Babylon 5

[Jon AS]

2 hours ago, Corvinus said:

How come the Earth Alliance has been so willing and able to construct 5 massive space stations in the span of 10 years. They must have wanted this project to succeed real bad no matter the cost.

Ten years ago, humanity faced extinction. The Minbari weren't messing around, they were out to wipe out every human they could find, completely ignoring all offers of surrender. The Babylon project was not just an idealistic pipedream, it was considered vital to ensure the survival of the species.

And after four attempts costs were definitely becoming an issue, which is why B5 was significantly smaller than B4 and Earthgov accepted backing from the Minbari at the cost of giving them veto rights when it came to naming the station commander.

[SerHaHa]

Deathwalker was great, I loved Londo's line "Well, all's well that ends well" - such great delivery and timing, and was perfect in every other way so far as the character goes.  I wish the series had shown us more about the war with the Dilgar, perfect opportunity for some flash back episodes or scenes that never ended up happening.  I've always hoped that a reboot would focus on that war and time period, or at least, again, have some flash back eps/scenes.

[Werthead]

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Babylon Squared was also solid, and like Signs and Portents it gave more glimpses towards the dark future ahead. The episode has made me pose a question though - How come the Earth Alliance has been so willing and able to construct 5 massive space stations in the span of 10 years. They must have wanted this project to succeed real bad no matter the cost. Which makes the political situation on Earth a bit ironic, that just when it looked like they were finally getting it right, elements in Earth gov decided to go all Trump. 

 

To be honest, it's a bit that was never really convincing. If you look at the dates, B5 was built from scratch in less than 18 months after the disappearance of B4. Completely impossible. I think the problem was more that Straczynski liked "5" as the number and then bent the story to make it work, even thought it doesn't. You have to kind of roll with it.

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I've started season 2, but have not finished the first episode yet. Now I knew about the major character/actor change, but I have to ask why? Was it part of the story, or the actor playing Sinclair left for other reasons?

 

Straczynski has confirmed that O'Hare left due to his mental health problems. Apparently the severity of those problems was quite high at various points during the filming of Season 1, to the point where Jerry Doyle pointblank refused to act with him ever again (which is why they only appear in different locations and on different viewscreens in War Without End and Coming of Shadows).

From the look of it - convention appearances, O'Hare's later return appearances and the articles he wrote for various magazines - O'Hare's health did improve, at least for a while, once he was free of the stress and the rigourous filming schedule for the first season, but not to the point where he could handle this kind of schedule again. Boxleitner, of course, could eat up that schedule for breakfast, which he did with gusto.

[SpaceChampion]

I don't think the first 3 Babylon stations were anywhere near complete.  They were destroyed (by whoever) in the early construction stages.

[Corvinus85]

35 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

I don't think the first 3 Babylon stations were anywhere near complete.  They were destroyed (by whoever) in the early construction stages.

In The Grail episode, we meet a guy nicknamed Jinxo, who worked on all the stations, and he believed that he was cursed, and needed to stay on the station. The way he said it, I understood that each was completed when disaster struck. The first 2 stations were maybe not ready for habitation, but I think their main structure had been done.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Corvinus

[Denvek]

The superstructure had been completed on the first 3 (and each was salvaged for use in building the next one), but I don't think any of them were anywhere near habitable when they were destroyed.

Spoiler

The fact that the Minbari didn't recognise the station until it got to Babylon 4 suggests that none of the first 3 got as far as having the outer hull on.

 

Edited July 19, 2017 by Denvek
Added spoiler

[Werthead]

You see how complete Babylon 1 was: the docking sphere was complete but the rest of the station was basically scaffolding and not much else. They recaptured the docking sphere for B2, built a bit more of the station and the structure collapsed. They salvaged what they could for B3 and so on until B4 was built and completed. That all happened between 2249 and 2254. B4 then vanished in mid-to-late 2254. Babylon 5 went online in February 2256 or thereabouts.

That's way too little time, IMO. Babylon 4 was colossal and should have taken a lot longer to build, and even B5 was a huge undertaking for all it was smaller than B4.

Babylon 5 Rewatch: Season 1, Episodes 13-14

Signs and Portents, one of the very best episodes of the first season, and TKO, which...isn't.

[SpaceChampion]

Maybe they subcontracted some Minbari worker caste to speed it up, giving them access to Minbari artificial gravity generators during construction.

[Lord Varys]

On 18.7.2017 at 9:24 PM, Corvinus said:

Finished season 1, and started season 2.

I thought the last few episodes of season 1 were all really solid, and I particularly enjoyed A Voice in the Wilderness double-episode arc.

Babylon Squared was also solid, and like Signs and Portents it gave more glimpses towards the dark future ahead. The episode has made me pose a question though - How come the Earth Alliance has been so willing and able to construct 5 massive space stations in the span of 10 years. They must have wanted this project to succeed real bad no matter the cost. Which makes the political situation on Earth a bit ironic, that just when it looked like they were finally getting it right, elements in Earth gov decided to go all Trump.

There are strong parallels to Germany between World War I and II there. We have the Earth-Minbari War as the Great War, and now things are moving towards Hitler, basically. There is a very strong revanchist movement within the Earth Alliance, but it seems that the politics immediately after the end of the war were made by people who really tried to ensure that something like that never happens again. But there were always those forces who didn't want the whole thing to succeed.

On 18.7.2017 at 9:24 PM, Corvinus said:

I also greatly enjoyed the finale, very fast paced, with way more stuff happening in one single episode than anything prior. But I guess the plan, all along, was to end it in several cliffhangers.

Something interesting to know is that the traitor at the end of season 1 originally was supposed to Ivanovas predecessor, Laurel Takashima, from the pilot.

On 18.7.2017 at 9:24 PM, Corvinus said:

Btw, up until the finale, I didn't even notice that G'Kar was not even present for several episodes. Right now I think Londo is a much better presence, both for comical reasons, and for the more serious philosophical dilemmas.

G'Kar will come back big time in season 2.

On 18.7.2017 at 9:24 PM, Corvinus said:

I've started season 2, but have not finished the first episode yet. Now I knew about the major character/actor change, but I have to ask why? Was it part of the story, or the actor playing Sinclair left for other reasons?

Others have beaten me to that and it is quite obvious that there was no plan there to replace O'Hare with a new actor. This is especially obvious in 'Babylon Squared'. It is quite clear that Babylon 4 is going to be drawn into the future to help Sinclair and Delenn in some sort of grand war. But that's not how this plot is going to be concluded in later episodes continuing that plot.

But most of Sinclair's arc goes now directly to Sheridan with only minor changes. What's dropped is the 'the souls of Minbari become humans' plot (it is changed to accommodate the new Sinclair story).

[Lord Varys]

On 19.7.2017 at 1:52 AM, SerHaHa said:

Deathwalker was great, I loved Londo's line "Well, all's well that ends well" - such great delivery and timing, and was perfect in every other way so far as the character goes.  I wish the series had shown us more about the war with the Dilgar, perfect opportunity for some flash back episodes or scenes that never ended up happening.  I've always hoped that a reboot would focus on that war and time period, or at least, again, have some flash back eps/scenes.

Yeah, that's a very good episode. I think I like pretty much all about that.

On 19.7.2017 at 9:10 PM, Werthead said:

Straczynski has confirmed that O'Hare left due to his mental health problems. Apparently the severity of those problems was quite high at various points during the filming of Season 1, to the point where Jerry Doyle pointblank refused to act with him ever again (which is why they only appear in different locations and on different viewscreens in War Without End and Coming of Shadows).

Oh, things must have been really bad then. Have we any idea why JMS handled the write-out thing so badly? They could have killed Sinclair at the end of season 1, or prepared him leaving at the end of the episode as part of the cliffhanger.

On 19.7.2017 at 9:10 PM, Werthead said:

From the look of it - convention appearances, O'Hare's later return appearances and the articles he wrote for various magazines - O'Hare's health did improve, at least for a while, once he was free of the stress and the rigourous filming schedule for the first season, but not to the point where he could handle this kind of schedule again. Boxleitner, of course, could eat up that schedule for breakfast, which he did with gusto.

What is apparently known is that he approved for time once they figured out the correct medication for him, but he eventually had another breakdown later in life. If I remember correctly, he spent some time in a halfway house later in life. That whole story is really a pity, and it is very sad that they have to keep these things secret to not endanger somebody's career.

[Corvinus85]

Very sad about O'Hare, and about all the other actors who have passed away since.

[Werthead]

 

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Oh, things must have been really bad then. Have we any idea why JMS handled the write-out thing so badly? They could have killed Sinclair at the end of season 1, or prepared him leaving at the end of the episode as part of the cliffhanger.

 

 

I'll get into it more in Legacies, but D.C. Fontana apparently dropped an idea into the script (that ended up with the "You talk like a Minbari" line) that blew Straczynski's mind, and made him completely redirect the entire 10-year arc of both Babylon 5 and its originally-planned spin-off show, Babylon Prime. Weirdly, that change of plan made it much easier to write out Sinclair than it would have been if he'd ended Season 1 with the original plan firmly in place. But still, the Babylon 5 version 1.5 story arc would have moved War Without End to the end of Season 5 instead but otherwise would have had Sinclair as the hero throughout.

Both plans prevented him from killing off Sinclair. It wasn't a goer.

[Lord Varys]

@Werthead:

What's that about Babylon Prime? I must say, you really a well of unnecessary yet very welcome and intriguing knowledge.

What makes the whole thing look as if it was some decision made between seasons is that there is a built really a lot tension for Sinclair's personal future, etc. and then we get some sort of explanation worthy of Baywatch, with the main character moving to another town, etc. without all that good reason. It is amended later on, of course, but it could have been much better if Sinclair receiving the order to go to Minbar would have been part of the cliffhanger.

By the way, has anybody ever asked JMS whether he wants to publish his notes and scripts during the writing process of this thing? This could be a very interesting read and I'm pretty sure there would be a small market for this.

[felice]

50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

By the way, has anybody ever asked JMS whether he wants to publish his notes and scripts during the writing process of this thing? This could be a very interesting read and I'm pretty sure there would be a small market for this.

It's been done, but the price is pretty ridiculous.

[Corvinus85]

So in season 2 episode 4, there was a moment that made me LOL, but also roll my eyes at the same time, when the Techno Mage quotes Lord of the Rings to Vir. Is JMS a big Tolkien fan?

[Derfel Cadarn]

6 hours ago, Corvinus said:

So in season 2 episode 4, there was a moment that made me LOL, but also roll my eyes at the same time, when the Techno Mage quotes Lord of the Rings to Vir. Is JMS a big Tolkien fan?

Rangers? 

Zahadum sounding like khazadum?

elder races?

lorien?!?

Going 'beyond the rim'/sailing west?

yeah a lot of nods to LOTR.

[Lord Varys]

10 hours ago, felice said:

It's been done, but the price is pretty ridiculous.

The link somehow only takes me to a lot of other things by JMS on amazon. Do you happen to know how this publication is named?

10 hours ago, Corvinus said:

So in season 2 episode 4, there was a moment that made me LOL, but also roll my eyes at the same time, when the Techno Mage quotes Lord of the Rings to Vir. Is JMS a big Tolkien fan?

Obviously yes. The parallels become even more obvious farther down the line. 

I first watched the show in the dubbed German version and the people translating it had no idea what they were doing, giving things different names and such but the direct quote from LotR is translated so wrong that anybody knowing Tolkien has a very great 'What the fuck?!' moment.

[Jon AS]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The link somehow only takes me to a lot of other things by JMS on amazon. Do you happen to know how this publication is named?

That's because it's one of those Amazon affiliates links. This one should work.

If not search for "Babylon 5: The 22 Volume Collector's Set - Scripts of J. Michael Straczynski."

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I first watched the show in the dubbed German version and the people translating it had no idea what they were doing, giving things different names and such but the direct quote from LotR is translated so wrong that anybody knowing Tolkien has a very great 'What the fuck?!' moment.

Finding these translation errors could be fun.

Like how the translators for The Simpsons clearly had no idea what "Dungeons and Dragons" was.

[Lord Varys]

Ah, well, I'm known to spent ridiculous amounts of money for things I don't really need but 1,278,- $ for 22 paperbacks is stretching things somewhat.

Has anybody ever handled those books? The bare scripts wouldn't be very interesting to me, the interesting part would be the various versions and outlines. Sure, the scripts should also include cut scenes but the interesting things here is to check how much of the original plan is in the final show, and how much things changed on the way.

[williamjm]

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Ah, well, I'm known to spent ridiculous amounts of money for things I don't really need but 1,278,- $ for 22 paperbacks is stretching things somewhat.

Has anybody ever handled those books? The bare scripts wouldn't be very interesting to me, the interesting part would be the various versions and outlines. Sure, the scripts should also include cut scenes but the interesting things here is to check how much of the original plan is in the final show, and how much things changed on the way.

It seems a pity that there isn't an e-book edition (which could hopefully be at a more reasonable price).