HBO's Westworld(v4)- What door? [spoilers]

[HokieStone]

Is there a website anywhere that has compiled a comprehensive list of the timelines?  It is apparent that we have seen Dolores in at least 3 timelines - but boy, am I confused about some of the particulars.  I totally lost track of when "current day" Dolores changed out of her blue dress into pants and shirt, and started making her way towards the (un)buried town.  The only other "sure" scenes where Dolores was in the "current" timeline was early on when the MiB arrived at the farm and then dragged her off to rape her (although I'm not convinced he raped her).  The also switched out her father for a different model at that point, as we see the modern day techs leading her original father into cold storage.  Or was that in the modern timeline?  He had the picture of William's fiancee...which didn't look particularly faded, for being 30 years old.

When I think back, there were things like her digging up a buried gun, putting it in a drawer...and then opening the drawer to find it missing.

And what about her final conversation with Bernard/Arnold?  She says "I killed you" to him...so is she talking to the newly created Bernard at that point?

 

Found this timeline on Reddit, though it doesn't include episode 9 - https://www.reddit.com/r/westworld/comments/5el6uw/a_chronological_view_of_westworlds_timeline/

[DaveSumm]

I tried making this a series where I didn't ever look up anything on the net about it, and succeeded till around episode 7 or 8. I hadn't considered the William/MiB theory, although I'd like to think the photo would've tipped me off as I recognised it from the first episode. So I'm new to this timeline stuff, forgive me if this has been asked; in order for this to work, does it mean that the whole opening entrance to the town hasn't changed in 30 years? All the same people making the same appeals to come on their adventure, Dolores dropping the can, all of that? Seems unlikely. And what exactly is the editing issue that people are talking about, is there a scene that blends the two timelines? Is it possible they changed their minds?

Also with Bernarnold (great name), is there no pictures at all of Arnold? Hell of a risk isn't it, for Ford to hope that no one would ever recognise him?

[Fez]

6 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

I tried making this a series where I didn't ever look up anything on the net about it, and succeeded till around episode 7 or 8. I hadn't considered the William/MiB theory, although I'd like to think the photo would've tipped me off as I recognised it from the first episode. So I'm new to this timeline stuff, forgive me if this has been asked; in order for this to work, does it mean that the whole opening entrance to the town hasn't changed in 30 years? All the same people making the same appeals to come on their adventure, Dolores dropping the can, all of that? Seems unlikely. And what exactly is the editing issue that people are talking about, is there a scene that blends the two timelines? Is it possible they changed their minds?

Also with Bernarnold (great name), is there no pictures at all of Arnold? Hell of a risk isn't it, for Ford to hope that no one would ever recognise him?

Well, we know not all the hosts are on the same loop after 30 years (like Maeve), and its possible that most of them aren't. Dolores specifically is on the same loop though. The theory I saw is that she is on the same terrible loop (ending in murder-rape of herself and her family every day) as Ford's punishment for her killing Arnold. No evidence for that, but its a neat idea.

The editing issue, which I really don't like, is that there are lots of weird shots of Dolores throughout the season, where she was with people and then all of a sudden was alone. The last two episodes have been very blatant about it, but before that it was much more subtle and could easily be read as just a different camera angle rather than something suggesting she was actually alone. Also, there are jump cuts between timelines that are a done in a way that make it seem like things could be happening at the same time (e.g. Stubbs noticing Dolores was off-loop and sending a tech to go fetch her; we then see a scene of a tech meeting Dolores and leaving when he sees she's with William. But the second scene happened 30 years ago and the first scene happened in the present; and we never see what happened when the tech met Dolores in the present).

[Mark Antony]

10 minutes ago, Fez said:

Also, there are jump cuts between timelines that are a done in a way that make it seem like things could be happening at the same time (e.g. Stubbs noticing Dolores was off-loop and sending a tech to go fetch her; we then see a scene of a tech meeting Dolores and leaving when he sees she's with William. But the second scene happened 30 years ago and the first scene happened in the present; and we never see what happened when the tech met Dolores in the present).

Still not over this one haha like why would they allow her off her loop when she's not with a guest. 

[red snow]

7 hours ago, HokieStone said:

Is there a website anywhere that has compiled a comprehensive list of the timelines?  It is apparent that we have seen Dolores in at least 3 timelines - but boy, am I confused about some of the particulars.  I totally lost track of when "current day" Dolores changed out of her blue dress into pants and shirt, and started making her way towards the (un)buried town.  The only other "sure" scenes where Dolores was in the "current" timeline was early on when the MiB arrived at the farm and then dragged her off to rape her (although I'm not convinced he raped her).  The also switched out her father for a different model at that point, as we see the modern day techs leading her original father into cold storage.  Or was that in the modern timeline?  He had the picture of William's fiancee...which didn't look particularly faded, for being 30 years old.

When I think back, there were things like her digging up a buried gun, putting it in a drawer...and then opening the drawer to find it missing.

And what about her final conversation with Bernard/Arnold?  She says "I killed you" to him...so is she talking to the newly created Bernard at that point?

 

Found this timeline on Reddit, though it doesn't include episode 9 - https://www.reddit.com/r/westworld/comments/5el6uw/a_chronological_view_of_westworlds_timeline/

I'm waiting for the fan cut of the season in chronological order. That's where we'll be able to tell if it holds up or is a complete mess. Don't know if i could watch it but I'msure someone will

[DMC]

1 hour ago, DaveSumm said:

does it mean that the whole opening entrance to the town hasn't changed in 30 years? All the same people making the same appeals to come on their adventure, Dolores dropping the can, all of that? Seems unlikely.

Why does it seem unlikely?  Look at Disneyworld/land.  The entrances to all the main parks - Main Street USA, Hollywood Boulevard, Spaceship Earth - have virtually remain unchanged since their inception.  I mean, I'm sure most of the hosts (sans Dolores) have changed since we know Maeve has not been there too long and Clementine was promptly replaced, but I don't think it's odd that the classic introductory setup has endured.

[DaveSumm]

11 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Why does it seem unlikely?  Look at Disneyworld/land.  The entrances to all the main parks - Main Street USA, Hollywood Boulevard, Spaceship Earth - have virtually remain unchanged since their inception.  I mean, I'm sure most of the hosts (sans Dolores) have changed since we know Maeve has not been there too long and Clementine was promptly replaced, but I don't think it's odd that the classic introductory setup has endured.

Well, not the buildings and such, but the adventures. But I'm sort of wrong anyway, the Reddit post that HokieStone linked says one of the hunts was replaced with a recruitment for soldiers. Dolores dropping the can is still the same, but that could fall into the category of evidence that Ford is trying to recreate things intentionally. Maybe Dolores has been doing something completely different for the best part of 30 years, but Ford unearthed her old loops and no one noticed cos no one was there that long ago.

It's interesting how TV has had to adapt to the internet, you essentially have to throw in enough confusion to make things difficult for people cobbling together theories otherwise everyone will just crack it wide open from the get go. I'm a bit disappointed I caved and started reading this thread, it's a lot more fun to be shocked by a twist than to think 'oh, those guys were right, it was this theory'.

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

Well, not the buildings and such, but the adventures.

Well I was kind of referring to the limited amount of adventures as well.  Really, beyond the whorehouse, all we have there (correct me if I'm wrong) is the opportunity to shoot down the famed gunslinger (Teddy), to be the gentleman caller to the homestead damsel (Dolores), and the appeals to join the posse hunting down the infamous outlaw (Hector).  Those all seem to be the most archetypal "narratives" one would expect from a western themed park.

[Charlie Hustle]

15 hours ago, AndrewJ said:

So this is why we need to be able to post images in these forums. I want to post the picture of Han Solo saying "It's true... All of it" right now. Pretty much sums up how I feel.

Okay... so I'm almost certain MiB has to be Will. Logan's colouring is all wrong, as others have said.

But there's one fly in the ointment for me. MiB did day at some stage (to Teddy?) something like "I cut one of you up once, just to see what was inside. You used to be made up of all these moving parts". And Logan just did precisely that with Delores. So now I don't know what to think.

Yeah but William cut up a bunch of them after Logan gutted Delores.

[Charlie Hustle]

13 hours ago, Astromech said:

What if the entire purpose of Ford's new narrative is to lure MiB to his death, thus eliminating his board vote to remove Ford?  Dolores again eliminates a rival.

AHh!!! That could happen

[Ded As Ned]

13 hours ago, Astromech said:

What if the entire purpose of Ford's new narrative is to lure MiB to his death, thus eliminating his board vote to remove Ford?  Dolores again eliminates a rival.

Didn't Charlotte say they wanted it to be unanimous, not that it had to be?  Or am I wrong on that?

[Charlie Hustle]

2 hours ago, Fez said:

Well, we know not all the hosts are on the same loop after 30 years (like Maeve), and its possible that most of them aren't. Dolores specifically is on the same loop though. The theory I saw is that she is on the same terrible loop (ending in murder-rape of herself and her family every day) as Ford's punishment for her killing Arnold. No evidence for that, but its a neat idea.

The editing issue, which I really don't like, is that there are lots of weird shots of Dolores throughout the season, where she was with people and then all of a sudden was alone. The last two episodes have been very blatant about it, but before that it was much more subtle and could easily be read as just a different camera angle rather than something suggesting she was actually alone. Also, there are jump cuts between timelines that are a done in a way that make it seem like things could be happening at the same time (e.g. Stubbs noticing Dolores was off-loop and sending a tech to go fetch her; we then see a scene of a tech meeting Dolores and leaving when he sees she's with William. But the second scene happened 30 years ago and the first scene happened in the present; and we never see what happened when the tech met Dolores in the present).

AH!!! I never thought of that. So her loop always ended with misery as a form of punishment.

Also the editing issue is what makes the show so great. We see the show through the eyes of the hosts. If they would have given us the details like "30 years ago" and such, then the show would really be boring. But since we are limited to watch the show through host lenses, it really makes us think. I love it.

[red snow]

1 hour ago, Ded As Ned said:

Didn't Charlotte say they wanted it to be unanimous, not that it had to be?  Or am I wrong on that?

But wasn't MiB the only one wanting to keep Ford around? Hence Ford killing him would be a bit of an own goal. Unless the testing of a potential William host is working and he sticks a programmable MiB in an old body. That would be a nice way of making MiB into a host and more like the film version for season 2.

[Guess who's back]

I have no idea what could they have in store for us for the second season. Will the whole show be about Ford struggling to stay in power? And if Ford gets eliminated there really isn't that much of a substance or mystery left in the show anymore.

[Jaxom 1974]

3 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Well I was kind of referring to the limited amount of adventures as well.  Really, beyond the whorehouse, all we have there (correct me if I'm wrong) is the opportunity to shoot down the famed gunslinger (Teddy), to be the gentleman caller to the homestead damsel (Dolores), and the appeals to join the posse hunting down the infamous outlaw (Hector).  Those all seem to be the most archetypal "narratives" one would expect from a western themed park.

It's a question of how often people come back too...I mean, obviously the park is for the super rich, but the MiB and Logan appear to be exceptions, not rules on people returning for another go.  There might not need be more than a few narratives at a time, and it does seem that there is the intention of a longer reaching narrative, from which smaller ones spring out of.

Also, perhaps there aren't THAT many guests in the park at a time.  There does seem to be a hotel aspect to the park also. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

Damn Polishgenius for stealing my thunder!

I was scrolling dutifully through the last 5 pages of this thread just to get to the end so I could say that the new host Ford is so patiently building in his lair is a replica of Ford himself. And that the reason for it all is that he wants to transfer his full consciousness into the host, in order to live forever.

Hence, all the testing is to uncover Arnold's secrets, all the suffering of the hosts are merely experiments to try and awaken them. They are like mice being tested in a lab until he finds the secret that allows him to become a fully conscious host and live forever.

[red snow]

25 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Damn Polishgenius for stealing my thunder!

I was scrolling dutifully through the last 5 pages of this thread just to get to the end so I could say that the new host Ford is so patiently building in his lair is a replica of Ford himself. And that the reason for it all is that he wants to transfer his full consciousness into the host, in order to live forever.

Hence, all the testing is to uncover Arnold's secrets, all the suffering of the hosts are merely experiments to try and awaken them. They are like mice being tested in a lab until he finds the secret that allows him to become a fully conscious host and live forever.

hmm. What if Arnold made Delores "free" but after she kills Arnold and then herself (assuming that memory was real) that info was lost? I'm still finding it hard to shake the feeling everything that's happening has been orchestrated by Ford and that the entireity of the season is actually his new production. It's probably the scientist in me that thinks the best way to achieve the same result is to replicate the experiment and that he has been somehow repeating the events from the past (giving a good narrative reason for the plot we've had). Although if Bernarnold killed himself that precludes him being killed by Delores. Although we all know that if we don't see someone die - they probably aren't dead.

If this is Ford's goal it may explain the rivalry with MiB as I think he's after the same thing but possibly for a commercial rather than simply private use.

[Astromech]

6 hours ago, Ded As Ned said:

Didn't Charlotte say they wanted it to be unanimous, not that it had to be?  Or am I wrong on that?

She said it had to be and that his vote was the most important since he was the one responsible for Ford still being there. Basically his only supporter. Apparently MiB doesn't care about Ford's narratives any longer, making Ford expendable. So the maze is Arnold's story.

MiB being a board member for so long also implies he, or his company, was an early investor in Westworld. This is possible further evidence supporting William or even Logan being MiB since Logan and William discussed investing in the park, I believe, in the second episode.

[Castel]

19 minutes ago, Astromech said:

She said it had to be and that his vote was the most important since he was the one responsible for Ford still being there. Basically his only supporter. Apparently MiB doesn't care about Ford's narratives any longer, making Ford expendable. So the maze is Arnold's story.

MiB being a board member for so long also implies he, or his company, was an early investor in Westworld. This is possible further evidence supporting William or even Logan being MiB since Logan and William discussed investing in the park, I believe, in the second episode.

She said "I like for these things to be unanimous" not "it has to be unanimous" 

MiB is a powerful man and is Ford's sponsor, it's probably best to not have him on the other side of this.And yes, he is likely an early investor. Logan says they're bleeding money when he shows up, MiB states that he "saved" Westworld and he's a board member..almost certainly that's what happened.

 

 

[Astromech]

My mistake, the board would like it to be unanimous, with MiB's, as Ford's chief supporter, being the most important of the votes to remove Ford.