HBO's Westworld(v4)- What door? [spoilers]

[Free Northman Reborn]

I just watched the fascinating scene between Ford and the MIB again. So much depth in that conversation, just screaming to be unpacked.

It seems clear to me that the MIB suspects that Ford might be a host. And that Arnold is the true creator of the Park, the originator of its deepest secrets. He all but states that Ford is just something left behind by Arnold (a host), and that like the map he found on the inside of the slain host's scalp, Ford might have similar secrets inside himself.

He also clearly says that he saved the park 35 years ago. Either through his actions as William, or through financial rescue - or probably both.

I'm sure I'm missing loads more from that conversation. I'll watch it again.

As an aside, the MIB playing the role of the devil in the Garden of Eden is not lost on me, as he promises to "free" the inhabitants of the Garden from a controlling creator. Only in this case, I think the roles are reversed, with the "creator" really being the evil one, and the MIB being the saviour.

[Cas Stark]

-I like the idea of MiB story being to throw off Ford, but I sort of doubt it, I think it will turn out to be a weak motivation.

-While I agree that Arnold is the true creator of the park, I just don't see the point of Ford being a host who constantly reminds everyone that the hosts aren't real, I also doubt we're going to get a Roger Korby, I downloaded my mind into the robot but I'm still human thing.

-Logan has simply not gotten enough screen time to be the MiB and that would be a totally uninteresting reveal.  He was a jerk 30 years ago, and he's a jerk now.  So I think that is for certain not the case.

[polishgenius]

12 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

And again, everyone says William killed the young soldier. How??? There's no gunshot and we do not see, even for a moment, William leaning over or doing something to the kid when Delores glances back at him.  Being a GoT fan, when they first came across him I thought to myself, give him the gift of mercy, and I was waiting for William to do something.  But he didn't. It's all the power of suggestion.

 

I don't think William necessarily killed him in the end but just the editing and music (it gets very ominous) of that scene suggests to me it's supposed to be an important turn in William turning for the bad, or at least the writers want us to think that.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Just now, Cas Stark said:

-I like the idea of MiB story being to throw off Ford, but I sort of doubt it, I think it will turn out to be a weak motivation.

-While I agree that Arnold is the true creator of the park, I just don't see the point of Ford being a host who constantly reminds everyone that the hosts aren't real, I also doubt we're going to get a Roger Korby, I downloaded my mind into the robot but I'm still human thing.

-Logan has simply not gotten enough screen time to be the MiB and that would be a totally uninteresting reveal.  He was a jerk 30 years ago, and he's a jerk now.  So I think that is for certain not the case.

I think it is pretty obvious that Logan dies in the event that almost destroyed the Park 35 years ago, and that William emerges and takes his place as the successor to the family business. This is what launches William to become the "Titan of Industry" that the MIB has become over the years. With Logan still around, that is far less achievable. So Logan has to die.

[Cas Stark]

Maybe Delores will kill Logan?

I was thinking re: the guy at the river that William probably pinched his nose closed to smother him...can't think of another way he he could have killed him that quickly.  

[Theda Baratheon]

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

I think it'd be more like he realizes she was never capable of loving him and is just a robot. That would be a punch in the gut, but I don't think it drives him to "turn evil." Rather I think since he had so much fun in the park/it made him feel alive and the hosts are all just robots anyway why not keep going back and having more fun killing them? Then he realizes after his wife's death that his violent acts against these fake people have affected his personality in the real world. Then he see's something in Maeve that makes him think the hosts do have the potential to be truly alive and sets out on his suicide mission.

I still think him getting there is a bit of a leap. I really do. I love the Maeve bit though. 

 

21 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

I will repeat what I said before, sociopaths are born, not made in adulthood, which is why I wonder if Logan, not William, is the MiB. I realize that one of the major tie-ins is the fact they both picked up the can of condensed milk, except in his timeline the MiB says to Delores, not this trip, he has other things to do. He's been doing things to Delores for 30 years, and that to me also suggests Logan, doing an annual revenge, and hence the comment that after 30 years she still doesn't remember him. Maybe it's William who dies in the park in a Logan led massacre, and then Delores kills herself, which would fit.

And again, everyone says William killed the young soldier. How??? There's no gunshot and we do not see, even for a moment, William leaning over or doing something to the kid when Delores glances back at him.  Being a GoT fan, when they first came across him I thought to myself, give him the gift of mercy, and I was waiting for William to do something.  But he didn't. It's all the power of suggestion.

I'd actually much prefer Logan was the MiB! But I think a lot of people assume he's the death or one of the deaths that make up the ''critical failure'' though maybe that would turn out to be William's death...who knows. I would prefer Logan being the MiB though. They seem WAY more similar. 

35 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

It's weak.  In the park so far, he is not evil, he has not enjoyed randomly killing the robots like his BIL and others in the park, he sees himself as a good guy and wants to be a good guy, despite that he did just kill the dying man by the river....but if that is supposed to be him turning evil: weak. Something truly, seriously traumatic well beyond "I thought that robot chick was more real than she was" to turn William into a person whose decades of behavior are so dark, so sadistic, so obsessive [and obsessive w/out trying to 'wake up" Delores again] that it drives his own family to hate and fear him.  

Yep.

50 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I think the way he treats Delores early on in the season is a big signal its not William. William loves her, MIB seems completely indifferent to her. At the very least he would show some sort of emotion after seeing her. I mean I'm not discounting the theory, lots of people are picking up on it, but you'd think MIB would behave a bit differently to the way he did around her after their history together. 


edit: ok I take it back, rewatched the first episode. 'After all we've been through, you still don;t remember me'. 

Seem like the fact she doesn't remember him and that his love with her wasn't really might have made him retreat into himself. Whereas the first time he entered the park as William, it was so he could lose himself in the idea, now he wants his revenge on whoever made the park. 

Well its likely he will find out about the Labyrinth through his original journey with Delores.

It's still weak. And that could be a line from ANYONE who had been visiting the park for so long. Dolores has been there that long so it stands to reason someone visiting the park for 30 years would have seen a great deal of her over the years and participated in her storylines more than a few times. 

[Theda Baratheon]

I'd not like Ford to be a host. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

6 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

I still think him getting there is a bit of a leap. I really do. I love the Maeve bit though. 

 

I'd actually much prefer Logan was the MiB! But I think a lot of people assume he's the death or one of the deaths that make up the ''critical failure'' though maybe that would turn out to be William's death...who knows. I would prefer Logan being the MiB though. They seem WAY more similar. 

Yep.

It's still weak. And that could be a line from ANYONE who had been visiting the park for so long. Dolores has been there that long so it stands to reason someone visiting the park for 30 years would have seen a great deal of her over the years and participated in her storylines more than a few times. 

This is all based on the permise that the MIB is an evil sociopath. But if his deeper motive is not cheap thrills, but instead a mission to repeatedly induce trauma onto hosts until they achieve "awakening", then he is not evil at all, but serving a higher purpose.

So he is not a sociopath. And he just uses his sociopath cover story to throw Ford off the trail that leads to this true purpose in the Park.

[Theda Baratheon]

Just now, Free Northman Reborn said:

This is all based on the permise that the MIB is an evil sociopath. But if his deeper motive is not cheap thrills, but instead a mission to repeately induce trauma onto hosts until they achieve "awakening", then he is not evil at all, but serving a higher purpose.

So he is not a sociopath. And he just uses his sociopath cover story to throw Ford off the trail that leads to this true purpose in the Park.

He's still sadistic. I never said he was a sociopath once. I said he acts evil and I've, in the past, argued against him raping Dolores and being as terrible as we think, but it seems like he isn't a great guy and he knows it. whatever he tells himself NOW, to make himself feel better than whatever. And you're basing this on the belief that William = MiB. We don't know that. 

What we DO know is MiB was married and has a daughter and both were scared of him. He thought he was building a wall around his darker self, his true self. He's in the maze to unlock that true self. He ain't a great guy. But I don't think he's 100% evil either. He's a very interesting character and I do think he's on a complex mission that might include egging the hosts on to self awareness but I think, ultimately, he's in it for himself. 

But I've argued a very similar thing to you regarding him in a past thread, so who knows really. I'm hoping the finale is spectacular whatever happens. 

Penultimate episode next though!  Excited. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

2 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

He's still sadistic. I never said he was a sociopath once. I said he acts evil and I've, in the past, argued against him raping Dolores and being as terrible as we think, but it seems like he isn't a great guy and he knows it. whatever he tells himself NOW, to make himself feel better than whatever. And you're basing this on the belief that William = MiB. We don't know that. 

What we DO know is MiB was married and has a daughter and both were scared of him. He thought he was building a wall around his darker self, his true self. He's in the maze to unlock that true self. He ain't a great guy. But I don't think he's 100% evil either. He's a very interesting character and I do think he's on a complex mission that might include egging the hosts on to self awareness but I think, ultimately, he's in it for himself. 

But I've argued a very similar thing to you regarding him in a past thread, so who knows really. I'm hoping the finale is spectacular whatever happens. 

Penultimate episode next though!  Excited. 

All I would say is that the hosts are not human, so whatever anyone does to them is not evil. They are not even animals. They are machines. So it is like hurting a computer, or a drone. But, if through hurting these dead objects you can actually awaken them  to true consciousness (create in them the origin of life), then you are actually doing something wondrous.

 

[Astromech]

20 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

 

Did not expect Bernard to be the one who killed Elsie. I'm confused how that works out though. So, she called him while he was with Theresa. Then he leaves. But I thought the way the scenes were made it seem not much time passed. I might need to rewatch to make sense of that, the details are somewhat hazy. (Sad we don't get to see any more of Elsie though)

 

Since Bernard is a host, why can't there be multiple copies of him? Or any of the hosts for that matter? That would also explain Ford's hesitation when Bernard asked him if he had ordered him to kill before.

[Theda Baratheon]

10 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

All I would say is that the hosts are not human, so whatever anyone does to them is not evil. They are not even animals. They are machines. So it is like hurting a computer, or a drone. But, if through hurting these dead objects you can actually awaken them  to true consciousness (create in them the origin of life), then you are actually doing something wondrous.

 

That's all very well and good but this whole show has been about the fact that they are NOT just machines and that they do feel emotions. Even if their memories get wiped (we know this isn't happening for a lot of the hosts) they feel loss and grief and terror and upset. We know this. The show has told us this. For eight episodes. So all that you would say, whilst technically correct, they are not human, does not then logically follow that whatever anyone does to them is not evil. In can, in fact, be evil to murder a small child who is terrified, FEELING terror, even though that child is technically not human. Because the intent is all that matter behind an act like that and why you'd do it. And the MiB's intent behind that particular action was to do an evil thing. The worst thing he could think of, to murder a small child.

[Free Northman Reborn]

4 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

That's all very well and good but this whole show has been about the fact that they are NOT just machines and that they do feel emotions. Even if their memories get wiped (we know this isn't happening for a lot of the hosts) they feel loss and grief and terror and upset. We know this. The show has told us this. For eight episodes. So all that you would say, whilst technically correct, they are not human, does not then logically follow that whatever anyone does to them is not evil. In can, in fact, be evil to murder a small child who is terrified, FEELING terror, even though that child is technically not human. Because the intent is all that matter behind an act like that and why you'd do it. And the MiB's intent behind that particular action was to do an evil thing. The worst thing he could think of, to murder a small child.

No, that is what he says was his intent. To Teddy. Who is clearly Ford's slave and agent.

[Theda Baratheon]

3 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

No, that is what he says was his intent. To Teddy. Who is clearly Ford's slave and agent.

That doesn't change the fact that you can perform an evil act on, what is basically, a 3D printed human being with an even more sophisticated brain that our own. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

6 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

That doesn't change the fact that you can perform an evil act on, what is basically, a 3D printed human being with an even more sophisticated brain that our own. 

Well, you just said the intent behind the act is what matters. And if the intent is to free the hosts from their loops, from their endless slavery to Ford's will, then the intent is good.

[Cas Stark]

28 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

All I would say is that the hosts are not human, so whatever anyone does to them is not evil. They are not even animals. They are machines. So it is like hurting a computer, or a drone. But, if through hurting these dead objects you can actually awaken them  to true consciousness (create in them the origin of life), then you are actually doing something wondrous.

 

If that were really true, then his actions in the park, according to him, would not have been so corrosive that it caused his wife to commit suicide and his daughter to say they both were afraid of him.  So, the show seems to be telling us that getting your kicks over and over and over again by black hatting a bunch of almost sentient beings that look and act and suffer just like humans IS corrisive and negative and 'bad' for you, whether it meets the threshold of evil, which I'd say no, or not.

The MiB may or may not care about awakening the robots...so far he seems to care more about finding the last mystery that Arnold left and if it means awakening the robots so its a fair fight..he's good w/it, but his mission is selfish, for himself, for his own journey not to 'help; the hosts, if the hosts are helped it's a secondary effect.  IMO

[Theda Baratheon]

2 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Well, you just said the intent behind the act is what matters. And if the intent is to free the hosts from their loops, from their endless slavery to Ford's will, then the intent is good.

Yes, the intent matters, but I also said the reactions of those you're harming matter as well. And if I didn't, then i'll say it now. She was terrified, the hosts feel pain and emotions, and if you're making something feel terror in such a way as that little girl then you are committing an evil act. I've already said I don't think the MiB is an EVIL man, not 100% but he has committed evil acts. Killing the little girl was one of them. I'm pretty sure, we as viewers, I TOTALLY meant to feel that way...I mean, what show are you watching? Do you only care about the story of the MiB and William? Because the rest of our main characters are all hosts, bar Ford....our VILLAIN. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

25 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Yes, the intent matters, but I also said the reactions of those you're harming matter as well. And if I didn't, then i'll say it now. She was terrified, the hosts feel pain and emotions, and if you're making something feel terror in such a way as that little girl then you are committing an evil act. I've already said I don't think the MiB is an EVIL man, not 100% but he has committed evil acts. Killing the little girl was one of them. I'm pretty sure, we as viewers, I TOTALLY meant to feel that way...I mean, what show are you watching? Do you only care about the story of the MiB and William? Because the rest of our main characters are all hosts, bar Ford....our VILLAIN. 

Not at all. I care about Dolores. I cared about Teddy until I realised how shallow his programming appears to be, in his rather repetitive loop, with a bit more depth apparently added now with the Wyatt storyline.

But again, if one truly cares about the hosts, then you would do anything to prevent them from experiencing these endless loops of suffering. And if the ONLY way to achieve that is to push them to the point where they "awaken", then the MIB's intentions are good.

I totally discount the idea that he kept coming back to the park for thrills. If he is William, that is not his character. I think he came back for a deeper purpose - linked to Dolores. And that he used the "shallow thrills" act as a cover story, to keep Ford from getting too suspicious.

EDIT

Although, after just watching his first encounter with Dolores in episode 1 again, he did seem awfully convincing as enjoying the thrill of it back then.

So I guess I'm confused again.

 

[Theda Baratheon]

22 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Not at all. I care about Dolores. I cared about Teddy until I realised how shallow his programming appears to be, in his rather repetitive loop, with a bit more depth apparently added now with the Wyatt storyline.

But again, if one truly cares about the hosts, then you would do anything to prevent them from experiencing these endless loops of suffering. And if the ONLY way to achieve that is to push them to the point where they "awaken", then the MIB's intentions are good.

I totally discount the idea that he kept coming back to the park for thrills. If he is William, that is not his character. I think he came back for a deeper purpose - linked to Dolores. And that he used the "shallow thrills" act as a cover story, to keep Ford from getting too suspicious.

It might turn out that's true, but I'd hate MiB to be William. Just wouldn't like William to have turned into such a man. 

[Winterfell is Burning]

2 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

I will repeat what I said before, sociopaths are born, not made in adulthood, which is why I wonder if Logan, not William, is the MiB. I realize that one of the major tie-ins is the fact they both picked up the can of condensed milk, except in his timeline the MiB says to Delores, not this trip, he has other things to do. He's been doing things to Delores for 30 years, and that to me also suggests Logan, doing an annual revenge, and hence the comment that after 30 years she still doesn't remember him. Maybe it's William who dies in the park in a Logan led massacre, and then Delores kills herself, which would fit.

While I don't buy that theory either, the MiB being Logan makes much more sense than him being William.

That said, Logan has shown to not only want something different from the park, new stories, while MiB has tried to play all of them repeatedly. And MiB says killing the kid was his first true act of cruelty, while Logan has shown a sadistic steak from the start.

 

2 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

edit: ok I take it back, rewatched the first episode. 'After all we've been through, you still don;t remember me'. 

Seem like the fact she doesn't remember him and that his love with her wasn't really might have made him retreat into himself.

That doesn't mean anything specifically- if he has been to the park many times, he certainly has seen Dolores many times, and played her storyline(s) many times.