Jump to content

Has Littlefinger interacted with Mandon Moore?


Daendrew

Recommended Posts

34 minutes ago, TheDrunkenDornishman said:

Not that I can recall, although that doesn't necessarily prove anything. I don't remember Baelish interacting with Osney, Osfryd, or Osmund Kettleblack, but they work for him.

 

That's a good point. 

I think Baelish was behind Tyrion's botched assassination but there is little evidence. I think it's purposefully one of those things that will never be revealed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Daendrew said:

I think Baelish was behind Tyrion's botched assassination but there is little evidence. I think it's purposefully one of those things that will never be revealed.

Baelish or Cersei. I'd go with Baelish, too. Doesn't quite sound like Cersei's style. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Light a wight tonight said:

Baelish or Cersei. I'd go with Baelish, too. Doesn't quite sound like Cersei's style. 

Baelish was in highgarden at the time. It would be rather difficult or him to order Tyrion's murder. Mandon Moore seemed to obey only royal family anyway. More likely is that Joffrey ordered to kill him as revenge for humiliating him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Baelish was in highgarden at the time. It would be rather difficult or him to order Tyrion's murder. Mandon Moore seemed to obey only royal family anyway. More likely is that Joffrey ordered to kill him as revenge for humiliating him.

Tyrion was commanding the defense of King's Landing from a far larger army whose goal was to remove Joffrey's head from his shoulders and/or burn him alive. Joffrey hated Tyrion, no doubt, but I doubt he was willing to risk his own life to kill him.

For me, it's a textbook Littlefinger tactic of manipulating events so that he comes out ahead regardless of what happens. If Moore succeeds but the Lannisters still win then Littlefinger has eliminated a rival. If Moore fails then he'll sow even more discord between the Lannisters and if Stannis wins then Littlefinger is protected by the largest army in the realm. Even if the plot was somehow discovered, there's little evidence and he'd have every right to be outraged at any accusation given that he'd got the Tyrells onside. As for giving the order, well, all he had to say was "If you get a chance to kill the Imp during the battle, do it".

It's circumstantial evidence, granted, but with what little we know about Moore, combined with what we know about Littlefinger's relationship with Lysa, and her relationship with Jon Arryn, I think it's reasonable to conclude that his ascent to the Kingsguard was because of Littlefinger.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, UnFit Finlay said:

Tyrion was commanding the defense of King's Landing from a far larger army whose goal was to remove Joffrey's head from his shoulders and/or burn him alive. Joffrey hated Tyrion, no doubt, but I doubt he was willing to risk his own life to kill him.

For me, it's a textbook Littlefinger tactic of manipulating events so that he comes out ahead regardless of what happens. If Moore succeeds but the Lannisters still win then Littlefinger has eliminated a rival. If Moore fails then he'll sow even more discord between the Lannisters and if Stannis wins then Littlefinger is protected by the largest army in the realm. Even if the plot was somehow discovered, there's little evidence and he'd have every right to be outraged at any accusation given that he'd got the Tyrells onside. As for giving the order, well, all he had to say was "If you get a chance to kill the Imp during the battle, do it".

It's circumstantial evidence, granted, but with what little we know about Moore, combined with what we know about Littlefinger's relationship with Lysa, and her relationship with Jon Arryn, I think it's reasonable to conclude that his ascent to the Kingsguard was because of Littlefinger.

In what way Joffrey was risking his life? Joffrey is dumb and rash. Ordering murder of Tyrion totally fits to his behavior. Tyrion have beaten him and undermined his authority.

Mandon Moore has no friend but his sword and no life but his duty. He is emotionless bodyguard. He obeyed only king. There is no single evidence that he was puppet of littlefinger. Petyr was around 16 years old when Robert became king and named Jon Arryn as his hand. First time we know Petyr used Lysa for his own benefits was in 289 AC, when Mandon Moore was already in kingsguard.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

In what way Joffrey was risking his life? Joffrey is dumb and rash. Ordering murder of Tyrion totally fits to his behavior. Tyrion have beaten him and undermined his authority.

Mandon Moore has no friend but his sword and no life but his duty. He is emotionless bodyguard. He obeyed only king. There is no single evidence that he was puppet of littlefinger. Petyr was around 16 years old when Robert became king and named Jon Arryn as his hand. First time we know Petyr used Lysa for his own benefits was in 289 AC, when Mandon Moore was already in kingsguard.

"In what way was Joffrey risking his life?" Murdering the guy who is in charge of protecting you really isn't a good idea is it? If Moore killed Tyrion at the wrong moment then it could've turned the battle in Stannis' favour. If that happens then Joffrey's dead. There's dumb and rash and then there's flat out suicidal. Its the same reason I don't believe Cersei ordered it. Ultimately, the only suspect who wasn't in danger from it was Littlefinger.

What does Littlefinger's age when Robert took the Throne have to do with anything? We know Lysa was madly in love with Littlefinger and we know that Jon Arryn was desperate to please his unhappy wife. We also know that Jon Arryn didn't particularly like Moore. Is it really that unrealistic that Littlefinger asked Lysa to convince her husband to give Moore a white cloak and that he did so, to try and please her? Considering Littlefinger's known allies include Lyn Corbray, who is best known for hating Littlefinger, it seems bizarre to rule it out. Leaving no evidence is what Littlefinger does best..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If it had been Joffrey - why don't we know that already? Why no reveal, two books after his unlamented death? There's no profit from keeping us in the dark, only so we could learn yet another bad thing about Joffrey in Book 6 or Book 7. We won't care, it won't change anything. I think that had it been Joff, we'd have learned about that about the same time we learned about the dagger. Unless GRRM got a little sloppy and Ser Mandon slipped his mind (which isn't impossible).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

If it had been Joffrey - why don't we know that already? Why no reveal, two books after his unlamented death? There's no profit from keeping us in the dark, only so we could learn yet another bad thing about Joffrey in Book 6 or Book 7. We won't care, it won't change anything. I think that had it been Joff, we'd have learned about that about the same time we learned about the dagger. Unless GRRM got a little sloppy and Ser Mandon slipped his mind (which isn't impossible).

What's there to reveal? We've already been given two and two, Martin doesn't need to explicitly spell out they add up to four.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

"In what way was Joffrey risking his life?" Murdering the guy who is in charge of protecting you really isn't a good idea is it? If Moore killed Tyrion at the wrong moment then it could've turned the battle in Stannis' favour. If that happens then Joffrey's dead. There's dumb and rash and then there's flat out suicidal. Its the same reason I don't believe Cersei ordered it. Ultimately, the only suspect who wasn't in danger from it was Littlefinger.

What does Littlefinger's age when Robert took the Throne have to do with anything? We know Lysa was madly in love with Littlefinger and we know that Jon Arryn was desperate to please his unhappy wife. We also know that Jon Arryn didn't particularly like Moore. Is it really that unrealistic that Littlefinger asked Lysa to convince her husband to give Moore a white cloak and that he did so, to try and please her? Considering Littlefinger's known allies include Lyn Corbray, who is best known for hating Littlefinger, it seems bizarre to rule it out. Leaving no evidence is what Littlefinger does best..

You think that Joffrey really thought that Tyrion was protecting him? Joffrey doesn't have knowledge what we readers have. He was oblivious that what Tyrion was doing was for his own good. And by that logic, Littlefinger ordering murder of Tyrion is even dumber, considering that he schemed to make Margaery queen to gain Harrenhal. If by killing Tyrion he turned battle in Stannis' favour, he would gain absolutely nothing. 

You think that 16 years old Petyr was already a genius mastermind? Jon Arryn gave no shit about Lysa being unhappy. He needed wife only to give him heir. And he didn't needed to like Moore to notice that he is very skilled fighter. 

Yes it is unrealistic that Littlefinger asked Lysa to convince her husband to give a white cloak to Mandon. Petyr was at the Fingers at the time, still sulking after losing Catelyn. He had no influence over Jon Arryn at the time. I doubt that he even knew Mandon Moore as he was raised in Riverrun. Littlefinger isn't behind everything what happened in the series. Until he became master of coin he had pretty much no influence.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hmm, I thought it was Cersei, retaliation for sending Myrcella to Dorne, or was that in the show?  Or did I somehow totally make that up in my mind?

Anyway, I'm not to fond of how dangerous LF, and Varys, are.  If it wasn't Cersei then it does seem to me like something Joff would do, thinking himself very clever.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

What's there to reveal? We've already been given two and two, Martin doesn't need to explicitly spell out they add up to four.

Last time the topic was visited, Tyrion suspected his sister. Since then, we got no additional hints pointing at Joffrey's direction. So it's not "two plus two", rather "two, some variable, and some unknown arithmetical operation".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is no good reason to assume Joffrey was behind Mandon Moore. Joff is still afraid of Tyrion in ASoS, evident when he lets it slip that he was behind Bran's assassination. Joff is also no smart guy. One would assume he would have inquired what the hell happened to Ser Mandon and Tyrion would have been able detect such investigations. Not to mention that he would have been afraid that Tyrion would find out that he was behind the Moore attempt (and thus responsible for his disfiguring scar). One should assume that would have made him even more afraid of Tyrion, possibly resulting in strange behavior around him or even another assassination attempt.

Instead Joff behaves completely normally. He is the usually jerk towards his uncle but giving no hint he has tried to kill him or is even playing with the idea (although it is reasonably likely that Joff would have dealt quite harshly with his uncle when he was ruling in his own right).

Cersei is off of the suspect list, too. She would have remembered the Moore attempt in her chapters in AFfC and ADwD that depicted her obsession with Tyrion.

There is a small chance that Moore might have acted on his own, considering Tyrion's behavior towards Joffrey as treason or disrespectful conduct towards the king. If that's the case we'll never learn the truth, though.

Littlefinger is the best candidate to be behind this attempt. There is the Vale connection, the possible humble origin of Moore, as well as the political situation in ACoK. Tyrion knows about the dagger. Tyrion also revealed that he knows about Littlefinger's machinations and does not trust him. If he ends up convincing Tywin of all this then Littlefinger's career might end rather quickly and irrevocably.

Littlefinger even tells Tyrion to his face that they are mortal enemies now when he demands of him that he leave out of his schemes in the future. Littlefinger is never that open and blunt with better. For him that's pretty much on the level of a death threat.

The idea is that Littlefinger would have instructed Moore before he left KL to take out Tyrion should the opportunity ever present itself. Say, during a battle, a hunting trip, or some other opportunity where a 'mortal accident' is easily arranged.

4 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

You think that Joffrey really thought that Tyrion was protecting him?

Joff gives no impression in ACoK during the battle that he mistrusts his uncle or expects him to die soon in the battle. Not to mention that Joff most likely would never have given Moore the command to kill Tyrion in secret. He would have told him to just kill him - and if Moore was acting on the orders of the king there would also have been no reason for him to do it in secret, either.

4 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Joffrey doesn't have knowledge what we readers have. He was oblivious that what Tyrion was doing was for his own good. And by that logic, Littlefinger ordering murder of Tyrion is even dumber, considering that he schemed to make Margaery queen to gain Harrenhal. If by killing Tyrion he turned battle in Stannis' favour, he would gain absolutely nothing. 

He would have remove one of his main enemies from the board while nobody would connect the murder to him. After all, he wasn't in the city, just as he would later not be in the city when Joffrey was murdered. Even more so, the idea is that Moore was given the task to kill Tyrion should the opportunity present itself. Nobody said Moore had to kill Tyrion no matter or in a situation where Tyrion's death would have weakened the Lannister cause. In fact, when Moore decides to kill Tyrion his usefulness as a figurehead/leader in the battle is clearly over.

4 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

You think that 16 years old Petyr was already a genius mastermind? Jon Arryn gave no shit about Lysa being unhappy. He needed wife only to give him heir. And he didn't needed to like Moore to notice that he is very skilled fighter.

We don't know when exactly Moore came to the city nor do we know when exactly he became a member of the Kingsguard. He could have been a replacement for a KG who died during the Greyjoy Rebellion (as Arys Oakheart, who joined the White Swords in 290 AC, apparently was). Nor have we any idea where the Moore family is situated in the Vale. They could very well live on the Fingers.

4 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Yes it is unrealistic that Littlefinger asked Lysa to convince her husband to give a white cloak to Mandon. Petyr was at the Fingers at the time, still sulking after losing Catelyn. He had no influence over Jon Arryn at the time. I doubt that he even knew Mandon Moore as he was raised in Riverrun. Littlefinger isn't behind everything what happened in the series. Until he became master of coin he had pretty much no influence.

Again, we don't know when exactly Moore became a member of the Kingsguard. Littlefinger also could have secured Moore's loyalty to him later on - say, by helping out his family in the Vale or something of that sort.

The idea that him being from the Vale is just a huge coincidence isn't very likely.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We don't know when exactly Moore came to the city nor do we know when exactly he became a member of the Kingsguard. He could have been a replacement for a KG who died during the Greyjoy Rebellion (as Arys Oakheart, who joined the White Swords in 290 AC, apparently was). Nor have we any idea where the Moore family is situated in the Vale. They could very well live on the Fingers.

There is not even single proof for that. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Again, we don't know when exactly Moore became a member of the Kingsguard. Littlefinger also could have secured Moore's loyalty to him later on - say, by helping out his family in the Vale or something of that sort.

The idea that him being from the Vale is just a huge coincidence isn't very likely.

Again, there is not even single proof that Mandon Moore became white cloak after 290 AC. Jon Arryn spent most of the time in King's Landing after he became hand of the king, so in my opinion jon probably brought Mandon to King's Landing shortly after war.

I am not sure if Moore is even capable of gratitude. He always acted emotionless. He showed no emotion after he heard about death of Vardis Egen whom he knew.

Please, Vale is size of country. Does that mean that Littlefinger know everyone in the Vale?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...