HBO's Westworld(v4)- What door? [spoilers]

[HokieStone]

1 minute ago, Castel said:

Also: Ford is a total asshole but goddamn, is he a magnificent bastard. Hard to root against him.Definitely hope he lasts the season.

Well, the season is over next week...so I think that's a safe bet.

[Castel]

Just now, HokieStone said:

Well, the season is over next week...so I think that's a safe bet.

Yeah but someone can still get capped to solidify the growing independence of the hosts. I was suspecting it'd be him this episode, or maybe MiB in the next. 

 

It's not over till it's over. 

[HokieStone]

1 hour ago, Fez said:

Well, okay then. I was wrong, the two timelines stuff is correct.

With the timelines confirmed, are we sure William is the MiB? Seems like Logan is pretty decent guess too at this point. After all, he's the one that opened Dolores, and the MiB said he opened a host up once.

 

Pretty sure we saw William turn into the MiB with him massacring the confederales.

As for the timelines...there's more than two...and I'll admit I'm a bit confused.  There's the "current" timeline - MiB, old(est) Ford, etc.  Then there's the main "flashback" timeline - William, Logan, etc.  There's at least a 3rd timeline - Delores (in her dress) descending through the church to talk to Arnold (and seeing young Ford).  But I feel like there's a 4th timeline as well.  Delores gets cut open by Logan...she's running through the woods...and then she's grabbing at her stomach, sort of surprised that it's not cut open.  Which would put that some time after her time with William - or is this current Delores...because then we see MiB open the church doors at the end.  I have to admit...I've lost track of where Delores is in the "current" timeline. 

And don't forget...from last week, when Delores and William found all those dead bodies by the river...she had a flashback like she'd seen that before...and her memory of the engineers teaching the hosts to dance in the town.

Confusing...

[HokieStone]

6 minutes ago, Castel said:

Yeah but someone can still get capped to solidify the growing independence of the hosts. I was suspecting it'd be him this episode, or maybe MiB in the next. 

 

It's not over till it's over. 

 

Oh...you want him to survive into next season.  We'll see...I think there have been reports that Ed Harris signed on for another season...but no report on Anthony Hopkins.  I wouldn't be surprised if Maeve does him in next episode.  The previews seemed to indicate that she found Bernard's body...so maybe she brings him back...this time invulnerable to Ford.  Of course, the whole Maeve thing has been a bit of a farce, for reasons people listed upthread...but oh well.

[Ordos]

I missed the episode this morning (timezone differences) because of a power failure but I read reviews online an hour later. Hopefully I'll be able to watch the re-run tonight. Nothing this episode about Lee Sizemore taking that old host with all that data out of the park?

[Corvinus85]

I loved the episode.

While the two timelines thing (with a 3rd added there for Teddy's and Dolores's memories) is confirmed, I think the jury is still out that MiB=William. Right now it could very well be Logan. Unless William doesn't think that butchering all those soldiers was a truly evil thing.

I loved the Arnold reveal. Now I am very intrigued what Dolores and MiB will do in the finale.

I find it interesting how slow the Elsie reveal is going on. There might be more there than just oh she's dead and buried. I would have like to see what happened to Stubbs, but most likely we will find out next episode.

As other have said, Ford is a magnificent bastard. A great villain to root for. 

I, for one, like the Maeve story, even if I agree that it's probably the weakest part of the whole plot line, it has its moments. It could very well be that it's Ford's new narrative.

[DMC]

1 hour ago, Corvinus said:

While the two timelines thing (with a 3rd added there for Teddy's and Dolores's memories) is confirmed, I think the jury is still out that MiB=William. Right now it could very well be Logan. Unless William doesn't think that butchering all those soldiers was a truly evil thing.

Indeed I do not think he, at least in Ed Harris form, would consider that "truly evil."  However, while I still think it makes no narrative sense whatsoever, Logan "opening up" Delores is objectively supporting evidence towards him as MIB.  By the same token, though, so is William opening up all the soldier-hosts and leaving their hacked up remains in some Other-style arrangement.

1 hour ago, Corvinus said:

I find it interesting how slow the Elsie reveal is going on. There might be more there than just oh she's dead and buried. I would have like to see what happened to Stubbs, but most likely we will find out next episode.

Right?  There's gotta be something going on with Elsie - and hopefully an explanation for why the painted dudes would attack Stubbs.  Seems like the C story for the finale.  Right when older-brother Hemsworth headed out to check on her signal I was like "man, you need to call Thor!"

1 hour ago, HokieStone said:

Oh...you want him to survive into next season.  We'll see...I think there have been reports that Ed Harris signed on for another season...but no report on Anthony Hopkins.

I will be disappointed if Hopkins does not appear in any other season (albeit only in flashbacks and being offed in the finale may be amenable).  They have set Ford up as intricately involved in pretty much everything that's interesting with the show (other than Maeve's storyline thus far, which as others have mentioned he SHOULD be involved in).  I have a hard time believing the finale will sew up all the threads he's involved in - nor should it.  Killing Ford right now wouldn't be akin to a killing Ned move.  It'd be more like killing Ben Linus at the end of Season 2 before he could help answer all the lingering questions viewers have.

IRT timelines:  So, we know Delores has a memory of talking to Arnold in/under that church which was BEFORE the main 30 years ago timeline; and it seems clear she has been following in her footsteps in the "current" timeline wherein she sees the MIB at the end.  Thus, the only question is, where is she in the "Logan just opened up your stomach" timeline?

I did really like the Maeve scene with Hector, but how in the hell does she have voice commands on Bernard?  One would assume Ford made sure only he could do that, if only for the obvious reasons of you don't want Theresa (who would presumably have "high clearance voice command," if that makes sense) to accidentally deactivate him in the middle of S&M or something.  Still trusting in them having a decent explanation for all the Maeve mishegoss.  Looking forward to the finale - hope it doesn't suck!

[Ordos]

I do wonder what is at the boundaries of the park. Are there electric fences and guards patrolling? Maybe there are motion detectors that trigger explosives in the hosts to prevent them from leaving.

[Mark Antony]

I think William=MIB was pretty much confirmed last night (along with pretty much every fucking theory.) I mean if William killing all those confederates wasn't enough they have Dolores say "William!?" then cut right to the MIB walking into the the church. Not a fan of all the editing tricks with the multiple timelines and still not sure why Dolores is allowed off her loop in the present when she is alone though. 

Kinda liked Logan this episode. Mcpoyle going crazy would be a major buzzkill for someone pretty much just trying to play GTA at the park. 

Agree that Bernarnold reveal was well done. Wonder who lured Stubbs out to get snatched. Only reveal I'm waiting on is for it to be revealed that Ford is aware of all the Maeve shenanigans.  

[Winterfell is Burning]

Yeah, the picture confirms the William is MIB theory. That said, the whole multiple timelines things is awfully confusing. If Dolores is meeting MIB in the present, why she's dressed like she was in the past?  Frankly, this is why I didn't want it to happen, it's just a mess. Also, William just killing all those robots all the sudden seems too much. I feel the whole arc is a little forced.

Again, Maeve's superpowers are a bit too much. Also, another arc that is a little forced, though I'm enjoying the season overall.

I don't know what's the point of Ashley getting kidnapped, but it will probably go somewhere interesting.

 

 

 

 

[Darzin]

So I really think Deloros might be Wyatt, we see the Wyatt narrative keep changing and the hosts keep mentioning they are waiting for Wyatt to come back. Also Deloros memories of killing everyone in the town are basically the same as Teddy's.

[Castel]

40 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Yeah, the picture confirms the William is MIB theory. That said, the whole multiple timelines things is awfully confusing. If Dolores is meeting MIB in the present, why she's dressed like she was in the past?  Frankly, this is why I didn't want it to happen, it's just a mess. Also, William just killing all those robots all the sudden seems too much. I feel the whole arc is a little forced.

Again, Maeve's superpowers are a bit too much. Also, another arc that is a little forced, though I'm enjoying the season overall.

I don't know what's the point of Ashley getting kidnapped, but it will probably go somewhere interesting.

My take: In terms of 99% of the things we've seen there are only two timelines: William's and MiB's. 

In between that the hosts are seemingly getting flashbacks and,since they're not human, their flashbacks are as vivid as the real thing, so you can't tell the difference. 

 

Just now, Darzin said:

So I really think Deloros might be Wyatt, we see the Wyatt narrative keep changing and the hosts keep mentioning they are waiting for Wyatt to come back. Also Deloros memories of killing everyone in the town are basically the same as Teddy's.

I definitely think that the narrative is at least based on Dolores' actions, I believe Ford even says as much, that it's based on truth.

[Cas Stark]

Ford is a bad, bad man, LOL.  It's even more evil that he made Arnold's robot self a man full of grief over his imaginary dead son than that he made Dolores loop one of death, loss and rape.   But I will be disappointed if he gets killed in the next episode, then I guess Ed Harris and the board will be running the park.  That seems premature somehow, that his end game whatever it is would be revealed and then he gets killed presumably by either Maeve or Bernard, who presumably isn't really going to be dead either.

I agree that Ford has to know about Maeve or it's a huge plot hole and will make no sense.

Still not a huge fan of how suddenly William has gone dark.  But he's the man in black alright.

Loved all the Bernard stuff.  

[Charlie Hustle]

All i gotta say is WOW. I kinda figured that Bernard is arnold, but i didnt think that they couldn't revive a human as a Host. If thats so, then how many hosts have human personalities? Somebody has to know about Maeve modification. Working in technology fields, there are too many checks and balances to prevent things like this from happening, and admin privileges aren't just given out like skittles. Then theres logs of who has them and who has given them.

I believe it is Ford whos pulling Maeve's string. Which would be his new narrative about a machine uprising, to keep Delos at bay. I hope Bernard isnt dead also.

[red snow]

1 hour ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Yeah, the picture confirms the William is MIB theory. That said, the whole multiple timelines things is awfully confusing. If Dolores is meeting MIB in the present, why she's dressed like she was in the past?  Frankly, this is why I didn't want it to happen, it's just a mess. Also, William just killing all those robots all the sudden seems too much. I feel the whole arc is a little forced.

Again, Maeve's superpowers are a bit too much. Also, another arc that is a little forced, though I'm enjoying the season overall.

I don't know what's the point of Ashley getting kidnapped, but it will probably go somewhere interesting.

 

 

 

 

I think they've established quite clearly in this episode that Delores' clothes can never be trusted as they shift from scene to scene. They are like Bernard's door.

It's starting to look like all of our main theories were correct. I'm still waiting to see if my idea that this whole narrative has been a way of getting at Arnold's information though? A while back I suspected Ford may be rerunning the past in an attempt to get the info/breakthrough that Arnold made.

This would explain the Maeve thing as it may actually all be a part of getting Bernard to remember what Arnold does. Although that would requite us seeing (if we haven't already) some scenes where Maeve interacted with Arnold.

What I'm really enjoying is the fact that the reveals are turning out to be satisfactory eg Bernard is the host, then Bernard is Arnold. I still think they cheated in misleading us with MiB = William with the scene where she apparently fled from the barn to William though. I hope they at least address that in the next episode. It's one thing having the odd scene where the camera is lying but it could break the show if we get to a point where we can't trust anything.

[red snow]

10 hours ago, Fez said:

Well, okay then. I was wrong, the two timelines stuff is correct. But it feels less like a twist and more like a trick due to things such as none of the hosts showed mechanical parts the way Dolores did up until that scene, including the one that exploded, and the various editing tricks to splice together scenes across timelines. Not a fan. 

With the timelines confirmed, are we sure William is the MiB? Seems like Logan is pretty decent guess too at this point. After all, he's the one that opened Dolores, and the MiB said he opened a host up once.

 

 

He opened up a bunch of them when he tore an entire platoon apart.

I'm wondering if Logan is part of the Hector host? Several of us have noticed how similar they appear and the editing this week had an awful lot of transitions between Logan and Hector. I still think Logan dies at the hands of William and that's part of the dynamic between Ford and MiB. Although I'd need to see the episodes where Hector and MiB interacted as I'd think MiB would pick up on any similarities.

10 hours ago, Trebla said:

 

If it's true, it's kind of sad that the only two decent real people when the show began were Bernard and William. One is a robot and the other got completely corrupted

I still don't know if MiB has been totally corrupted. If he is William, which seems likely, was his massacre this episode a sign of him being evil? I'm not so sure - if he's killing what he assumes (which is where it may be evil if he's wrong) that the other hosts aren't sentient, then killing 30 of them to save a truly sentient delores isn't that evil. Again, it would be like killing "people" in a game in order to save a real person. With that in mind if MiB's mission is to uncover the code that makes the hosts conscious I don't think his actions are so corrupt. If it's all in order to save Delores is he that corrupt? It all hinges on whether the other hosts are sentient or not and if he thinks he's killing toys or "people". I think his killing of Maeve is important in that he admitted she seemed real. I'd need to rewatch that scene to see if he admits to any remorse over her remorse or whether the "felt nothing" comment was just aimed at the child. If it was just aimed at the child it was probably because it wasn't sentient. The way he talked about Maeve's reaction was slightly different though.

He's a flipside to Ford in the sense both think the ends justify the means but it may be that MiB has a more noble goal.

[Fez]

I can see the "Ford knows about Maeve" thing going either way:

On the one hand, he clearly was prepared for (and seemingly wanted) that conversation with Bernard, which was triggered by Maeve's interaction with Bernard. So it would seem she is already working towards his plans, regardless of speculation about the future.

On the other hand, Maeve was apparently triggered this go round by Dolores whispering "these violent delights...," Dolores was triggered this go round by Abernathy whispering "these violent delights...," and Abernathy was triggered by finding that photo in the ground that was almost certainly left or lost by the MiB. Ford is very powerful, but I don't see how he could've planted that photo in the ground to get all this started.

Although, it could be that Ford didn't plan on triggering Maeve, but once she was he took control of the situation and twisted it towards his own aims. 

 

As for Logan or William being the MiB. The other big argument in favor of Logan is that the MiB said he never saw the hosts as humans until a year ago, when he cut up Maeve. William clearly saw Dolores as human. It could be the MiB is lying. But considering the only definite backstory we have for him is his big speech/info dump, him lying there would be bad storytelling.

[Castel]

12 minutes ago, red snow said:

I still don't know if MiB has been totally corrupted. If he is William, which seems likely, was his massacre this episode a sign of him being evil? I'm not so sure - if he's killing what he assumes (which is where it may be evil if he's wrong) that the other hosts aren't sentient, then killing 30 of them to save a truly sentient delores isn't that evil. Again, it would be like killing "people" in a game in order to save a real person. With that in mind if MiB's mission is to uncover the code that makes the hosts conscious I don't think his actions are so corrupt. If it's all in order to save Delores is he that corrupt? It all hinges on whether the other hosts are sentient or not and if he thinks he's killing toys or "people". I think his killing of Maeve is important in that he admitted she seemed real. I'd need to rewatch that scene to see if he admits to any remorse over her remorse or whether the "felt nothing" comment was just aimed at the child. If it was just aimed at the child it was probably because it wasn't sentient. The way he talked about Maeve's reaction was slightly different though.

He's a flipside to Ford in the sense both think the ends justify the means but it may be that MiB has a more noble goal.

I'm always fascinated by the discussions on whether the MiB is evil or not. Reminds me of the discussions on whether Samuel L. Jackson's character in The Hateful Eight really did what he claimed to have done in the "dingus" scene. To me it's just.."yeah, he probably did that or would have. Why not?"

How does William think hosts get consciousness? He can just kill 30 of them and be sure none of them are conscious or heading that way? I mean, Dolores is still basically following the game, despite her weirdness so..he can just say for sure all of those others are not sentient and kill them? Hell, Maeve was sentient and her core programming was intact. Someone could have iced her and no one would know. 

The case for MiB is even worse really. If he knew Dolores was special from 30 years ago and he kept running around raping her and others...what are you supposed to think of that?

The same problem that applies to the army shows up for the whole Maeve-child thing. Does he have consciousness sensing superpowers to tell that the child is not sapient or did he not feel anything cause he's an asshole as he stated his family already believed? It seems a bit circular no? Any time he hurts a host it's cause they weren't conscious, or he was helping them? Was he raping Dolores for noble reasons?

What also makes anyone think that he wants to free hosts for any deeper reason than his own game of self-discovery?

[Ded As Ned]

 

17 minutes ago, red snow said:

He opened up a bunch of them when he tore an entire platoon apart.

I'm wondering if Logan is part of the Hector host? Several of us have noticed how similar they appear and the editing this week had an awful lot of transitions between Logan and Hector. I still think Logan dies at the hands of William and that's part of the dynamic between Ford and MiB. Although I'd need to see the episodes where Hector and MiB interacted as I'd think MiB would pick up on any similarities.

(snip)

I agree with this.  Delores saw herself dead in that vision/memory at the riverbank... I think that was current Delores' memory.  In the past William finds her "dead" and we've already seen he's unhinged a bit... kills Logan.  Maybe Ford finds out and they strike some sort of... agreement. 

Definitely don't see how the MiB can be anyone other than William.  Too many clues in this episode.

Also, reckon Ford is printing himself up a new Bernard?  That thing's been running the background for a few episodes now.

[Castel]

1 minute ago, Ded As Ned said:

 

I agree with this.  Delores saw herself dead in that vision/memory at the riverbank... I think that was current Delores' memory.  In the past William finds her "dead" and we've already seen he's unhinged a bit... kills Logan.  Maybe Ford finds out and they strike some sort of... agreement. 

Definitely don't see how the MiB can be anyone other than William.  Too many clues in this episode.

Also, reckon Ford is printing himself up a new Bernard?  That thing's been running the background for a few episodes now.

Ford might be done with Bernard. As he himself said it's time to let go and try to stop trying to change the past.