Possible Discrepancy in Aerys II's Kingsguard

[All-Seeing Aye]

There is possibly a discrepancy in the Kingsguard of Aerys II.

Gerold Hightower: joined the Kingsguard before or in 259 AC, when he became Lord Commander after the death of Ser Duncan the Tall

Arthur Dayne: was already in the Kingsguard in 276 AC, when he participated in the tourney in honor of Viserys's birth (per TWOIAF)

Lewyn Martell: unknown when he joined the Kingsguard, but was an older man (uncle of Doran Martell, who was born in 247 AC or 248 AC)

Oswell Whent: unknown when he joined the Kingsguard, but was the brother of Walter Whent (who was old enough to have four knighted sons in 281 AC)

Barristan Selmy: joined the Kingsguard in 260 AC

Jonothor Darry: unknown when he joined the Kingsguard, but was (semi-canon) the brother of Ser Willem Darry (who was already old enough to be master-at-arms of the Red Keep when Rhaegar was a child)

Gwayne Gaunt: killed in 277 AC when Aerys II was taken captive at the start of the Defiance of Duskendale

Harlan Grandison: died in 281 AC, was an older man

Jaime Lannister: joined the Kingsguard in 281 AC to replace Ser Harlan Grandison

So mapping out Kingsguard succession around 277 AC-281 AC looks something like this:

Hightower

Dayne

Martell

Whent

Selmy

Darry

Gaunt>?

Grandison>Lannister

There are eight instead of seven 'slots'.  The problem is: who succeeded Gwayne Gaunt?  We know with absolute certainty that Hightower, Selmy, Dayne, and Grandison were already in the Kingsguard in 277 AC, so that leaves Martell, Whent, and Darry as the possible candidates.  I hope I've shown above how these three are already much older than typical Kingsguard appointees would be, so either there was some urgent reason to appoint an older man to a Kingsguard already full of older men or GRRM made a mistake with the succession.

Thoughts?  I think it's probably just a simple mistake but, stretching the bounds of age, I could see Oswell Whent being appointed (late twenties, with a brother ten or so years older with knighted sons).

[Isobel Harper]

4 hours ago, All-Seeing Aye said:

There is possibly a discrepancy in the Kingsguard of Aerys II.

Gerold Hightower: joined the Kingsguard before or in 259 AC, when he became Lord Commander after the death of Ser Duncan the Tall

Arthur Dayne: was already in the Kingsguard in 276 AC, when he participated in the tourney in honor of Viserys's birth (per TWOIAF)

Lewyn Martell: unknown when he joined the Kingsguard, but was an older man (uncle of Doran Martell, who was born in 247 AC or 248 AC)

Oswell Whent: unknown when he joined the Kingsguard, but was the brother of Walter Whent (who was old enough to have four knighted sons in 281 AC)

Barristan Selmy: joined the Kingsguard in 260 AC

Jonothor Darry: unknown when he joined the Kingsguard, but was (semi-canon) the brother of Ser Willem Darry (who was already old enough to be master-at-arms of the Red Keep when Rhaegar was a child)

Gwayne Gaunt: killed in 277 AC when Aerys II was taken captive at the start of the Defiance of Duskendale

Harlan Grandison: died in 281 AC, was an older man

Jaime Lannister: joined the Kingsguard in 281 AC to replace Ser Harlan Grandison

So mapping out Kingsguard succession around 277 AC-281 AC looks something like this:

Hightower

Dayne

Martell

Whent

Selmy

Darry

Gaunt>?

Grandison>Lannister

There are eight instead of seven 'slots'.  The problem is: who succeeded Gwayne Gaunt?  We know with absolute certainty that Hightower, Selmy, Dayne, and Grandison were already in the Kingsguard in 277 AC, so that leaves Martell, Whent, and Darry as the possible candidates.  I hope I've shown above how these three are already much older than typical Kingsguard appointees would be, so either there was some urgent reason to appoint an older man to a Kingsguard already full of older men or GRRM made a mistake with the succession.

Thoughts?  I think it's probably just a simple mistake but, stretching the bounds of age, I could see Oswell Whent being appointed (late twenties, with a brother ten or so years older with knighted sons).

Oswell Whent and Jonothor Darry were likely younger than Walter and Willem, respectively. First born sons are those responsible for being heirs and future lords; younger sons are usually those given to orders such as KG, Citadel, Night's Watch, etc. 

We don't know how much younger Oswell and Jonothor, but being 1, 5, or even 10 years younger than their respective brothers would not be a stretch in this world.  But without even knowing Walter or Willem's ages,  it's all just guesswork. 

I'll take a stab at Jonothor Darry's age.  Let's say Willem became Master of Arms in his 20s.  Jonothor was, therefore, probably in his 10s or 20s at that time.  If Jonothor was in his 10s or 20s when Rhaegar was a young boy (in 260s), then Jonothor would have been 20-40ish when/if he replaced Gaunt in 277.  20-40(ish) is not a bad age range for a man to join the KG

 

[SFDanny]

I think Martell comes north with his niece in 280 when she marries Rhaegar. This is the quote that supports this:

Quote

The Dornishmen who had come to court with the Princess Elia were in the prince's confidence as well, particularly Prince Lewyn Martell, Elia's uncle and a Sworn Brother of the Kingsguard. (TWoI&F 125)

It doesn't tell us when he joins the Kingsguard, but it does place him among the Dornishmen who come to court with Elia.

[The hairy bear]

Yeah, it's clear that Lewys Martell came in the KG after Gwayne Gaunt's death, and possibly he even substituted him. The defiance of Duskendale is in 277, and Rhaegar is betrothed to Elia in 279.

Given that after the defiance Aerys became increasingly paranoid and the relationship with Tywin was strained, it would make sense that selecting a new KG would take some time.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

When Dunk got his white cloak from Aegon V, he was in his forties, I think, and he certainly was up to the job. So forty doesn't constitute "older man" for a knight of the Kingsguard.

Lewyn Martell could be the one (appointed for, among others, political reasons).

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

I'd say, since they were friends of Rhaegar, that Oswell Whent and Arthur Dayne were close to Rhaegar in age. Therefore, Whent would make sense as the replacement of Gaunt. I don't remember when Aerys started mistrusting Rhaegar, though. If that was before Duskendale, it would make more sense if Whent was already appointed by then.

In-universe Lady Waynwood has a son who is younger than her grandson, the gap between Viserys and Rhaegar is over 15 years, and don't even get me started on the Freys! Therefore, I wouldn't say the ages of the children of the Kingsguards' older brothers are a good indication of the Kingsguards' own ages.

[All-Seeing Aye]

On 11/23/2016 at 5:10 AM, The hairy bear said:

Yeah, it's clear that Lewys Martell came in the KG after Gwayne Gaunt's death, and possibly he even substituted him. The defiance of Duskendale is in 277, and Rhaegar is betrothed to Elia in 279.

Given that after the defiance Aerys became increasingly paranoid and the relationship with Tywin was strained, it would make sense that selecting a new KG would take some time.

I actually think that Aerys would make it a priority to name a new Kingsguard as soon as possible, given that henceforth they were the only ones who were allowed blades in his presence.  Regardless of later suspicions, like using Elia as a hostage against Lewyn and the Dornish during the Battle of the Trident to ensure their loyalty on the battlefield, I think he would never have conceived of any of them attacking him personally.  In fact, I'd imagine that Barristan's heroic rescue would have confirmed Aerys's belief that only the Kingsguard were loyal, as opposed to Tywin and Rhaegar (even though Gwayne Gaunt died, he fell in service to his king).  With his increased paranoia I'd think he'd want to feel as secure as possible holed up in the Red Keep.

 

On 11/23/2016 at 2:11 AM, SFDanny said:

I think Martell comes north with his niece in 280 when she marries Rhaegar. This is the quote that supports this:

It doesn't tell us when he joins the Kingsguard, but it does place him among the Dornishmen who come to court with Elia.

I'd forgotten this line, thanks for bringing it up.  I think the quote is still ambiguous, since as you note it doesn't place the specific timing of his joining the Kingsguard.  But it definitely seems plausible that Lewyn Martell, an older but distinguished knight being brought into the Kingsguard to safeguard his niece, would have been part of the marriage pact.  That said, it couldn't have been a plan directly from Gwayne Gaunt's death because it was only after Steffon Baratheon's failure to find a bride for Rhaegar in Volantis that the betrothal to Elia happened, and given his age (regardless of precedent like Dunk, who was a pretty unique case) I don't think Lewyn would have been an obvious choice barring a political reason like the marraige pact.  The only issue, as I mention above, is that I think Aerys would want to fill the spot as soon as possible, and waiting ~2 years seems a little long (but that aside I think this is the best way to read the situation, and the Jonothor or Oswell solution still works).

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 23-11-2016 at 11:10 AM, The hairy bear said:

Yeah, it's clear that Lewys Martell came in the KG after Gwayne Gaunt's death, and possibly he even substituted him. The defiance of Duskendale is in 277, and Rhaegar is betrothed to Elia in 279.

Given that after the defiance Aerys became increasingly paranoid and the relationship with Tywin was strained, it would make sense that selecting a new KG would take some time.

I completely agree. The defiance of Duskendale lasted half a year, and Rhaegar and Elia were betrothed in early 279 AC, so that would leave a gap of a year, a year and a half max.

 

18 hours ago, All-Seeing Aye said:

I actually think that Aerys would make it a priority to name a new Kingsguard as soon as possible, given that henceforth they were the only ones who were allowed blades in his presence.  Regardless of later suspicions, like using Elia as a hostage against Lewyn and the Dornish during the Battle of the Trident to ensure their loyalty on the battlefield, I think he would never have conceived of any of them attacking him personally.  In fact, I'd imagine that Barristan's heroic rescue would have confirmed Aerys's belief that only the Kingsguard were loyal, as opposed to Tywin and Rhaegar (even though Gwayne Gaunt died, he fell in service to his king).  With his increased paranoia I'd think he'd want to feel as secure as possible holed up in the Red Keep.

But, giving his paranoid state of mind, who could he entrust with his life? That would have been a question for which Aerys might not easily have had an answer to.

 

On 23-11-2016 at 8:11 AM, SFDanny said:

I think Martell comes north with his niece in 280 when she marries Rhaegar. This is the quote that supports this:

It doesn't tell us when he joins the Kingsguard, but it does place him among the Dornishmen who come to court with Elia.

Which leaves us with the question of "when did Elia come to KL?". Personally, I think this could have been as early as 279 AC, upon the announcement of the betrothal. (For example, both Sansa and Margaery went to live at court after they had been betrothed to Joffrey). 

[Eden-Mackenzie]

There is a sort of reverse precedent for Lewyn Martell being named to the Kingsguard at or around the same time as Elia's engagement to Rhaegar: Loras being named to fill then next available Kingsguard position was part of the negotiations for Margaery's betrothal to Joffrey. By the time of Elia's betrothal, Arianne had already been born, resulting in Lewyn being one more place removed from inheriting, and with the Martell succession reasonably secure, it would make sense for Princess Martell to try to secure a prominent position for her brother. 

As to Aerys's paranoia, I think it is worth noting that Mama Martell decided to try for the Targaryen engagement after being snubbed by Tywin. With both parties eager to upstage Tywin, placing a Martell in the vacant Kingsguard position could gave been another way to say "fuck you" to Tywin - especially if Tywin had been campaigning in favor of someone else, such as one of his brothers or some other loyal (to Tywin) Westerman. 

[Adam Yozza]

As others have said above either Whent or Darry could be the one who replaces Gaunt.

Whent was the younger brother of Lord Whent who, as you noted, had four knighted sons in 281. But that doesn't make Oswell too old to join the KG in 277. After all, Stevron Frey is a lot older than Elmar Frey. So even if Walter was 50 at the time of the defiance, Oswell being 20 years younger isn't impossible.

The same applies for Darry.

Of course it's also possible that some other insignificant third or fourth son of a minor house was named to the KG to replace Gaunt, and died two years later, he himself being replaced by Lewyn.