HBO's Westworld(v4)- What door? [spoilers]

[Charlie Hustle]

26 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

But what timeline we're seeing *is* the mystery....

exactly

[HexMachina]

1 hour ago, Commodore said:

It's a fault of the show that explainers are necessary for the casual viewer to understand what they are seeing

making it obvious what timeline the viewer is seeing (without revealing anything else) would allow them to have a frame of reference and still not give away any of the mystery

see the current season of The Missing for how this is done well

They do make hints, they just dont make it blindingly obvious at first. No meed to sppin feed the audience.

[Commodore]

I'm fine with withholding information, but that's different than confusing the viewer. Viewer needs a basic frame of reference. A simple color filter for the different timelines would work (without giving away any mystery).

Even Memento made clear when we were seeing different timelines.

[Castel]

6 minutes ago, Commodore said:

I'm fine with withholding information, but that's different than confusing the viewer. Viewer needs a basic frame of reference. A simple color filter for the different timelines would work (without giving away any mystery).

Even Memento made clear when we were seeing different timelines.

That would work if the point was to know there were different timelines before this episode. It may have become dogma on the internet but I think a lot of people didn't immediately glom unto the two timeline theory on their own and weren't expected to.

In terms of Dolores you're not supposed to know because she doesn't seem to know. You get the general gist. Near the end you're shown her in MiB's timeline and, for the Arnold stuff, it's less important that you get exactly when she is as what Arnold tells her.

[Commodore]

the way Dolores was teleporting all over the park made it seem like a poorly edited show, when it fact it was multiple timelines

call it dumbing down, but it would have been easier to follow along if we knew which timeline we were in (and when we had moved from one to another)

[aceluby]

My favorite type of story telling is that of the unreliable narrator and this show does it superbly.  It has given the show SO much more depth than what I was expecting after the first 1-2 episodes.  The plot is pretty standard AI/robot fare (which is what I was expecting), but the unreliable camera and overall narration flowing seamlessly between the two timelines in the most subtle of ways is captivating.

Can't wait until the finale at which point I plan on immediately watching the entire season again.  

Bravo WW. 

[DaveSumm]

1 hour ago, Commodore said:

Even Memento made clear when we were seeing different timelines.

It made it clear, but then that wasn't the twist. The twist was

Spoiler

that what we were seeing was actually going to lead up to the beginning/end of the main story 

...so the black and white parts didn't spoil anything. The vast majority of people haven't cottoned on to the two timelines, the average viewer is not remembering dialogue from weeks ago about moving parts or recognising half a photo from the pilot. Anything to give that away and William = MiB would quickly follow, with far less impact. 

When I was still on the 'no internet wrt Westworld' wagon I kept seeing articles about the existence of theories and I was like 'what theories? Does it need theories? It's a park where people come and there's robots that are probably gonna wake up, where's the mystery?' I didn't even notice this was anything other than a linear story.

[red snow]

I honestly don't think the two timeline thing is a super-surprise. I cottonned onto it at the start of episode 2 and while I'd like to think I was a TV-trope genuis, the amount of people i know who've reached the same conclusion and aren't as geeky as me (besides the fact they'll watch a HBO show after GOT) has me thinking the show was playing fair at that point. Later episodes also have me thinking they were also wanting it to be something where viewers wouldn't say "WTF". It's still the scene in ep 3 (or 4?) where it appears that Delores walks from killing the barn and apparently straight into the arms of William that feels like a cheat. Because it seems impossible. As long as the final episode clears that part up I'll sort of forgive them. Otherwise I feel they are guilty of laying down clues with the insertion of a red herring that causes anyone who was onto them to dismiss the idea completely.

 

All that aside, I do worry how they progress next season as surely it's hard to play the timeline card again?

[polishgenius]

19 minutes ago, red snow said:

Later episodes also have me thinking they were also wanting it to be something where viewers wouldn't say "WTF". It's still the scene in ep 3 (or 4?) where it appears that Delores walks from killing the barn and apparently straight into the arms of William that feels like a cheat. Because it seems impossible. As long as the final episode clears that part up I'll sort of forgive them. Otherwise I feel they are guilty of laying down clues with the insertion of a red herring that causes anyone who was onto them to dismiss the idea completely.

 

That was actually the bit that made me pretty certain the theory was true, because iirc the leaving Dolores was injured but the one arriving with William wasn't, but it still felt cheap. And now we've seen the modern Dolores again it doesn't seem like she's hurt after all so either they've forgotten that bit or I've missed something anyway.

[Knute]

20 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

 

That was actually the bit that made me pretty certain the theory was true, because iirc the leaving Dolores was injured but the one arriving with William wasn't, but it still felt cheap. And now we've seen the modern Dolores again it doesn't seem like she's hurt after all so either they've forgotten that bit or I've missed something anyway.

When was modern Dolores hurt? I was under the impression that she wasn't physically hurt she was just exhausted and traumatized from the MiB flashback. Steven Ogg's character never harmed her afaik.

[RumHam]

6 hours ago, Knute said:

When was modern Dolores hurt? I was under the impression that she wasn't physically hurt she was just exhausted and traumatized from the MiB flashback. Steven Ogg's character never harmed her afaik.

She wasn't, I don't think. But right before she runs into William and Logan,during the encounter with the bandit gang it seems like she flashes back to a previous iteration in which she was shot by one of the bandits. She then uses that knowledge to avoid being shot by the same bandit and gets away. But it's been suggested that that flash between the two iterations of her loop is when we switched to 30 years ago Dolores. 

[Mark Antony]

14 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

But what timeline we're seeing *is* the mystery....

Don't really agree with this. I'm much more interested in knowing what exactly "Arnold's game" is. Unpopular opinion I guess but I don't think the timeline stuff has been handled all that well. 

[DaveSumm]

49 minutes ago, Mark Antony said:

Don't really agree with this. I'm much more interested in knowing what exactly "Arnold's game" is. Unpopular opinion I guess but I don't think the timeline stuff has been handled all that well. 

It was a response to the idea that you could signpost the timeline stuff without spoiling the mystery. Whether or not it's good, or how many people have figured it out is a seperate issue, it obviously is intended as a twist.

I'm gonna have to rewatch to decide how much they cheated or not, gonna wait till after the finale though.

[Cas Stark]

6 hours ago, Mark Antony said:

Don't really agree with this. I'm much more interested in knowing what exactly "Arnold's game" is. Unpopular opinion I guess but I don't think the timeline stuff has been handled all that well. 

Agree, timeline isn't the real mystery here, real mysteries are what Arnold did with the code and the maze, how he died, e.g. why did Dolores kill him, what had Hopkins to do with it all, and what is his objective now.  I don't really care about MiB, the show has already told me the maze is not for him so everything he does is superfluous to me.  Timeline is a twist.  They've handled it okay, some cheating and what I would say is cheap misdirection, but still okay.  Also, still do not like William/MiB, but that is a done deal I think.

[DaveSumm]

21 hours ago, red snow said:

All that aside, I do worry how they progress next season as surely it's hard to play the timeline card again?

There's so much scope for things to do with the basic concept, the way they've set it up with characters on a constant loop. You could have a completely different set of guests arriving 20 years ago, and have them interact in different ways with the exact same story lines. Dolores could have got into all manner of shit trying to make this journey she's on every time, or you could decide to cast the same actors in completely different roles to change things up. Or have plots long in the future when Ford is dead and he's laid down an Arnold like plan beyond the grave. Picking a time in the chronology to advance your main arc, while still having all your principle cast and stories to cherry pick from is pretty unique, I really hope they rise to the opportunity.

[Jaxom 1974]

Knowing we have to see what happens tomorrow night still, I would not be surprised at all if the second season incorporates a time jump forward in the storytelling.

[Commodore]

they've built up the maze as this profound existential vision quest

assuming it is revealed in the final episode, don't see how it can live up to the hype

I predict Dolores will kill Logan in the finale, she's threatened as much when he held her captive

[Ser Quork]

14 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Agree, timeline isn't the real mystery here, real mysteries are what Arnold did with the code and the maze, how he died, e.g. why did Dolores kill him, what had Hopkins to do with it all, and what is his objective now.  I don't really care about MiB, the show has already told me the maze is not for him so everything he does is superfluous to me.  Timeline is a twist.  They've handled it okay, some cheating and what I would say is cheap misdirection, but still okay.  Also, still do not like William/MiB, but that is a done deal I think.

Pretty much agree with this and I'm still thinking we'll see that Maeve and the others are actually running Ford's new narrative, rather than gaining true sentience.  Unfortunately, I'll have to try to avoid all social media until Tuesday as I don't really want to be spoiled for the finale.  That's going to be difficult as WW popping up everywhere at the moment.

[Jaxom 1974]

Huh. So rewatching the first episode...as we see Teddy coming in on the train, there is the guest talking about the white hat and the black hat and how he went "straight evil" that time...I never noticed Teddy was wearing a black hat...

[Trebla]

I will say that this show really makes you work for it. The timelines, what's narrative and what isn't, what is Ford's doing and what is Arnold's? So much going on that you forget things like what the Hell is going on with the Ghost Nation and why did they kidnap Stubbs?

Predictions? Well, I think half of the Host's awakening is Ford's new narrative and the other half is Arnold's Bicameral code. I also think that Ford's narrative is actually a defense of the park vs the Board, to prevent his ouster. I think the Board is actually aware of this but what they think is Ford's narrative is actually Arnold's.