Crazy solution for why Jaqen was in the Black Cells

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

43 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Going by interviews by GRRM it seems it was just decided that he would place him there, I don't think he ever wrote a definitive back story to how he got there. He may never do that. 

I remember reading about his explanation for Syrio and he just said he never gave it much thought and that Syrio was just in the city at the time. Very breezy response as if to say, look he was there and that's all you need to know.

He does that shit sometimes. Jaqen was there, we may just have to accept that. It's what his plans are now that will be the most important thing. 

 

Probably. As readers who have read the books multiple times we want there to be a reason behind everything. This is because, in many cases, George gives us one. For most characters of significance we have a story for why they did something or why they were here or there. Often times different reasons are found and discussed on these forums. 

But...

In my opinion we need a reason for JH being in KL and how (if) he was caught and put in the black cells. George has turned the FM into a secretive assassins group who is very good at what they do. It doesn't seem to fit JH's character to be "caught" and arrested. So we speculate that he was there on purpose, but if he was there on purpose, why? JH is a special character in regards of his abilities to be unseen and overlooked. For him to be locked up with Rorge and Biter because he "got caught" is extremely unsatisfying. If he was caught in an assassination attempt, wouldn't we hear about it from someone? I don't know, I'm hoping we get some more information on this in tWoW.

[Macgregor of the North]

15 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Probably. As readers who have read the books multiple times we want there to be a reason behind everything

But lots of times there isnt.

15 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

This is because, in many cases, George gives us one.

There are also instances where he doesnt.

16 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Often times different reasons are found and discussed on these forums. 

True, but in this instance the reason will not be found, from the book text so far anyway, as its likely, going by GRRM's comments on the matter, that he simply has not written the detailed back story of how exactly Jaqen got to be in the black cells.

Believe me, i would love an explanation and hope we get one but if im honest it will probably be one of those never answered ones. It happens. All we have is possibilities conjured up by us all which are highly speculative, which theres nothing wrong with.

19 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

In my opinion we need a reason for JH being in KL and how (if) he was caught and put in the black cells

Yes we need a reason for Jaqen being in KL, that is quite a big deal to me, but we dont actually 'need' a fully fleshed out explanation of how he ended up there in the cells, although it would be cool if we got one. GRRM sometimes just does not give us all the details, thats all im saying.

[Scootaloo Stark]

4 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

True, but in this instance the reason will not be found, from the book text so far anyway, as its likely, going by GRRM's comments on the matter, that he simply has not written the detailed back story of how exactly Jaqen got to be in the black cells.

Believe me, i would love an explanation and hope we get one but if im honest it will probably be one of those never answered ones. It happens. All we have is possibilities conjured up by us all which are highly speculative, which theres nothing wrong with.

Yes we need a reason for Jaqen being in KL, that is quite a big deal to me, but we dont actually 'need' a fully fleshed out explanation of how he ended up there in the cells, although it would be cool if we got one. GRRM sometimes just does not give us all the details, thats all im saying.

I'd actually be okay with GRRM saying that Jaqen simply got caught (he's good, but not perfect, maybe he just had bad luck). As long as he says anything. Any explanation, no matter how simple and short, is better than none.

[Macgregor of the North]

2 minutes ago, Scootaloo Stark said:

I'd actually be okay with GRRM saying that Jaqen simply got caught (he's good, but not perfect, maybe he just had bad luck). As long as he says anything. Any explanation, no matter how simple and short, is better than none.

I agree, id like something more from GRRM explaining how he ended up there.

I want to know more details all the time too like all of us, like why exactly do Rorge and Biter give him respect and even seem to fear him. Is it because he is such a strange calm character who just gives you that scary vibe?, or have they saw him perform some kind of scary FM trick like cut someones face off? Maybe we will never know. There may just never be a back story of some first mission of his that saw him appear in the black cells of KL.

We are maybe just supposed to show interest in where he is going from there on and what his palns are going forward rather than where hes been and what were he's plans to get there.

But this is asoiaf so of course we are gonna ponder every detail. Its what we do.

 

[Macgregor of the North]

I found the interview I was referring to, I'll quote it here. It may help clarify my point a bit. I've left the Syrio question too as I think it helps to show them the way they are as you can see he refers to the Syrio topic in his Jaqen answer as though it's the same scenario, as in something he just never really gave much thought too.

How did Ned Stark run into Syrio Forel?

"Well, I’ve never given it much thought. Ned was searching for a fencing master who could teach Arya, and he knew it couldn’t not be a conventional master at arms or a knight, or the castle master at arms, because he didn’t think his young daughter could handle a broadsword (or maybe longsword) the way man with greater strength in their torso could, so he decided the Braavosi style suited her best. Who was available in the city that might fit the bill? Obviously, somebody had to recommend him to Ned. I believe Syrio must have been in the city at the time, because there wasn’t enough time to send for someone all the way from Braavos."

How did Jaqen H’ghar wind up in the dungeons of King’s Landing?

"Wow, that’s also a mystery (laughs). You really pay attention when you read, don’t you? (laughs) How many theories have you gleaned from these books? (more laughs)."

I personally think interview answers are valuable pieces of info sometimes and in this instance I'm quite settled that GRRM shows that he (at that point I'll add) had never really sat down and wrote out deep details of how/why Jaqen ended up in the black cells/dungeons of KL.

So really what were left to do is form our own ideas, which is fun to do of course but in the end we may never ever get to know if they even came close to what GRRMS idea was, if he even ever had one in any great detail in the first place.

Of course though guys maybe I'm just being boring haha!. It's awesome to form cool ideas but in this instance I'm just not convinced we will ever get the chance to confirm or compare our ideas.

 

[Jasemina]

5 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 

I personally think interview answers are valuable pieces of info sometimes and in this instance I'm quite settled that GRRM shows that he (at that point I'll add) had never really sat down and wrote out deep details of how/why Jaqen ended up in the black cells/dungeons of KL.

 

or maybe he answered so because they asked him about jaqen hgar and if they guy was killed by a faceless man, who later took his identity, then we may not need a reason for why and how he was caught and put in the cells and his answer would be this exact same thing cos i guess we all can agree jaqen hgar was just one of the many identities that he took

 

same can go for syrio...maybe he wasnt syrio since the begining and was in KL for a specific job? or maybe he was syrio but had a mission there and maybe even he wanted to be found by ned and get in red keep for his mission? question is how did ned run into syrio and not why syrio was in kings landing, same can go with jaqen question

[Macgregor of the North]

3 minutes ago, Jasemina said:

or maybe he answered so because they asked him about jaqen hgar and if they guy was killed by a faceless man, who later took his identity, then we may not need a reason for why and how he was caught and put in the cells and his answer would be this exact same thing cos i guess we all can agree jaqen hgar was just one of the many identities that he took

 

same can go for syrio...maybe he wasnt syrio since the begining and was in KL for a specific job? or maybe he was syrio but had a mission there and maybe even he wanted to be found by ned and get in red keep for his mission? question is how did ned run into syrio and not why syrio was in kings landing, same can go with jaqen question

Maybe indeeed.

I am personally settled though that in these instances he likely hadn't wrote out big detailed reasons for either. They were just there as it served the plot going forward.

Think about Jaime and Cersei having sex at the top of an abandoned tower. We can question that from all sorts of angles like, did anybody see them go there?, isn't that crazy risky behaviour? When Jaime threw Bran what the hell happened in regards to how Cersei and Jaime both managed to get all their clothes back on, which includes quite a lot for females with small clothes and hose etc.?? They were naked.

Did they just get all their clothes on really quickly and run down all disheveled and enquire after the boys health after he fell? Didn't this raise suspicions?. 

I do not think GRRM gave this much thought if I'm honest. Basically, Jaime and Cersei are just there and that's that, we have to swallow that.

So there is a healthy chance, backed up by GRRMS interview comments that Syrio and Jaqen are indeed just there too and the plot begins from there and that's that. 

 

[aryagonnakill#2]

Arya has successfully lied to the FM after only like a year of training, they are not perfect.

People have been saying LF hired them to kill Ned for years, but no one has answered my question as to why LF did not have to pay.  If that is your theory you have to finish the theory.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

3 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

1)But lots of times there isnt. 

2)There are also instances where he doesnt.

 

1) I said many times. And it's what we want, not what is. Obviously there are times there isnt.

2) Of course, I didn't say all.

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 11/21/2016 at 2:06 PM, John Suburbs said:

If Jaq was in the Black Cells because he was hired to kill someone in the RK, then the only reason he would leave (and yes, he is leaving of his own accord) is if that person is dead: either by his, or someone else's, hand.

So that suggests to me that he was brought in to kill Ned, since Ned is the only figure to have recently died to warrant the cost of an FM. So my hunch is that J was placed in the BCs by Littlefinger, just as an insurance policy to prevent Ned from blabbing to the queen about their little conversation just before Robert died, plus other matters, like the knife lie.

 

Yes!

[SFDanny]

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Yes!

it seems to me your theory misses something. That is Baelish's need to get rid of Jon Arryn because his schemes are discovered by Lord Arryn and Stannis. Let me suggest an alternative. Suppose Littlefinger hires the FM to kill Jon Arryn, but Varys intervenes and the FM ends up in his control. Littlefinger needs to kill Jon Arryn and has to get his hands dirty with the involvement of Lysa, and miracle of miracle Lysa actually succeeds in poisoning her husband with the problem being she has provoked the interest of Varys and Jon's squire. Varys decides to use the FM for his own needs and sends him out on a mission to get a certain book in the basements of the Citadel. Just a guess, of course.

[Macgregor of the North]

3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Yes!

Could you clarify again exactly why LF wanted to kill Ned Stark with the use of an extremely expensive FM.

[Jon Fossoway]

He probably had some business in the Red Keep and he actually let himself be caught. They threw him in the Black Cells knowing he is a Faceless Man and how you deal with one of the deadliest asassins in the world? For one, cut off his communications with the outside until deciding wth to do next. Biter and Rorge most  probably saw him change the face... and you know, being locked with a member of the deadliest assasins in the known world can be scary.

The man to kill was probably Ned, as someone pointed.

I don't think it's very hard of a solution. Sometimes the simplest one, in a saga so long as this one, is the one.

[Macgregor of the North]

27 minutes ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

He probably had some business in the Red Keep and he actually let himself be caught. They threw him in the Black Cells knowing he is a Faceless Man and how you deal with one of the deadliest asassins in the world? For one, cut off his communications with the outside until deciding wth to do next. Biter and Rorge most  probably saw him change the face... and you know, being locked with a member of the deadliest assasins in the known world can be scary.

The man to kill was probably Ned, as someone pointed.

I don't think it's very hard of a solution. Sometimes the simplest one, in a saga so long as this one, is the one.

Bearing in mind that GRRM has never once hinted he has even created a backstory of how Jaqen came to be there, he just has him there and explains it as a mystery akin to why Syrio was in KL- "he must have been in the city". He has mentioned them both in an interview in relation to each other as in they are both something "he never gave much thought".

Anything else is simply made up back story by people who read the story as there is no back story written that we know of.

I'll play along though. Questions.

Who hired the FM to kill Ned?

What is their motive to spend the unbelievable amount of money this would have cost to have Ned Stark killed?

When exactly was this FM hired?

Do you think who hired the FM has a say in how the FM would do the killing?

If no, and the FM decides all the details, do you believe that this same FM who breezed round a busy Harrenhal casually killing, would go to all the trouble of having himself arrested for a terrible crime, risking execution, because he anticipated that Ned would get sent to the black cells, when he could have simply just killed Ned in the open under different circumstances?.

Do you think the FM's plan was to kill Ned in the cells?

Or was the plan to kill Ned on the way to the Wall, based on the assumption that he(the FM) and Ned would both be sent there?

I'll leave it there for now and see where this goes.

[SisterWithoutBanners]

On 21.11.2016 at 7:04 PM, Sigella said:

I always thought that he was Syrio Forel, with the explanation that he changed his face while in the dungeons.

Yeah, I always thought so as well!

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Taking the George's (a bit embarrassed, maybe?) interview answers, I'm inclined to believe that indeed, there is no backstory for Jaqen being in the Black Cells (as maddeningly underwhelming it was). Just like almost all those buildings in your colorful Western town don't have anything inside, they have no inside at all, only the fronts were built.

Sadly, because nobody, me included, is fine with "Jaqen H'ghar? Oh, he just was there". Which may be the only real answer.

[Macgregor of the North]

32 minutes ago, SisterWithoutBanners said:

Yeah, I always thought so as well!

I have thought so in the past also but in time have changed my tune.

The undergaoler Longwaters seems to have paid a deal of attention to the three in the cells (Jaqen, Rorge and biter) going by his comments so i think he may have noticed if one was once a bald older man but suddenly changed into a younger comely man with strange hair of two different colours.

Syrio seems to have been a short lived character who was an important plot device for Arya to learn some vital life lessons and also manage to escape and continue her own storyline, but his popularity(probably amped up by the show) have helped many build up theories he is still around under a new guise which nowadays im less and less sure of.

Also, im not sure and i would have to check but wasnt Jaqen already in the cells by the time Syrio had the fight and Arya escaped?. 

[The hairy bear]

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 

Also, im not sure and i would have to check but wasnt Jaqen already in the cells by the time Syrio had the fight and Arya escaped?. 

Yes. From AFFC, we are told that: "The black cells are little used. Before [Tyrion] was sent down, we had Grand Maester Pycelle for a time, and before him Lord Stark the traitor. There were three others, common men, but Lord Stark gave them to the Night’s Watch." So Jaqen was already a prisoner before Eddard's downfall.

 

On 22/11/2016 at 2:37 PM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

 George has turned the FM into a secretive assassins group who is very good at what they do. It doesn't seem to fit JH's character to be "caught" and arrested. So we speculate that he was there on purpose, but if he was there on purpose, why? JH is a special character in regards of his abilities to be unseen and overlooked. For him to be locked up with Rorge and Biter because he "got caught" is extremely unsatisfying.

We will be wrong if we assume that the Faceless Man are superhuman assassins. Arya is learning to be one of them, and besides the ability to change faces, it does not seem to be anything else there. If they are caught doing something illegal and the City Watch tries to catch them, we have no reason to believe that they will be able to outrun them, or defeat them in a fight.

[Jon Fossoway]

2 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Taking the George's (a bit embarrassed, maybe?) interview answers, I'm inclined to believe that indeed, there is no backstory for Jaqen being in the Black Cells (as maddeningly underwhelming it was). Just like almost all those buildings in your colorful Western town don't have anything inside, they have no inside at all, only the fronts were built.

Sadly, because nobody, me included, is fine with "Jaqen H'ghar? Oh, he just was there". Which may be the only real answer.

Could be that, too. When building a plot you don't have to put deep backstories in everything. I think a lot of us are misled with how quickly he can deliver da' doom and take an entire castle by himself like he did in Harrenhal.

I wonder if George had developed the Faceless Men guild plot at the point he wrote Clash. Sometimes for me it feels he snowballed a lot of secondary plots and because of that some things in the first books seem a little off. Can't blame him really. If I recall correctly, this whole mess started with a short story about Dany, him being a writer of short stories and novels.

[a black swan]

55 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

Yes. From AFFC, we are told that: "The black cells are little used. Before [Tyrion] was sent down, we had Grand Maester Pycelle for a time, and before him Lord Stark the traitor. There were three others, common men, but Lord Stark gave them to the Night’s Watch." So Jaqen was already a prisoner before Eddard's downfall.

 

We will be wrong if we assume that the Faceless Man are superhuman assassins. Arya is learning to be one of them, and besides the ability to change faces, it does not seem to be anything else there. If they are caught doing something illegal and the City Watch tries to catch them, we have no reason to believe that they will be able to outrun them, or defeat them in a fight.

So you're saying the FM can't fight?