HBO's Westworld(v4)- What door? [spoilers]

[Trebla]

46 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I'm really surprised how many people think Logan has a better chance of turning out to be the Man in Black than William. There are way more clues that he's William. Also the Man in Black clearly has blondish hair, not dark like Logan's. 

Plus both William and The MiB have blue eyes, Logan has brown eyes.

Upon re-watch, I noticed the 5th episode, "Contrapasso" contains some subtle clues. Just before The MiB kills and drains Lawrence to revive Teddy, he says to Lawrence that another "old friend" says there's a path for everyone. The very next scene after MiB revives Teddy is Delores and William and she uses that very script as they are walking around in Pariah. He also tells Lawrence that part of the reason he had kept him around is that no one else in the world dared to take the tone with him that Lawrence did, except perhaps in a past life. In other words, pre-Westworld William. 

The later conversation between Ford and MiB also takes on new meaning when you consider it's not just a park founder vs top guest but park founder vs powerful board member. 

[DMC]

2 hours ago, Leofric said:

I think the original city was buried 35 years ago after Delores (aka Wyatt) and Teddy shot up the whole town before the Park opened.   So it was buried when Delores and William visited about 5 years later just about the time of the "incident" and it was still buried 30 years later when Ford visited with his younger Robert host.    Then Ford had it uncovered as part of his new narrative, so it was restored by the time Delores and MiB return there and meet in the Church.

Yep, that's my thinking too.  Actually think it's pretty clear considering all the massive construction scenes we saw earlier in the season and the fact the remains of the church is where we saw Ford reveal his plans for the new narrative at the end of episode 2 (I think).

Just watched the trailer for the finale again because I'm bored and don't wanna do work, and the most striking thing which has yet to be discussed here is Maeve (with a notable posse behind her) encountering REAL Clementine in the room Bernard killed himself.  So, whether Ford intended it or not, seems quite possible Bernard will be joining the Bicameral Wild Bunch next week.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Called Benarnold way back when first starting watching show. I was never big on the William=MiB theory, but I have to admit it was all but confirmed this episode. Still very intrigued into the Mae's plot and where it heading. Personally, I'd love for her to be doing this all on her own through coersion. I mean Bernard knew about it when he intervie2 her and gave her clearance to enter the park. Maeve and Abernathy Will be a big part of next season's goings on. And, like the rest of you, very interested to see what comes about between Delores and the MiB in the church. And, who the hell Ford is secretly "creating" in his SEC set lab. 

Also, in Bernards "memories", aren't we shown that Theresa was a Host also?

[AndrewJ]

So this is why we need to be able to post images in these forums. I want to post the picture of Han Solo saying "It's true... All of it" right now. Pretty much sums up how I feel.

Okay... so I'm almost certain MiB has to be Will. Logan's colouring is all wrong, as others have said.

But there's one fly in the ointment for me. MiB did day at some stage (to Teddy?) something like "I cut one of you up once, just to see what was inside. You used to be made up of all these moving parts". And Logan just did precisely that with Delores. So now I don't know what to think.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

9 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Called Benarnold way back when first starting watching show. I was never big on the William=MiB theory, but I have to admit it was all but confirmed this episode. Still very intrigued into the Mae's plot and where it heading. Personally, I'd love for her to be doing this all on her own through coersion. I mean Bernard knew about it when he intervie2 her and gave her clearance to enter the park. Maeve and Abernathy Will be a big part of next season's goings on. And, like the rest of you, very interested to see what comes about between Delores and the MiB in the church. And, who the hell Ford is secretly "creating" in his SEC set lab. 

Also, in Bernards "memories", aren't we shown that Theresa was a Host also?

That is was it I thought. It looked like she was frozen for a split second. 

[unJon]

5 minutes ago, Arch-MaesterPhilip said:

That is was it I thought. It looked like she was frozen for a split second. 

I think that was just Bernard able to freeze his memories and move around in them. Not that it was an actual event where he froze Theresa. 

[DMC]

Just now, unJon said:

I think that was just Bernard able to freeze his memories and move around in them. Not that it was an actual event where he froze Theresa. 

Yeah I think that was them setting up Bernard stopping his "cornerstone" memory and basically literally saying goodbye to the grief of his dead son - seems like he altered that memory after "freezing" it as well.  The way I understood it, the episode was framed around him overcoming the cornerstone memory in order to access the first memory of being created/woken up by Ford, so pausing Theresa was more like the first step in that process.

...after writing that I feel like it sounded ridiculous, but it makes sense to me! 

[Ramsay B.]

19 minutes ago, AndrewJ said:

But there's one fly in the ointment for me. MiB did day at some stage (to Teddy?) something like "I cut one of you up once, just to see what was inside. You used to be made up of all these moving parts". And Logan just did precisely that with Delores. So now I don't know what to think.

William then proceeded to kill all the soldiers while clearly cutting up many of them, since there was legs and other body parts laying everywhere. Seeing Dolores cut open piqued his curiosity of sorts. Or are you focusing on the fact that he said one?

[dooog]

So how come nobody at WW ever wondered about how Bernard hasn't aged a day in all the years he's worked there

[AndrewJ]

It's not so much "one". It's more about the specific purpose being to see how they worked. I see the comment as being fairly significant and relating to more than just a bunch of random destruction. Cutting open one Delores with the specific purpose of seeing/showing what's inside just seems to fit more to me, rather than a bunch of indiscriminate slaughter.

But that aside, I'm still firmly on the MiB=William train.

[Ramsay B.]

1 minute ago, dooog said:

So how come nobody at WW ever wondered about how Bernard hasn't aged a day in all the years he's worked there

Good genes? Ford didn't look too much younger when he made Bernard. It couldn't have been that long ago. 

[dooog]

1 minute ago, Ramsay B. said:

Good genes? Ford didn't look too much younger when he made Bernard. It couldn't have been that long ago. 

They went to the trouble of making Ford look younger in that scene so you would assume it's a good 15 years at least, plus the fact that characters have alluded to Bernard working there for a long time.  The fact that he's Ford's close colleague who doesn't age would surely raise red flags

[Ramsay B.]

2 minutes ago, dooog said:

They went to the trouble of making Ford look younger in that scene so you would assume it's a good 15 years at least, plus the fact that characters have alluded to Bernard working there for a long time.  The fact that he's Ford's close colleague who doesn't age would surely raise red flags

Yeah, just watched that scene and Ford does look a good 20 years younger. 

[DMC]

15 minutes ago, dooog said:

So how come nobody at WW ever wondered about how Bernard hasn't aged a day in all the years he's worked there

Apparently, the turnover at Westworld is similar to a chain restaurant.  That, or Ford occasionally partakes in George Bluth's famous Black Fridays.  Thirdly, this could easily be explained by Ford slightly aging him every couple years - he clearly intimated last night Bernard has had many tune-ups to his software, why not his hardware?

[red snow]

41 minutes ago, AndrewJ said:

But there's one fly in the ointment for me. MiB did day at some stage (to Teddy?) something like "I cut one of you up once, just to see what was inside. You used to be made up of all these moving parts". And Logan just did precisely that with Delores. So now I don't know what to think.

By similar logic, Logen clearly already knew what was going to be inside Delores so he clearly wasn't doing so out of curiousity but rather to prove a point.

15 minutes ago, dooog said:

So how come nobody at WW ever wondered about how Bernard hasn't aged a day in all the years he's worked there

Good point.

11 minutes ago, Ramsay B. said:

Good genes? Ford didn't look too much younger when he made Bernard. It couldn't have been that long ago. 

But I think that covers it. There were probably a few iterations of Bernard before Ford had one that was passable maybe but it's probably been 10-15 years. Some people age better than others.

Although this does fit well with Logen's comment about no-one even knowing what Arnold looks like. Step 1 on rebuilding your old partner is to make sure no one notices when you bring him back.

32 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Yeah I think that was them setting up Bernard stopping his "cornerstone" memory and basically literally saying goodbye to the grief of his dead son - seems like he altered that memory after "freezing" it as well.  The way I understood it, the episode was framed around him overcoming the cornerstone memory in order to access the first memory of being created/woken up by Ford, so pausing Theresa was more like the first step in that process.

...after writing that I feel like it sounded ridiculous, but it makes sense to me! 

Makes sense to me. He was also able to order the doctors around in his memory of charlie too.

[Astromech]

What if the entire purpose of Ford's new narrative is to lure MiB to his death, thus eliminating his board vote to remove Ford?  Dolores again eliminates a rival.

[dbunting]

So many thoughts and none in a straight line.

Pretty sure Benard did kill himself after all Ford has this superuser ability and he used it. Odd that Clem was clothed in that scene.

Never liked William was MiB but seems confirmed now although Logan makes more sense. If William never married his sister or dies there then Logan can blame Delores and want to punish her. Also Logan was the one wanting to play the park game kind of like MiB being obsessed over it.

As to Bernard not aging and no one noticing it's easy. Turnover is said to be quite often and likely Ford and Benard are only ones who stay there.

[Jaxom 1974]

4 hours ago, RumHam said:

I'm really surprised how many people think Logan has a better chance of turning out to be the Man in Black than William. There are way more clues that he's William. Also the Man in Black clearly has blondish hair, not dark like Logan's. 

Not just that, but if the MiB was "reborn" in Westworld, I think he said that, then it doesn't fit that it would be Logan. 

[Baitac]

3 hours ago, dooog said:

They went to the trouble of making Ford look younger in that scene so you would assume it's a good 15 years at least, plus the fact that characters have alluded to Bernard working there for a long time.  The fact that he's Ford's close colleague who doesn't age would surely raise red flags

He ages as Ford rebuilds him in his lab, plus turnover? I think Maeve should kill the MiB. 

[Martini Sigil]

The third timeline (Arnold and Dolores) threw me....

I also thought that Elsie would have turned up alive.... wrong again.

I love that they're tying most of these questions up, and not being too elusive.... The show is so beautifully written, that it would be unnecessary. I'm sure that they won't explain *everything*.... but it doesn't appear that they intend to be so coy that they'll be overly elusive... Which I think is a good move, rewarding the massive viewership