HBO's Westworld(v4)- What door? [spoilers]

[polishgenius]

On William = MiB and the objections that he wouldn't turn that evil: I think the basic theory (mine, anyway) is that essentially after he gets knocked back by Dolores' regression to her loop (things may be a little more traumatic, if Logan is to die or whatever, but the basic idea), he essentially goes 'pffft fuck it' and starts treating the park like a video game. We know that the hosts can think and feel frightened etc, but at that point he feels they're all programmed responses (as they're told they are). He doesn't necessarily go bad overnight, 30 years is a long time, and his actions don't bleed over into real life straight away but, eventually, he starts being deadened to what he is doing in the park, it leaks over to how he is out of the park, and he starts frightening his family, and eventually, his wife to death.
It's at that point that he starts wondering if he really has lost the capacity to feel, does the most evil thing he can think of, and realises that, while he felt nothing (or convinces himself he has not)... the hosts can feel after all. So now he's on this quest to find the truth, whether it's altruistic- free the hosts- or pure selfish curiosity.

[dooog]

7 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

On William = MiB and the objections that he wouldn't turn that evil: I think the basic theory (mine, anyway) is that essentially after he gets knocked back by Dolores' regression to her loop (things may be a little more traumatic, if Logan is to die or whatever, but the basic idea), he essentially goes 'pffft fuck it' and starts treating the park like a video game. We know that the hosts can think and feel frightened etc, but at that point he feels they're all programmed responses (as they're told they are). He doesn't necessarily go bad overnight, 30 years is a long time, and his actions don't bleed over into real life straight away but, eventually, he starts being deadened to what he is doing in the park, it leaks over to how he is out of the park, and he starts frightening his family, and eventually, his wife to death.
It's at that point that he starts wondering if he really has lost the capacity to feel, does the most evil thing he can think of, and realises that, while he felt nothing (or convinces himself he has not)... the hosts can feel after all. So now he's on this quest to find the truth, whether it's altruistic- free the hosts- or pure selfish curiosity.

Yep^^ This seems to be where we're headed.

 

On an unrelated note, I find it odd that Bernard would sneak up on... Elsie? Even if he intends to kill her there's no reason to sneak up. Makes me wonder if she is indeed alive, or if they just shot it that way as a shock!ing way to end the episode.

[Winterfell is Burning]

21 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

On William = MiB and the objections that he wouldn't turn that evil: I think the basic theory (mine, anyway) is that essentially after he gets knocked back by Dolores' regression to her loop (things may be a little more traumatic, if Logan is to die or whatever, but the basic idea), he essentially goes 'pffft fuck it' and starts treating the park like a video game. We know that the hosts can think and feel frightened etc, but at that point he feels they're all programmed responses (as they're told they are). He doesn't necessarily go bad overnight, 30 years is a long time, and his actions don't bleed over into real life straight away but, eventually, he starts being deadened to what he is doing in the park, it leaks over to how he is out of the park, and he starts frightening his family, and eventually, his wife to death.
It's at that point that he starts wondering if he really has lost the capacity to feel, does the most evil thing he can think of, and realises that, while he felt nothing (or convinces himself he has not)... the hosts can feel after all. So now he's on this quest to find the truth, whether it's altruistic- free the hosts- or pure selfish curiosity.

I don't see how one sees a girl he fell in love with just be erased and then...decides to come back to the place that did the most traumatic thing that ever happened to him for fun and games.

[Ramsay B.]

Damn this thread is moving fast. I was never too on board with MiB=William, but I think it's pretty much undeniable now. I've been rewatching the first few episodes and all the hints are obviously there. I also rewinded a part with William and Logan on the train going to WW because I could've sworn I saw Elsie in the background, but I think it's just clue paranoia at this point. This show is a mind-fuck.

[polishgenius]

5 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

I don't see how one sees a girl he fell in love with just be erased and then...decides to come back to the place that did the most traumatic thing that ever happened to him for fun and games.

Trauma does funny things.

[Fragile Bird]

Speaking of the show fucking with your mind, if anyone is re-watching the last episode, when Dolorous comes 'home' and sees the townspeople dancing, with the trainer instructing them....was that Bernard standing on the wooden sidewalk moving his arms like a conductor?

[red snow]

Does the MiB have to have been "evil" for 30 years? Maybe it's only in that last year he's been particularly bad.

He might also simply be waiting for some spark of life in the hosts after being let down by Ford/Delores in the past (assuming he is William). Only when he noticed Maeve show a sign of life did he start looking into it once more.

If he genuinely fell in love with Delores and thinks this maze will restore her then I can understand why he's appearing so cruel. I'd kill countless NPCs in a game if they were standing in the way of saving someone I care for. Have we seen him harm anyone he thought showed signs of sentience yet? Besides Delores but it seemed he thought she was still lost at that point.

[Theda Baratheon]

I'm not going to like it until I see it happen on the show. Then i'll still either hate it, or really appreciate what the show's done and love it. Dunno yet. 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Maybe, I'm not convinced by it, but it does seem to be more than a throw away line. And he did seek her out. 

 

- referring to mib talking to Delores 

[Theda Baratheon]

jimmi simpson and ed harris just don't look anything alike either l m a o

[Martini Sigil]

17 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

jimmi simpson and ed harris just don't look anything alike either l m a o

There *is* that, yeah.....lol.... but its the future, so maybe he had some work done....and a new hat.....lol

As far as the mystery of the maze goes.... 

I think it's more than metaphorical, and that the corporate building is (if viewed from above) shaped like the maze, at the heart of which lies Arnold

[Ser Quork]

11 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

I'm not going to like it until I see it happen on the show. Then i'll still either hate it, or really appreciate what the show's done and love it. Dunno yet. 

This is pretty much how I feel, too.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

I think that the William / MIB theory is the main reason I'm interested in the show right now. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy it, probably the one show I look forward to at the moment, but I'm still not hooked at all. Too much of the show feels like its either going over old ground, doing things I've seen before, or trying to create intrigue and mystery in a way that will never be able to satisfy me.. ala Lost. 

 

[Theda Baratheon]

I'm proper booked and don't really understand all the lost reference. This show has mysteries but I think every piece of dialogue is careful; I think the showrunners know what they're doing. 

So far we have: 

William and Dolores searching for something, finding the old site of a town that Dolores used to live in and is likely the site of Arnold's death.

MiB and the made, he's searching for some kind of meaning.

Maeve self aware and wanting to escape.

Ford's New narrative. What's his endgame? What does he really feel about the hosts? Who is Wyatt?

Elsie: Alive or dead, and by whom?

Bernard - his journey to discovering who and what he is.

Delos company tired of Ford, interested in the hosts core code.

Some of that could be more straight forward than we think 

[Jaxom 1974]

17 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

I don't see how one sees a girl he fell in love with just be erased and then...decides to come back to the place that did the most traumatic thing that ever happened to him for fun and games.

I'd suspect that it's his version of doing similar things over and over again to the same results for so long that drives him over the edge.  He likely spends a great deal of time trying to get Dolores out of her loop and back to being more human...when that doesn't work he then has the incident with Maeve...

Maybe.

[Guest]

Has anyone pointed out that we've had at least three songs on the player piano with "black' in the title?  Paint it Black by the Rolling Stones, Black Hole Sun by Soundgarden, and Back to Black by Amy Winehouse.  Must be deliberate, right? 

[Theda Baratheon]

32 minutes ago, Triskan said:

Has anyone pointed out that we've had at least three songs on the player piano with "black' in the title?  Paint it Black by the Rolling Stones, Black Whole Sun by Soundgarden, and Back to Black by Amy Winehouse.  Must be deliberate, right? 

Oh. Good spot. 

I'm still reelin' over the Cure being used. 

[Astromech]

19 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

Speaking of the show fucking with your mind, if anyone is re-watching the last episode, when Dolorous comes 'home' and sees the townspeople dancing, with the trainer instructing them....was that Bernard standing on the wooden sidewalk moving his arms like a conductor?

I didn't notice that, but now that you mention it, the lady who was leading the dance lesson may have been Bernard's fake wife. She looked familiar when I watched it the other night. I'll have to go back and verify.

[Theda Baratheon]

20 minutes ago, Astromech said:

I didn't notice that, but now that you mention it, the lady who was leading the dance lesson may have been Bernard's fake wife. She looked familiar when I watched it the other night. I'll have to go back and verify.

Ooooh, didn't spot that if that's true...going to need to rewatch the last ep I've only watched it the once...

[Fragile Bird]

I watched the last episode a silly number of times because I was working on my laptop in front of the tv and either played it on the pvr or it was on HBO as a replay.  A couple of things:

1.  I don't think that is Bernard conducting the dancers, the guy has a beard but I think he's white.  I thought the black lady instructing the dancers looked familiar too, but I didn't compare her to Bernard's wife:

2.  What Maeve says to Sylvester (and I listened over and over) is "even at a 14 you were never a match for me". That's open to interpretation either way, did she mean herself as a 14 or did she mean Sylvester was a 14. I need to go back to see what others said about her level earlier.

3.  In any event, the repair equipment Felix used on Sylvester sealed his neck as if he was melting a plastic-like material.  And why did Felix only seal half the wound?

4.  Maeve tells Felix they need to go and put together that army. Where did they go between Sylvester being repaired and Maeve waking up in her bed?

5.  There have been numerous occasions where characters talk about not having time to do something. We do seem to be rushing forward towards an event which I assume will occur next week or the week after. I wonder if they will use the GoT model of the peak events occurring in the second last episode? Those time comments include the MiB telling William he hopes he hasn't wasted his time, Maeve saying that there are things she was designed to do that are dormant within her, but she doesn't have the time for that, Angela telling William 'it takes time' (remembering, I think) but they don't have the time to wait, and several others that have now slipped my mind.  In fact I do believe almost every character says something about not having time, like it's a virus going round. It does seem to be a theme, though.