on with Bernard, the one that's disrupting so many of the hosts' storylines in the park. That tells me Teddy was not there at the massacre at all, he must be a newer model.

So, technically speaking, Dolores is not Wyatt because Wyatt is a brand new story. Ford may have used the details from 30 or 34 years ago to form the basis of his Wyatt storyline. but it's all smoke and mirrors to deflect attention from what really happened.

Or, that's a crackpot theory and everyone on Reddit is correct.  

This is a very clever catch. That bit of dialogue seems to be saying he can't kill him yet and the trauma is "help,"  Also looking at Wyatt's men I wonder if these are rogue hosts they use a lot of melee weapons which makes sense since guns and hurt guests, and they don't seem to die form bullets. We've seen from the milkman bandit dude that hosts can take quite a bit of damage. I wonder if they attack other hosts to get parts? and stitch themselves back together which is why they seem like zombies. The only hole in this is Ford making them into a narrative, but that could be a ruse maybe he's just using the MIB to clear out these rogues. Also Dolores could totally be Wyatt assuming timeline trickery. Teddy's memories look a lot like Dolores' memories and we know Teddy's aren't reliable we've seen to versions one where only Wyatt kills people and one where Teddy and Wyatt kill people together, there's no reason the next one couldn't be Dolores.

 

Finally whether any of that is true or not there is something up with Wyatt's men those weird moans make them seem supernatural, and definitely more then just cultists.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

what if william=MiB, then Logan=Wyatt?

[Darzin]

Or the other way Logan is MiB, William and Dolores are king and queen of the damned. 

Also this series has some nice parallels to the Prince of Nothing, the residents of the world are just playthings to the gods and the hosts need trauma to remember.  

[Biter]

5 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

Another thing I noticed, when Maeve wakes up and starts talking to Sylvester, she says to him that she's smarter than he is, even though you're a 14. For those who still doubt Sylvester is a robot, there's the proof.

 

Finally, OMG, surely Hale has chosen the worst possible host to upload the codes into. And doesn't she know about the explosive charge in the spine that every host has? Obviously not, since she wants Abernathy to leave the park on the train. Is that why Maeve told us about it?

 

While I strongly believe that Felix and Sylvester are hosts, I think Maeve said something like "I was smarter than you, even as a 14", referring to her earlier setting.

 

Hale might be aware of the explosive charge, I just don't know what her motives are. Would a host going out into the world show that Westworld needs changes in management (now that Charlotte's and Theresa's plan failed horribly)?

[polishgenius]

I reckon Hale knows full well that Abernathy has no chance of succeeding in whatever plan she has for him, and is just trying to goad Ford into another murder attempt on writer-person-whose-name-I-forget that she can hopefully catch this time.

It's a silly plan anyway. I mean, surely security monitor everyone coming out of the park and would therefore twig that he's a host immediately? Otherwise she could just walk out with the data herself.

[Fez]

6 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

Another thing I noticed, when Maeve wakes up and starts talking to Sylvester, she says to him that she's smarter than he is, even though you're a 14. For those who still doubt Sylvester is a robot, there's the proof.

She says she was smarter than him even when she was a 14. In other words, she could've outsmarted him even without the upgrade. She's calling him dumb, not calling him a robot.

[Free Northman Reborn]

So I have finally caught up to Westworld, after starting about 8 weeks late.

Question: Does the Man in Black own a substantial shareholding in the Park? When he hinted that he helped save it from financial destruction at some point in the past, does that hint that he is a part owner of the Park?

[Cas Stark]

I wasn't too keen on Hale randomly choosing Abernathy, like, damn girl, you've got some bad luck.  Too convenient.

I will HATE it if Delores is Wyatt, I'm ready to accept William as the Mib after the park has totally corroded his soul and turned him into such a sadistic POS that it seeped into the RW and his family hated and feared him.  But, D and W?  That's too much and so so contrived.  

[Ded As Ned]

5 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

So I have finally caught up to Westworld, after starting about 8 weeks late.

Question: Does the Man in Black own a substantial shareholding in the Park? When he hinted that he helped save it from financial destruction at some point in the past, does that hint that he is a part owner of the Park?

It's not been conclusively revealed... but I think the general consensus is that he's a higher up in Delos (if not CEO) or some other sort of big financial backer of the park.  The bit where he's in the jail and the "that man gets whatever he wants" bit kind of solidified it for me.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Next question.

What can hosts actually do to visitors? They can't shoot them. But it seems they can physically harm them. But what would happen if Teddy did pull that trigger at the end of the last episode? Would the bullet actually harm the Man in Black?

 

 

 

[Fragile Bird]

39 minutes ago, Fez said:

She says she was smarter than him even when she was a 14. In other words, she could've outsmarted him even without the upgrade. She's calling him dumb, not calling him a robot.

I will listen to that segment again.....

That,  and the description Felix or Sylvester gave of the levels. Or was it Elsie?

[Corvinus85]

13 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

I will listen to that segment again.....

That,  and the description Felix or Sylvester gave of the levels. Or was it Elsie?

Fez is right, she said "when I was 14".

[Ded As Ned]

18 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Next question.

What can hosts actually do to visitors? They can't shoot them. But it seems they can physically harm them. But what would happen if Teddy did pull that trigger at the end of the last episode? Would the bullet actually harm the Man in Black?

The further a guest goes away from Sweetwater, the more physical harm a guest might experience.  But according Aeden at discoverwestworld.com, the only weapons allowed in the park are Delos issued, and those can't harm guests.  If you go talk to Aeden at the website I mentioned, a lot of the basic questions can be answered.

[Ded As Ned]

37 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Next question.

What can hosts actually do to visitors? They can't shoot them. But it seems they can physically harm them. But what would happen if Teddy did pull that trigger at the end of the last episode? Would the bullet actually harm the Man in Black?

The further a guest goes away from Sweetwater, the more physical harm a guest might experience.  But according to Aeden at discoverwestworld.com, the only weapons allowed in the park are Delos issued, and those can't harm do grievous injury to guests.  If you go talk to Aeden at the website I mentioned, a lot of the basic questions can be answered.

[Corvinus85]

25 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Next question.

What can hosts actually do to visitors? They can't shoot them. But it seems they can physically harm them. But what would happen if Teddy did pull that trigger at the end of the last episode? Would the bullet actually harm the Man in Black?

 

 

 

Hosts can shoot them, as the MiB was shot many times before, including by Teddy. But the bullet is considerably slowed down when propelled at a guest. So even if a host actually wants to kill a guest, there are safety features in the guns that prevent that.

Edit: ninja'd

[RumHam]

12 hours ago, karaddin said:

First bold - my point is that we know Stubbs sent someone out, there is the first level misdirection of it being someone else that tries to collect her and William stops, but my point is the guy Stubbs did send would have no reason not to bring her in if she's not with a guest. It isnt necessarily the interaction we see, but it would have happened unless you're positing that wasn't Delores at all and no one has noticed she's gone massively off loop without a guest and they've not noticed even once? I find that much harder to believe.

Second bold - she separates from him in the crowd then they don't see each other till the next morning from what we see on screen. That can go either way.

Yeah I guess that could work, I was imagining that they'd be sleeping in the same building at that it would seem really weird if Delores just wandered off for the night and showed up the next morning with no explanation where she had been. 

From an interview with the director of the last episode:

Quote

 

Bernard asks Ford if he's ever hurt anyone other than Theresa. Ford says no, and as he does, Bernard experiences a vision in which he's choking out Elsie. Some are taking that as confirmation that Bernard killed Elsie (Shannon Woodward). Is that the right read?

Very nicely done. (Laughs.) Let me refer you to your earlier question about Lost. There's a form of storytelling that I happen to be somewhat partial to, which embraces the thrill of ambiguity. So I will only say this: I will answer your question with this question. Are we in fact sure that that was Elsie?

 

So maybe there's still hope for Elsie?

Also I was thinking the Man in Black's description of killing Maeve and her daughter seems like it could be a pretty big mark against the "he is an older William" theory. He talks about how he'd never seen a host be "truly alive" before, when William seems to be witnessing Delores having her own awakening. Though I guess it's possible he's talking about something other than what's going on with Delores. That the awakening caused by pain and suffering is different than Delores just going off loop and suddenly being able to shoot other hosts.

Also he says that was when the maze was revealed to him. I can't remember, is William aware of "the maze?" has Delores used those words to him? 

[Jaxom 1974]

41 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Yeah I guess that could work, I was imagining that they'd be sleeping in the same building at that it would seem really weird if Delores just wandered off for the night and showed up the next morning with no explanation where she had been. 

From an interview with the director of the last episode:

So maybe there's still hope for Elsie?

Also I was thinking the Man in Black's description of killing Maeve and her daughter seems like it could be a pretty big mark against the "he is an older William" theory. He talks about how he'd never seen a host be "truly alive" before, when William seems to be witnessing Delores having her own awakening. Though I guess it's possible he's talking about something other than what's going on with Delores. That the awakening caused by pain and suffering is different than Delores just going off loop and suddenly being able to shoot other hosts.

Also he says that was when the maze was revealed to him. I can't remember, is William aware of "the maze?" has Delores used those words to him? 

Couple things:

Even if Dolores told William about the maze in the past, it doesn't mean he's seen it or will see it.  Then if it was finally revealed to him thirty years later that could fit...

I believe that the Dolores and William in the past thirty years will not see the complete awakening of Dolores.  Something will, presumably Ford, will stop her before she reaches that point.  Thus when the MiB saw it in Maeve, it was the first time he saw it fully realized.  

[polishgenius]

I think it could play out that he sees the beginning of Dolores' awakening and we already see he's falling for her, and when she's set firmly back on her loop he has a mental break and goes full black-hat nihilistic hedonist on the park. Then, years later, when he sees Maeve react the way she does, he realises that maybe hosts can be induced to real feeling and goes on the quest to find the maze to see for himself.