Shuvuuia

D&E time politics and family relations

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From Daeron II's reign to Summerhall. A thread to discuss miscellaneous politic and family topics and speculations. Who was Egg's Hand? When did relationship between Bloodraven and Maekar improved? Was Jena Dondarrion part Celtigar? - things like that.

 

Above were just examples, but i have a couple of questions:

1. Does anyone think that Raymun Fossoway ends on Egg's small counsil? 

2. What would Bloodraven do about Aerion, if Aerion lived till Maekar's death? And would Aerion do anything about Bloodraven?

3. (small question) Was Bloodraven both the Hand and the master of Whispers during Aerys's and Maekar's reigns?

 

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49 minutes ago, Shuvuuia said:

Above were just examples, but i have a couple of questions:

1. Does anyone think that Raymun Fossoway ends on Egg's small counsil?

Could be. In general I'd expect to see a lot of commoners on Egg's Small Council, considering his reformist agenda, with Dunk serving as his Hand. That Edgar Sloane guy who served as Jaehaerys II's last Hand seems to have been a leftover from Aegon V's administration, and considering there is no House Sloane we know about in Westeros it is very likely that this was a man with obscure and simple roots.

49 minutes ago, Shuvuuia said:

2. What would Bloodraven do about Aerion, if Aerion lived till Maekar's death? And would Aerion do anything about Bloodraven?

That question implies that Aerion and Bloodraven were at odds with each other. We have no proof for that. In fact, they both agreed that Bittersteel should be executed.

49 minutes ago, Shuvuuia said:

3. (small question) Was Bloodraven both the Hand and the master of Whispers during Aerys's and Maekar's reigns?

Quite possibly. At least during the reign of Aerys I. Whether he was already Master of Whisperers under Daeron II is unclear (but not unlikely, considering that he was at court and in position to take charge after Daeron II and the Hand died in the spring, presumably before the new king was crowned).

How much power Bloodraven had during the reign of Maekar is completely unclear. Being Hand doesn't mean you are calling the shots, especially considering that the four sons of the king were already grown up at that time and lived, at least for a time, at court, too.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

That question implies that Aerion and Bloodraven were at odds with each other. We have no proof for that.

We have very strong indications suggesting at odds, though. In TSS Ser Eustace takes it for granted, and Egg doesn't contradict it. In fact, he also shows animosity towards Bloodraven, using arguments that sound as if he had heard them at home. Then in TMK, Bloodraven suggests keeping Egg as a hostage in a way that implies strong rivalry with Maekar.

Their personalities do not match up very well, too. Maekar is stubborn, straightforward and serious, while Bloodraven is more subtler, and has a teasing/mocking persona that someone like Maekar probably has a hard time to digest. I'd say that the only think that united them was the hatred towards the Blackfyres, and that's probably the reason why Maekar kept Bloodraven in his council. He was the best at the job. But I'd be very surprised if theirs was not a strained relationship.

Edited by The hairy bear

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2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

We have very strong indications suggesting at odds, though. In TSS Ser Eustace takes it for granted, and Egg doesn't contradict it. In fact, he also shows animosity towards Bloodraven, using arguments that sound as if he had heard them at home. Then in TMK, Bloodraven suggests keeping Egg as a hostage in a way that implies strong rivalry with Maekar.

Their personalities do not match up very well, too. Maekar is stubborn, straightforward and serious, while Bloodraven is more subtler, and has a teasing/mocking persona that someone like Maekar probably has a hard time to digest. I'd say that the only think that united them was the hatred towards the Blackfyres, and that's probably the reason why Maekar kept Bloodraven in his council. He was the best at the job. But I'd be very surprised if theirs was not a strained relationship.

We were talking Aerion and Bloodraven, not Maekar and Bloodraven. But I don't think Maekar and Bloodraven had real issues. Maekar had issues with his brother, King Aerys I, who named Bloodraven his Hand in his place. At least that's how Maekar sees it. Presumably Maekar and Aerys I worked their differences out in the 210s. One assumes that Maekar would have come to court for the funeral of his brother Rhaegel, if not earlier, not to mention that Aerys I himself made him Prince of Dragonstone in the wake of Aelor's death two years later. They would have to get along by then.

And then comes the Third Blackfyre Rebellion in 219 AC which seems to unite all the branches of House Targaryen anyway. Who knows? Perhaps Bloodraven saved Maekar's ass when he fought second duel with Bittersteel? Or Maekar saved Bloodraven at one point during that war.

The hints are that not only Bloodraven but also Maekar, Aerion, and Egg were crucial in defeating the Blackfyres in 219 AC, and that would have reflected on their relationship. Maekar was under no obligation to keep Bloodraven as his Hand - the fact that he did so means they must have gotten along in some fashion. You usually don't work with a guy you don't like or even mistrust.

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Could be. In general I'd expect to see a lot of commoners on Egg's Small Council, considering his reformist agenda, with Dunk serving as his Hand. That Edgar Sloane guy who served as Jaehaerys II's last Hand seems to have been a leftover from Aegon V's administration, and considering there is no House Sloane we know about in Westeros it is very likely that this was a man with obscure and simple roots.

Why do you think Dunk would be Hand? From a character perspective i don't think it suits Dunk (and could've easily been mentioned in the books), although,  i think Dunk is pretty smart.

I don't think that Egg will be able to pull something like a lot of commoners on the counsil, he would meet an opposition, and it would more interesting as a story if he has to deal with uppity nobles.

Also, i think it would be interesting, if Egg, while  "a half-peasant" from the opposition's perspective, still retains (or re-learns while at court) some classist attitudes that Dunk and people from common births can see.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That question implies that Aerion and Bloodraven were at odds with each other. We have no proof for that. In fact, they both agreed that Bittersteel should be executed.

 

I can't really see Bloodraven be ok with someone as unpredictable and unstable as Aerion "i'll call my son Maegor out of spite" Brightflame. Bloodraven seems like he puts the Targaryens first, and likes to control everything or work under a steady king, like Maekar, and Aerion is a wild card, potentially dangerous to the dynasty. And king Aerion probably wouldn't stand anyone with greater influence and power, and won't listen to advice. I don't see them trusting each other at all, it would be a paranoia game..

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12 minutes ago, Shuvuuia said:

Why do you think Dunk would be Hand? From a character perspective i don't think it suits Dunk (and could've easily been mentioned in the books), although,  i think Dunk is pretty smart.

Because if Egg becomes it is the logical end point of Dunk's career and story to be his Hand. The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard is also an important position, of course, but more that of some glorified bodyguard and supreme ruler over six other goons. If Dunk is going to make an impression on the politics and history of Westeros he has to rise to an office of paramount importance.

Not to mention that the friendship of Dunk and Egg alone should dictate that Dunk become Egg's closest adviser and confidant.

There is a hint that this is what's going to happen in the role play sourcebook, the one where Rhaenyra's three elder sons were also mentioned first (then still as Lord Lyonel Strong's sons). The people writing that had some access to George's notes.

This could, by the way, also explain why Jaehaerys II had to name a new Hand (Lord Ormund Baratheon) after Summerhall. And it is very odd that we don't know who was Egg's Hand but also not who served on his Small Council. We know a little bit more about his reign than we know about Maekar's reign but nothing concrete. We don't even know which lords opposed his reforms.

12 minutes ago, Shuvuuia said:

I don't think that Egg will be able to pull something like a lot of commoners on the counsil, he would meet an opposition, and it would more interesting as a story if he has to deal with uppity nobles.

I said I expect a lot of commoners on Egg's Small Council, not only commoners. I could see Lyonel Baratheon on the council at one point (before the Jenny affair, of course). Lord Gerold Lannister would be a possibility but seems unlikely from what we know about him.

Raymun Fossoway certainly is also a possibility, but so is Glendon Ball (who would qualify as a commoner or a person with commoner roots in my book).

But the main reason for this idea is that Egg could only lay out and implement his reformist agenda if he had men on his council he could work with. Charging a Master of Laws who owns a lot of land and exploits a lot of peasants with drawing up some new laws to change that wouldn't work.

12 minutes ago, Shuvuuia said:

Also, i think it would be interesting, if Egg, while  "a half-peasant" from the opposition's perspective, still retains (or re-learns while at court) some classist attitudes that Dunk and people from common births can see.

I think Egg will lose most of that during the years with Dunk. He'll remember how to behave at court, of course, but he won't shut his mouth when people mistreat the commoners. We know he is going to do that even before he takes the throne - in fact, that's the reason why the people don't like him all that much.

12 minutes ago, Shuvuuia said:

I can't really see Bloodraven be ok with someone as unpredictable and unstable as Aerion "i'll call my son Maegor out of spite" Brightflame. Bloodraven seems like he puts the Targaryens first, and likes to control everything or work under a steady king, like Maekar, and Aerion is a wild card, potentially dangerous to the dynasty. And king Aerion probably wouldn't stand anyone with greater influence and power, and won't listen to advice. I don't see them trusting each other at all, it would be a paranoia game..

Aerion isn't that mad nutcase we think he is. Ran and Linda have indicated that he is going to be more complex, and we already know he is going to become a very capable warrior, despite his cruelness. Most likely another version of Prince Daemon, perhaps somewhat more unstable. Bloodraven certainly could work with such a man.

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17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Because if Egg becomes it is the logical end point of Dunk's career and story to be his Hand. The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard is also an important position, of course, but more that of some glorified bodyguard and supreme ruler over six other goons. If Dunk is going to make an impression on the politics and history of Westeros he has to rise to an office of paramount importance.

Not to mention that the friendship of Dunk and Egg alone should dictate that Dunk become Egg's closest adviser and confidant.

 

I don't know, I personally don't quite see Dunk's arc going that way, but I can't quite put in the words yet. I think it is a very idiolized version of Dunk and Egg's relationship, i would rather prefer if it gets more complicated as Egg grows up, and Dunk loses his influence, while other people step up.

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Raymun Fossoway certainly is also a possibility, but so is Glendon Ball (who would qualify as a commoner or a person with commoner roots in my book).

I subscribe to Glendon Ball in the Kingsguard theory (but i wonder if it is Egg's kingsguard? Glendon is a prodigy and Bloodraven should've noticed him. What if Glendon is on Aerys/Maekar's guard and Dunk takes Lord Commander position after Glendon dies?)

 

I've singled out Raymun Fossoway, because he is very quick to befriend Dunk despite Dunk's lowly status and Dunk's mistrust, so it seems like he already lacks the classist attitude (at least to some extent).

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But the main reason for this idea is that Egg could only lay out and implement his reformist agenda if he had men on his council he could work with. Charging a Master of Laws who owns a lot of land and exploits a lot of peasants with drawing up some new laws to change that wouldn't work.

I definitely see common born Master of Laws , but i think the nobleborn will still over-number the lowborn people. I wonder about the High Septon, though. A very popular, pro-smallfolk High Septon could've helped Egg's cause.

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I think Egg will lose most of that during the years with Dunk. He'll remember how to behave at court, of course, but he won't shut his mouth when people mistreat the commoners. We know he is going to do that even before he takes the throne - in fact, that's the reason why the people don't like him all that much.

Yeah, i'm not saying he would mistreat the commoners, but that he would still have some ignorant attitudes.

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Aerion isn't that mad nutcase we think he is. Ran and Linda have indicated that he is going to be more complex, and we already know he is going to become a very capable warrior, despite his cruelness. Most likely another version of Prince Daemon, perhaps somewhat more unstable. Bloodraven certainly could work with such a man.

tbh, i don't like this complex Aerion thing. O, i definitely see him as a good warrior or, for example, loving his wife, even working with Egg during a Rebellion, but i think making him into some Jaime will diminish what he did to Tanselle and Egg from the meta perspective.

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1 hour ago, Shuvuuia said:

I don't know, I personally don't quite see Dunk's arc going that way, but I can't quite put in the words yet. I think it is a very idiolized version of Dunk and Egg's relationship, i would rather prefer if it gets more complicated as Egg grows up, and Dunk loses his influence, while other people step up.

Oh, Dunk and Egg surely could no longer be that close during a period of their lives (say, for instance, the time Egg spends at his father's court while Aerion is hanging out there, too - right now I don't see Dunk spending much time at court during that time). But I guess that will change when Egg becomes king.

I also don't see Dunk influencing Egg all that much. They influence each other in the stories, and I think it is more Egg living with commoners and peasants for an extended period of time that changes his view of things.

I sincerely doubt we'll get a lot 'Dunk the lunk, thick as a castle wall' stuff in Dunk's forties or fifties. He is likely to get some proper training at arms at one point, and perhaps even a proper education. Maekar offered to do that for him at Summerhall and it might happen at some point in the 210s.

I expect Dunk to rise quite high long before he even joins the Kingsguard. He has no inclination to do so right now, and every inclination to eventually marry and have children of his own. His connections to the Targaryens definitely could be the fast track to some lands, and possibly even a lordly title. He would later give all that up when he joins the Kingsguard, of course.

1 hour ago, Shuvuuia said:

I subscribe to Glendon Ball in the Kingsguard theory (but i wonder if it is Egg's kingsguard? Glendon is a prodigy and Bloodraven should've noticed him. What if Glendon is on Aerys/Maekar's guard and Dunk takes Lord Commander position after Glendon dies?)

It is just one idea for Glendon to become Dunk and Egg's friend. The other is that he is going to gravitate to the Blackfyres, after all. Keep in mind he is not particularly attractive, comes from very humble origins, and is pretty likely to ever win the respect of the men he sees as his peers (other knights, basically). The whole Fireball back story thing is very important for him. If he grows more disillusioned over the years Haegon and Bittersteel might succeed where Daemon II failed.

I'd find that a more interesting turn of events than Dunk and Egg remaining best friends with him.

1 hour ago, Shuvuuia said:

I've singled out Raymun Fossoway, because he is very quick to befriend Dunk despite Dunk's lowly status and Dunk's mistrust, so it seems like he already lacks the classist attitude (at least to some extent).

That is true, and I'm pretty sure both he and the Laughing Storm will come back at one point.

1 hour ago, Shuvuuia said:

I definitely see common born Master of Laws , but i think the nobleborn will still over-number the lowborn people. I wonder about the High Septon, though. A very popular, pro-smallfolk High Septon could've helped Egg's cause.

Aegon V should have no means to influence the election of a High Septon nor is it likely that the Most Devout ever chose a man of humble origins for centuries (Baelor the Blessed's active manipulations of the Most Devout excluded).

I expect Egg to choose capable men he can trust to do what he wants them to do for his council. There could be some nobles among them, but I doubt they will be the majority.

1 hour ago, Shuvuuia said:

Yeah, i'm not saying he would mistreat the commoners, but that he would still have some ignorant attitudes.

I don't think so. Egg is going to spend quite some time among the common people and this is going to change his attitudes quite severely. He has already seen what the lords do when they think the Crown is far away and he doesn't really like that kind of thing (the petty squabble in TSS, for instance).

1 hour ago, Shuvuuia said:

tbh, i don't like this complex Aerion thing. O, i definitely see him as a good warrior or, for example, loving his wife, even working with Egg during a Rebellion, but i think making him into some Jaime will diminish what he did to Tanselle and Egg from the meta perspective.

Nobody said anything about Jaime. I compared Aerion to Prince Daemon, not Jaime. And besides - as far as we know Aerion was a better man than Jaime considering that we have no reason to believe Aerion ever tried to murder a seven-year-old boy.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

It is just one idea for Glendon to become Dunk and Egg's friend. The other is that he is going to gravitate to the Blackfyres, after all. Keep in mind he is not particularly attractive, comes from very humble origins, and is pretty likely to ever win the respect of the men he sees as his peers (other knights, basically). The whole Fireball back story thing is very important for him. If he grows more disillusioned over the years Haegon and Bittersteel might succeed where Daemon II failed.

I'd find that a more interesting turn of events than Dunk and Egg remaining best friends with him.

 

Possibly. My wishfull thinking is that Glendon realizes that his supposed daddy was less than ideal and choses to drop the Ball part (i'm sorry) altogether.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Aegon V should have no means to influence the election of a High Septon nor is it likely that the Most Devout ever chose a man of humble origins for centuries (Baelor the Blessed's active manipulations of the Most Devout excluded).

 

probably, yes. i just thought that the Great Spring Sickness could've opened an opportunity for less noble septons to move upward.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Nobody said anything about Jaime. I compared Aerion to Prince Daemon, not Jaime. And besides - as far as we know Aerion was a better man than Jaime considering that we have no reason to believe Aerion ever tried to murder a seven-year-old boy.

I meant Jaime figuratively. Too many handsome blond white (white-passing in Aerion's case, but the fandom and the narrative, sadly treats him -as well as his siblings- as white) nobles who get complexities, while someones like the eldest Sand Snakes or dothraki men wouldn't get this kind of treatment. 

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On 21.11.2016 at 3:43 PM, Lord Varys said:

and considering there is no House Sloane we know about in Westeros it is very likely that this was a man with obscure and simple roots.

Nope, there actually exists house Sloane:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Heraldry/Houses/7/

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Nobody said anything about Jaime. I compared Aerion to Prince Daemon, not Jaime. And besides - as far as we know Aerion was a better man than Jaime considering that we have no reason to believe Aerion ever tried to murder a seven-year-old boy.

But he threatened to castrate his own brother who probably was in similar age.

Anyways i would like to learn more about Aerion, but I am sceptical about Ran's promise. Before they will publish next Dunk and Egg book or Fire and Blood, I will probably have already children on my own.

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1 hour ago, Shuvuuia said:

Possibly. My wishfull thinking is that Glendon realizes that his supposed daddy was less than ideal and choses to drop the Ball part (i'm sorry) altogether.

I don't think that this is all that likely. He made it very clear he lives to honor his alleged father and the man's memory. He would have to go very far to drop that. It would be comparable to Dunk admitting he is no knight and therefore dropping his career as a knight.

And Glendon freely admitted he would have joined Daemon II with all his heart had the man just asked him and had Peake not insisted on that he lose in the tourney.

1 hour ago, Shuvuuia said:

probably, yes. i just thought that the Great Spring Sickness could've opened an opportunity for less noble septons to move upward.

That is a possibility but one would think that the High Septon elected shortly after the Great Spring Sickness would be long dead during Aegon V's reign. There might even have been a couple of them in those thirty years.

4 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Nope, there actually exists house Sloane:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Heraldry/Houses/7/

That proves nothing considering that there is no information on this House Sloane. It could be as noble as, say, House Heddle, House Poole, or House Cole. Aegon V could even have founded House Sloane by ennobling the first Sloane. Not everyone with a name is a noble, by the way. Janos Slynt had a family name before he was made a lord.

4 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

But he threatened to castrate his own brother who probably was in similar age.

Sure, Aerion is a prick, but as far as we know he never actually castrated Egg. Jaime threw Bran out of window, though.

4 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Anyways i would like to learn more about Aerion, but I am sceptical about Ran's promise. Before they will publish next Dunk and Egg book or Fire and Blood, I will probably have already children on my own.

That is irrelevant. If George never gets around writing the stuff it won't be written. Then we'll never have a complete picture of Aerion (and a lot of other characters) but that doesn't mean we have enough information already to make an informed judgment. What we know about the guy is what a sixteen-year-old did at some tourney and how he eventually killed himself. We have no idea whatsoever what he did in the meantime. Was he popular with and well-liked by the Second Sons?

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

That proves nothing considering that there is no information on this House Sloane. It could be as noble as, say, House Heddle, House Poole, or House Cole. Aegon V could even have founded House Sloane by ennobling the first Sloane. Not everyone with a name is a noble, by the way. Janos Slynt had a family name before he was made a lord.

Again, it's just your assumption. By the way house sloane is listed as noble house so we have no reason to suspect that he was lowborn. There are many noble houses about what we don't know anything: Yelshires, Reddings, Keaths, Algoods and many more. Reason why they weren't mentioned in novels is because they are probably very minor houses (on House Baelish tier). He was stated to be hand of the king since tragedy of summerhall, so he was probably chosen by Jaehaerys II. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, Aerion is a prick, but as far as we know he never actually castrated Egg. Jaime threw Bran out of window, though.

Yeah, but his kind of humour is really sick. But it's true that he never murdered anyone from what we know (as for now).

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

That is irrelevant. If George never gets around writing the stuff it won't be written. Then we'll never have a complete picture of Aerion (and a lot of other characters) but that doesn't mean we have enough information already to make an informed judgment. What we know about the guy is what a sixteen-year-old did at some tourney and how he eventually killed himself. We have no idea whatsoever what he did in the meantime. Was he popular with and well-liked by the Second Sons?

We shall see. But until anything new will be published, we can judge Aerion only from what we know from books. 

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25 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Again, it's just your assumption. By the way house sloane is listed as noble house so we have no reason to suspect that he was lowborn. There are many noble houses about what we don't know anything: Yelshires, Reddings, Keaths, Algoods and many more. Reason why they weren't mentioned in novels is because they are probably very minor houses (on House Baelish tier). He was stated to be hand of the king since tragedy of summerhall, so he was probably chosen by Jaehaerys II. 

I've checked the heraldry section. It includes houses like Poole and Slynt, meaning that not all of them have to be noble in any real sense. And no, Edgar Sloane only became Hand after the death of Lord Ormund Baratheon on the Stepstones. He was certainly chosen by Jaehaerys II but we know that he was one of the people who were leftovers from the reign of Aegon V. It is mentioned that Aerys II retired most of those guys when he named Tywin while his father kept them on the council.

House Sloane could only exist since Aegon V reign - just as Joffrey created House Slynt when he made Janos a lord. The Slynts being listed as a house in the heraldry section doesn't mean they were lords since time immemorial.

25 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Yeah, but his kind of humour is really sick. But it's true that he never murdered anyone from what we know (as for now).

It is the kind of bullying princes in this world do. Just look at Joffrey. He did a lot of the things he did because he could, thanks to his exalted position in this society.

25 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

We shall see. But until anything new will be published, we can judge Aerion only from what we know from books. 

Well, we can also take into consideration the stuff we know through other channels. Just as we can right now refer to TWoW sample chapters and the like.

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22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I've checked the heraldry section. It includes houses like Poole and Slynt, meaning that not all of them have to be noble in any real sense. And no, Edgar Sloane only became Hand after the death of Lord Ormund Baratheon on the Stepstones. He was certainly chosen by Jaehaerys II but we know that he was one of the people who were leftovers from the reign of Aegon V. It is mentioned that Aerys II retired most of those guys when he named Tywin while his father kept them on the council.

House Sloane could only exist since Aegon V reign - just as Joffrey created House Slynt when he made Janos a lord. The Slynts being listed as a house in the heraldry section doesn't mean they were lords since time immemorial.

I checked world of ice and fire and there it writes that Edgar Sloane was hand of king since tragedy of summerhall. Perhaps it is a error. Yeah, it was suggested that Aerys II fired many advisors who worked since reign of Aegon V, but it wasn't confirmed that Edgar was one of them, so it could go either way. Given his old age you may be right.

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is the kind of bullying princes in this world do. Just look at Joffrey. He did a lot of the things he did because he could, thanks to his exalted position in this society.

It is most likely the case. Joffrey was even worse than Aerion, enjoying mutilating and murdering everyone whom he didn't like. Of course Joffrey was king and had much more power than Aerion who was only a prince.

Edited by Paxter Redwyne

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1 hour ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

I checked world of ice and fire and there it writes that Edgar Sloane was hand of king since tragedy of summerhall. Perhaps it is a error. Yeah, it was suggested that Aerys II fired many advisors who worked since reign of Aegon V, but it wasn't confirmed that Edgar was one of them, so it could go either way. Given his old age you may be right.

If that's still in there it is obviously a mistake they overlooked because we know from the section on Jaehaerys II that Ormund Baratheon was Jaehaerys II first Hand.

1 hour ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

It is most likely the case. Joffrey was even worse than Aerion, enjoying mutilating and murdering everyone whom he didn't like. Of course Joffrey was king and had much more power than Aerion who was only a prince.

Well, Joff mostly mistreated Sansa, a girl he grew to loathe after she saw him being humiliated by her younger sister. Not to mention that she became the only Stark he could hurt after Robb had crowned himself. There is also animal cruelty and the men shooting on the peasants on his command, but we don't see him treat a lot of other girls the way he treated Sansa.

Also note the influence of alcohol in all those instances. Joff was drunk during the Mycah incident and also later when he humiliated Tyrion during his own wedding. Aerion was also drunk when he attacked Tanselle and the other puppeteers. Seen in perspective, Joff and Aerion are both bullies who are encouraged by the goons surrounding them due to their princely status. Nobody is going to tell them to their face that their ideas are bad or that they should better not do something. If you are a bully and the grandson of the king who is accompanied by men-at-arms wherever he goes you don't just bully some peasant. You break his or her fingers or bloody him a bit.

And we see this very much in evidence during the conversation between Joff and Sandor Tyrion overhears early on in AGoT. Joff is encouraged and fed cruel and stupid ideas by the thugs that surround them.

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On 22.11.2016 at 8:52 PM, Lord Varys said:

I don't think that this is all that likely. He made it very clear he lives to honor his alleged father and the man's memory. He would have to go very far to drop that. It would be comparable to Dunk admitting he is no knight and therefore dropping his career as a knight.

but Dunk should admit that he isn't a knight at some point, shouldn't he? I wonder if it would be dramatic, and Egg - if he is told - would be angry, or if Egg is going to figure it out himself and be like "whatever, i already know")

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And Glendon freely admitted he would have joined Daemon II with all his heart had the man just asked him and had Peake not insisted on that he lose in the tourney.

when i read it, i felt like it was the start of his disillusion in Blackfyres in general (obviously he can still view other Blackfyres differently)

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That is a possibility but one would think that the High Septon elected shortly after the Great Spring Sickness would be long dead during Aegon V's reign. There might even have been a couple of them in those thirty years.

I've forgotten how much time has passed (although, since everyone starts young in Westeros, if a Septon is in his 30-40 he could live into Egg's reign)

btw, Aerys I shouldn't be that old when he dies from "natural causes" (an illness?), i find it interesting that no one blamed Bloodraven for poisoning him, so did Bloodraven's (and Maekar's) reputation get better during 3d Blackfyre Rebellion-later Aerys's reign?

Edited by Shuvuuia

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39 minutes ago, Shuvuuia said:

but Dunk should admit that he isn't a knight at some point, shouldn't he? I wonder if it would be dramatic, and Egg - if he is told - would be angry, or if Egg is going to figure it out himself and be like "whatever, i already know")

That will definitely be revealed at one point. However, I don't think it will be that big a deal - unless, of course, Dunk continues to lie and ends up knighting Egg or something of that sort. Then he would be pissed.

39 minutes ago, Shuvuuia said:

when i read it, i felt like it was the start of his disillusion in Blackfyres in general (obviously he can still view other Blackfyres differently)

He didn't idolize the Blackfyres all that much, he idolizes his alleged father, and there is no hint that he stopped that hero-worshiping. In fact, Dunk even acknowledges that Fireball was a hero, so there is not much change there.

39 minutes ago, Shuvuuia said:

I've forgotten how much time has passed (although, since everyone starts young in Westeros, if a Septon is in his 30-40 he could live into Egg's reign).

Sure, but I doubt they chose some young man in 209-10 AC.

39 minutes ago, Shuvuuia said:

btw, Aerys I shouldn't be that old when he dies from "natural causes" (an illness?), i find it interesting that no one blamed Bloodraven for poisoning him, so did Bloodraven's (and Maekar's) reputation get better during 3d Blackfyre Rebellion-later Aerys's reign?

Baelor Breakspear was 39 when he died in 209 AC. If Aerys I is, say, two years younger than Baelor he would be 48 when he died in 221 AC. That's not an old age, true, but he was no longer young, either. And he is not described as a particularly healthy person.

The fact that Bloodraven stayed on as Maekar's Hand confirms that he did not blame his uncle for his brother's death - and neither did Aerys I or Maekar blame Bloodraven for the deaths of Rhaegel and Aelor. Whether all people believed Bloodraven had nothing to do with the deaths of so many Targaryens remains to be seen. The Blackfyre partisans also blame him for the Great Spring Sickness, the deaths of the Good King, Valarr, his unborn children, and his younger brother Matarys. This whole thing most likely will continue, and I guess quite a few people will tell stories how Maekar killed Rhaegel and Aelor and eventually Aerys I to finally gain the Iron Throne. That story might circulate already by the time Aerys I named Maekar Prince of Dragonstone in 217 AC.

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On 23.11.2016 at 9:33 PM, Lord Varys said:

Baelor Breakspear was 39 when he died in 209 AC. If Aerys I is, say, two years younger than Baelor he would be 48 when he died in 221 AC. That's not an old age, true, but he was no longer young, either. And he is not described as a particularly healthy person.

Whether all people believed Bloodraven had nothing to do with the deaths of so many Targaryens remains to be seen. The Blackfyre partisans also blame him for the Great Spring Sickness, the deaths of the Good King, Valarr, his unborn children, and his younger brother Matarys. This whole thing most likely will continue, and I guess quite a few people will tell stories how Maekar killed Rhaegel and Aelor and eventually Aerys I to finally gain the Iron Throne. That story might circulate already by the time Aerys I named Maekar Prince of Dragonstone in 217 AC.

Am I wrong or do Targs have quite a short lifespan? Even compared to real people of medieval/ancient times? Maester Aemon seems to be the exception to the rule of short targs lifes.

Yes and some think he "killed" his brother Baelor Breakspear as well, they will talk about that, Maekar says as much in D & E. Stannis reminds me often of Maekar, they seem to have a similar character, and both killed a brother, though in Maekars case it was an accident.

Edited by Bironic

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52 minutes ago, Bironic said:

Am I wrong or do Targs have quite a short lifespan? Even compared to real people of medieval/ancient times? Maester Aemon seems to be the exception to the rule of short targs lifes.

Many Targaryens did indeed die rather young. But then, many of them died of unnatural causes. And there are a few who grew pretty old - Visenya died at 72, Elaena lived past seventy, too, and then there is Maester Aemon. The Conqueror died at 64, and I'm inclined to believe that Maekar and Egg could easily enough have lived for another decade or more, possibly the Good King and Viserys II as well. Not to mention Rhaenyra, Daemon, Aegon II, Aemond, etc. who all met violent ends during the Dance.

But I think George sort of dropped the ball by deciding that Aenys I and Maegor the Cruel were only born this late in the Conqueror's reign. If Aenys I had been born in 1 AC, or even before the Conquest, then Jaehaerys I and Alysanne could have been born earlier, too, making both of them a lot older when they died in 100/103 AC.

After all, the so-called 'Old King' actually didn't even reach the age of Queen Visenya. She died at 72, Jaehaerys I at 69.

But I think there some Targaryens actually are sickly and not likely to live all that long - Aenys I had health problems in his childhood, and Baelor the Blessed, Naerys, Daeron II, Aerys I, Rhaegel, Vaella, and Jaehaerys II never are described as very healthy. It is hardly surprising that they did not live to old age.

And by the way, I still wonder whether Aegon III dying of consumption is really true. It would be much more fitting if he just killed himself without even bothering to write a suicide note. Just leaving the castle and going for one long last swim in the Blackwater Bay.

But we should also keep in mind that dying in the 40-60s is actually getting pretty old in medieval times. A lot of things couldn't be healed, and a lot of sicknesses simply killed you, not to mention the other dangers you are surrounded by if you are living at court.

Edited by Lord Varys

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Many Targaryens did indeed die rather young. But then, many of them died of unnatural causes. And there are a few who grew pretty old - Visenya died at 72, Elaena lived past seventy, too, and then there is Maester Aemon. The Conqueror died at 64, and I'm inclined to believe that Maekar and Egg could easily enough have lived for another decade or more, possibly the Good King and Viserys II as well. Not to mention Rhaenyra, Daemon, Aegon II, Aemond, etc. who all met violent ends during the Dance.

But I think George sort of dropped the ball by deciding that Aenys I and Maegor the Cruel were only born this late in the Conqueror's reign. If Aenys I had been born in 1 AC, or even before the Conquest, then Jaehaerys I and Alysanne could have been born earlier, too, making both of them a lot older when they died in 100/103 AC.

After all, the so-called 'Old King' actually didn't even reach the age of Queen Visenya. She died at 72, Jaehaerys I at 69.

But I think there some Targaryens actually are sickly and not likely to live all that long - Aenys I had health problems in his childhood, and Baelor the Blessed, Naerys, Daeron II, Aerys I, Rhaegel, Vaella, and Jaehaerys II never are described as very healthy. It is hardly surprising that they did not live to old age.

And by the way, I still wonder whether Aegon III dying of consumption is really true. It would be much more fitting if he just killed himself without even bothering to write a suicide note. Just leaving the castle and going for one long last swim in the Blackwater Bay.

But we should also keep in mind that dying in the 40-60s is actually getting pretty old in medieval times. A lot of things couldn't be healed, and a lot of sicknesses simply killed you, not to mention the other dangers you are surrounded by if you are living at court.

Yes it's true a lot died of unnatural causes.

Augustus was never described as healthy as well and he died at 76. Maybe the whole incest thing was bad for the Targs, afaik some of our own noble houses such as the romanows or habsburgians had health issues because of inbreeding.

Interesting notion about Aegon III's suicide, fits in well with his life & character.

The last paragraph isn't really true, the main problem in medieval times was that most died young, if you managed to reach adulthood you had  a good chance to get quite old (not as old as today but still). So we should have lots of people that died as kids or adolescents in ASOIAF.

Edited by Bironic

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