HBO's Westworld(v4)- What door? [spoilers]

[Cas Stark]

1 hour ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Couple things:

Even if Dolores told William about the maze in the past, it doesn't mean he's seen it or will see it.  Then if it was finally revealed to him thirty years later that could fit...

I believe that the Dolores and William in the past thirty years will not see the complete awakening of Dolores.  Something will, presumably Ford, will stop her before she reaches that point.  Thus when the MiB saw it in Maeve, it was the first time he saw it fully realized.  

She seems pretty obviously "awakening" and has been since she left on her trip w/William.  So, it's going to be a stretch if William/MiB didn't see any android awakening until he killed Maeve's daughter, that is going to be a big inconsistency as far as I can see it.  

[mafro987daboss]

Rarely comment on 'other' shows on this forum (unless Hannibal ever returns!), but between this, GOT and The Leftovers, HBO still has it over Netflix as the best platform for Drama.

I keep on seeing this Dolores=Wyatt theory but can't get my head round it- if someone could explain it that would be great. 

[polishgenius]

8 minutes ago, mafro987daboss said:

I keep on seeing this Dolores=Wyatt theory but can't get my head round it- if someone could explain it that would be great. 

There's nothing pointing to it, specifically, but I think I'm not the only one taking the two-timeline theory, realising that if it's true then we haven't seen present-Dolores since she got shot and wandered off in mysterious, commented-on-by-the-staff circumstances, seeing that they appear to be building to something regarding the identity of Wyatt, and adding a touch of 'what would the writers dream up to best surprise and shock us' to come to the conclusion that it's a possibility.

However, for it to work it would mean that either (a) Ford, in reworking her to make her Wyatt has missed her ability to kill live things, (b) he specifically induced that ability on purpose via the reveries (which would explain why he's being such a drama queen about the new plotline, to be fair, if he's planning to suddenly introduce real-real danger-of-death) or (c) he's programmed it out of her, wasting that section entirely. So it is an idea that requires some legwork to make it fit neatly.

[Jaxom 1974]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

She seems pretty obviously "awakening" and has been since she left on her trip w/William.  So, it's going to be a stretch if William/MiB didn't see any android awakening until he killed Maeve's daughter, that is going to be a big inconsistency as far as I can see it.  

I'm suggesting that the Dolores is seeing is only at the brink of True consciousness and the end of their time frame will result in her not being able to get over the final hurdle, whatever that may be...

As the MiB, William saw with Maeve that is was possible to achieve true consciousness, thus he seeks out Dolores again and the secret of the maze for her sake...

[dooog]

Question... I can't quite remember... but when William and Logan were first introduced, William definitely met Clem, but was Maeve there as the madame? would be a spanner in the MiB / William theory if it's true that Maeve's only been in the brothel for a year or so.

[Gertrude]

14 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

 'It takes a while, and we don't have the time, let me help you', and then stabs him in the shoulder with an arrow. It's not a killing wound, it's a wound that causes pain and shock. Trauma. Trauma seems to be an element leading to self-awareness.

This is what the MiB has been doing all along, I think. He drags Dolores into the barn and tells her "I don't want it to be easy, I want you to fight.' That's pretty stretchy, but it does fit when we get more puzzle pieces. He wants to know about the maze and shoots Lawrence's wife which triggers a message from the daughter. I think it was the MiB who said at one point that the hosts are most real when they are in pain. Someone said it if not him. So yeah, it's been there all along, we're just seeing it really being spelled out for us now towards the end.

Actually, this episode set me back on my heels a little. With the trauma=awareness thing going on, I was being pretty forgiving with the MiB and his actions. Now we learn that he does have a monster inside him and I don't like that. I thought Will (MiB) would get more grey, but never 'shoot a child to feel something' dark. His wife committed suicide because the monster was lurking just under the surface. That's pretty damn dark.

15 minutes ago, dooog said:

Question... I can't quite remember... but when William and Logan were first introduced, William definitely met Clem, but was Maeve there as the madame? would be a spanner in the MiB / William theory if it's true that Maeve's only been in the brothel for a year or so.

No, Maeve was never seen with William or Logan.

And I wasn't a huge fan of this episode much. The Maeve thing just needs to move along. I also felt the MiB was too much of an exposition dump in this one. I know, we need a bridge to get to the end, but they've been flowing really well up til now. It just feels like filler like none of the other episodes did. And I couldn't care less who Wyatt is, I just hope it's worth it.

[Winterfell is Burning]

On 21/11/2016 at 2:38 PM, Jaxom 1974 said:

Something is certainly still wonky with the storytelling and Maeve.  I know there is a point, but there is still a piece missing...

I'm making a guess that it is the Abernathy robot that is the Arnold Bot...that he's the one picked you get the info uploaded...seems fishy...

My take on timeliness now:

Approx 35 years earlier - the park is getting ready to open, but Arnold has been tinkering with the code and awakens Dolores, who for reason unknown perpetrated a massacre of the town and then kills herself. Arnold is thought dead also during this incident. 

Approximately 30 years ago - the reprogrammed Dolores is part of the park (Ford doesn't like to get rid of a pretty face remember) and she meets William and they go on their adventure...oh because the hidden Arnold has been tinkering with her head remotely and she is looking for him.  She will seemingly be killed, perhaps by Logan, precipitating a reaction from William that leads to his turn into the MiB.  He will spend the next thirty years playing the villain in an attempt to reawaken what he believes to know is inside Dolores.

Present Day - Arnold's hidden manipulations have resulted in Maeve's awakening after the MiB has killed her.  Thus he seeks Dolores again her location in the present story is really the biggest whole in the two timelines theory). He's using Teddy to help get to her.  They're all going to find out that Wyatt is really Arnold...

 

There are some holes in this, but it train of thought...

Well, not so much the holes, but the flaws are:

1- 3 freakin' timelines is too much;

2- The MIB WASN'T trying to find the maze until his wife died. Before that, Westworld was just his vacation. He knows everything about the park because he has been everywhere, not just the Dolores related parts. There's no indication he had any sort of special connection to her- see that he went to Lawrence , then Teddy, looking for the maze, nothing related to Dolores necessarily. He also didn't try to kill Dolores or anyone related to her, just a child and Maeve, who are unrelated.

Hell, the whole point of him killing the child was to see if he felt something- if he was in love and obsessed with Dolores for 30 years, he wouldn't need that.

I believe MIB is exactly who the writers said he is- an obsessive gamer looking for the next level, whatever that is.

 

[Winterfell is Burning]

Also, for the people saying Felix and Sylvester are hosts- what would be the point?

Bernard being a host makes sense for Ford because he gets someone in an essential position that is completely loyal to him, and also can give unique insight into the hosts. What the hell would be the point of having two random employees that do mostly minor work?

[RumHam]

23 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Well, not so much the holes, but the flaws are:

1- 3 freakin' timelines is too much;

Well it wouldn't really be three timelines, so much as two timelines with flashbacks to a major past event. 

24 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

2- The MIB WASN'T trying to find the maze until his wife died. Before that, Westworld was just his vacation. He knows everything about the park because he has been everywhere, not just the Dolores related parts. There's no indication he had any sort of special connection to her- see that he went to Lawrence , then Teddy, looking for the maze, nothing related to Dolores necessarily. He also didn't try to kill Dolores or anyone related to her, just a child and Maeve, who are unrelated.

So you think when he dragged Dolores to the barn in the first episode he was just having a bit of sadistic fun before starting his maze quest? Cause I figured he had started with her, we just didn't see exactly what information he got from her in that barn. 

[HexMachina]

On 21/11/2016 at 5:02 AM, Castel said:

I'm actively rooting against Maeve now, and I feel kinda bad about it. 

It might have something to do with her going rogue starting off on the wrong foot with me or just that I'm far more interested in how magnificent bastards Ford and Man-in-Black do, I dunno.

Nah, fuck that shit. Kill them all Maeve and laugh while you do it.  

we have Penny Dreadful watchers here right? Someone who watched that please tell me they saw similarities between Maeve and a character from there?

Anyway, substantive stuff, now that my Maeve fangirling is over (well, save for one or two comments)...

Did not expect Bernard to be the one who killed Elsie. I'm confused how that works out though. So, she called him while he was with Theresa. Then he leaves. But I thought the way the scenes were made it seem not much time passed. I might need to rewatch to make sense of that, the details are somewhat hazy. (Sad we don't get to see any more of Elsie though)

Maeve was my favourite storyline, and the whole thing with Felix and Sylvester helping her makes more sense now; Felix has feelings for her. And, he has stopped viewing her as non-human. He wanted her to be free. (How he feels after she sliced Sylvester I don't know). 

Not sure how she will get her army, or what Hector taking the safe has to do with it. Really loved the shooting and her fleeing though. And the MiB flashbacks were both interesting and very sad. Curious how this will go next episode.

Delores and William, I still subscribe to one timeline theory. The way I see it, they got to the town, which we saw from Delores POV. She was accessing it as a memory and nothing more. Wasn't apparent at first, until she was back in her dress and walking through the town, but as soon as she "recognised the path" she went into a memory. We see all of this from Delores' point of view, so it isn't until William snaps her out of the memory that we see the truth. 

As to her shooting the town, I imagine that was Arnold's doing - his attempt to destroy Ford's work maybe? I'm not really sure about this bit.

MiB's backstory was pretty lacklustre. Don't really buy it as a compelling motivation for this whole obsession with the maze and stuff. It was really vague so I hope it's fleshed out somewhat. Either that or I just didn't really understand it. 

[Castel]

42 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Nah, fuck that shit. Kill them all Maeve and laugh while you do it.  

we have Penny Dreadful watchers here right? Someone who watched that please tell me they saw similarities between Maeve and a character from there?

MiB's backstory was pretty lacklustre. Don't really buy it as a compelling motivation for this whole obsession with the maze and stuff. It was really vague so I hope it's fleshed out somewhat. Either that or I just didn't really understand it. 

If it's the Penny Dreadful character I'm thinking of Maeve seems to be doing better and getting by with fewer monologues

As for the MiB: I thought he was dying, it would explain the anxiousness Ford was poking him over. Now there's no real time limit for him to justify going crazy.

[RumHam]

23 minutes ago, Castel said:

As for the MiB: I thought he was dying, it would explain the anxiousness Ford was poking him over. Now there's no real time limit for him to justify going crazy.

I do think he plans on dying. He said at one point that he was never leaving the park this time. I think either he plans to die as a means of carrying out Arnold's mission, or he hopes to become an "enlightened through trauma" host and live forever.

To that end I could see the WIlliam is a host version of MiB theory working better than the two timelines theory. Either because MiB wants to make his younger host self self-aware and then somehow upload himself into him. Or because Ford created host versions of William and Logan specifically to poke at the MiB. Obviously Ford wants MiB to succeed, and why is a huge question mark at this point. So it's possible Ford helped MiB continue on so he could eventually meet his younger robot self.

Edit: I don't think I was very clear here in my original post, but the idea was that it'd be similar to how Theresa thought Bernard brought her to the hidden room despite his programming, but in reality Ford told him to bring her there. We're meant to think Ford wants the Man in Black to succeed for some reason. But it's possible he wants to lure the MiB to a specific site just to reveal something to him and have him choked out by someone he thought he had a connection with.

As usual, I'm just thinking out loud. 

[HexMachina]

1 hour ago, Castel said:

If it's the Penny Dreadful character I'm thinking of Maeve seems to be doing better and getting by with fewer monologues

As for the MiB: I thought he was dying, it would explain the anxiousness Ford was poking him over. Now there's no real time limit for him to justify going crazy.

It is  

really though it was the scene where Ford wipes her memory. It was basically Lily being threatened by Frankenstein lobotomising her in the asylum. Only Ford actually went through with it

 

[Winterfell is Burning]

 

2 hours ago, RumHam said:

Well it wouldn't really be three timelines, so much as two timelines with flashbacks to a major past event. 

So you think when he dragged Dolores to the barn in the first episode he was just having a bit of sadistic fun before starting his maze quest? Cause I figured he had started with her, we just didn't see exactly what information he got from her in that barn. 

Considering he's chasing the maze since the year before, we don't even know for sure if Dolores was the first character he sought. But he likely just thought she would have information, being the eldest host. There's really no indication he cared for her anymore than he did for Teddy or Lawrence.

 

 

[Fragile Bird]

Thought du jour.

You know I think that Felix and Sylvester are hosts.

What if Felix is making the changes to Maeve on Ford's instructions?

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

11 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

Thought du jour.

You know I think that Felix and Sylvester are hosts.

What if Felix is making the changes to Maeve on Ford's instructions?

I hate that part of the story but I can see them acting under the instructions of Ford. 

[karaddin]

So thinking on it some more I think one of two things: Either that wasn't Elsie we saw being choked by Bernard in that flash of memory or it wasn't Ford that ordered him to do it. I thought whoever took her was acting for Arnold, and the information Elsie was learning doesn't seem a threat to Ford. He has much more direct and easily hidden/explained ways of updating the hosts. 

I lean to the first option - it wasn't Elsie - as Ford definitely seemed to be lying to Bernard. I think we are meant to think it was though.

[Cas Stark]

If it wasn't Elsie who was it that looked just like her getting choked exactly where we last saw her?

Maeve is better than Lily.  That is all.  I still think they've progressed her story too quickly.

[unJon]

13 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

If it wasn't Elsie who was it that looked just like her getting choked exactly where we last saw her?

Maeve is better than Lily.  That is all.  I still think they've progressed her story too quickly.

Anyone have a screen grab of the person getting choked?

[Spark7]

10 minutes ago, unJon said:

Anyone have a screen grab of the person getting choked?

I compared the outfit (the first shot shows the boots and pants) and it looks like Elsie's. Face also looks like her so... I really don't know who else it could be that fits in the story.