U.S. Politics: 2016 Election Goes To Overtime

[Jace, Extat]

1 hour ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Some people have argued that.  I clearly wasn't commenting to them....

There are actually a diverse array of posters here.  There are some neo-nazis, 'gender preservationists', rape apologists, progressives, stupid people who think they are smart, smart people who act like they are stupid, funny people, perhaps a sullen one or two.  Not sure why you think everyone is saying the same tnhing.

You forgot me.  I think I proudly represent the self aware stupids!

[Boris the Blade]

40 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

I think we can though because this is false:

If you look at history, fighting oppression or bigots "head on" achieves little in itself. Information and education are required to convince a significant proportion of people that change is necessary. Once this is done, sometimes, a little force (i.e. political or legal action) is necessary, but such force only breeds resentment and revolt if the first stage has not been properly completed.

I understand the frustration. But paradoxically, in the face of any major opposition, one must begin by being patient and learn to communicate. After all, in the grand scheme of things, the only alternative is armed conflict, and one is never certain of prevailing in one of those. In fact, the greater the opposition and the greater patience is required.
Sometimes, one must even be ready to accept the fact that progress on a specific issue will not come about in one's lifetime.
I know it's not easy... Believe me I know. But the loftier your goals and the more you have to avoid being insulting. Progress isn't something you can impose on people ; progress is something people have to be convinced of.

No, you really can't, There is no reason to respect bigots. None, zero, zilch, nada. 

Oh really? What the hell do you think MLK was doing? Malcom X? How about Harvey Milk or the Stonewall Riots? 

Your way of doing things has hinder fucking progress man. I'm so tired of this coddle your fucking oppressors bullshit and worrying about not insulting them. People wanting equal rights is insulting to them man, wake the fuck up. Stop worrying about upsetting their little feel feels. Fuck em. Seriously, at what point are you going to realize no matter what you do you're going to insult them? 

Nah, you take progress, you make it. You don't wait for it to be handed to you by convincing people.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

24 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

While it's true that not all Trump voters were poor, it is also true that Trump did much better than Republicans normally do among voters making less than $30,000.

He does love the poorly educated. Just ask him.

 

[Altherion]

18 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

He does love the poorly educated. Just ask him.

He actually predicted this way back in his 1990 interview (with Playboy, of all outlets):

Quote

Well, if I ever ran for office, I'd do better as a Democrat than as a Republican—and that's not because I'd be more liberal, because I'm conservative. But the working guy would elect me. He likes me. When I walk down the street, those cabbies start yelling out their windows.

It must have sounded like an empty, absurd boast at the time... but he was right! By the time he got changed his mind and got serious about running for President, the Democrats had nearly finished alienating the working class so he ran as a Republican -- and the working class did indeed elect him.

[Rippounet]

12 minutes ago, Boris the Blade said:

Oh really? What the hell do you think MLK was doing? Malcom X? How about Harvey Milk or the Stonewall Riots?

Communication, mostly, with some information and education on the side. The Stonewall Riots mattered because of the organizations and newspapers that were founded in their wake.

12 minutes ago, Boris the Blade said:

I'm so tired of this coddle your fucking oppressors bullshit and worrying about not insulting them.

There's a huge middle-ground between coddling and insulting. Engaging in frank and honest discussion isn't coddling. Trying to inform isn't coddling. Articulating your views without profanities isn't coddling.
Neither MLK nor Milk based their communication on insults, nor did they even belittle the other side. Even Malcolm X, despite not actually advocating progress, expressed his ideas using far more than insults and swear-words.
Since you missed my point the first time, I'll spell it out clearly. Courage is knowing how difficult it is to get through to the other side, and try it nonetheless. Courage is standing in front of an audience to articulate your views and be ready to answer questions. Courage is writing for everyone (not just your own side) to inform and educate. Courage is not giving in to the temptation of acting like a preschooler with a bad toothache.
Courage is not sitting in front of your computer, insulting people who aren't even reading your prose, and using the word "fuck" in every sentence.
If you're angry enough to want to make a difference, good. Perhaps you should get in touch with the local Democratic Party branch and see what you can do on the ground. Or perhaps the NAACP would be interested in using some of your time. If you're already doing some of these things, perhaps you can explain to us why they are so difficult.

[Boris the Blade]

2 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Communication, mostly, with some information and education on the side. The Stonewall Riots mattered because of the organizations and newspapers that were founded in their wake.

There's a huge middle-ground between coddling and insulting. Engaging in frank and honest discussion isn't coddling. Trying to inform isn't coddling. Articulating your views without profanities isn't coddling.
Neither MLK nor Milk based their communication on insults, nor did they even belittle the other side. Even Malcolm X, despite not actually advocating progress, expressed his ideas using far more than insults and swear-words.
Since you missed my point the first time, I'll spell it out clearly. Courage is knowing how difficult it is to get through to the other side, and try it nonetheless. Courage is standing in front of an audience to articulate your views and be ready to answer questions. Courage is writing for everyone (not just your own side) to inform and educate. Courage is not giving in to the temptation of acting like a preschooler with a bad toothache.
Courage is not sitting in front of your computer, insulting people who aren't even reading your prose, and using the word "fuck" in every sentence.
If you're angry enough to want to make a difference, good. Perhaps you should get in touch with the local Democratic Party branch and see what you can do on the ground. Or perhaps the NAACP would be interested in using some of your time. If you're already doing some of these things, perhaps you can explain to us why they are so difficult.

Man I can't take this privileged tone policing bs anymore. I'll spell this out for you clearly, or as clear as I can since it hasn't gotten through to you the first time it was spelled out. When someone is standing on your foot and crushing it and you yell at them to get off your foot. If they step on it harder because it hurt their feelings that you yelled at them, you shove them off of your foot. I know your revisionist view of history is oh these people were acting "civil" when in fact their protests were met with violence and death threats and murders and were not deemed to be civil and were deemed as disruptive to society and the status quo. 

You also ignore the fact that privileged people set the standard for what is "nice." Anyone that fundamentally challenges that worldview of theirs in a way that they won't be able ignore will never meet that privileged standard of nice, no matter how “nice” they dressed up. 

 

[The Fallen]

6 hours ago, Sullen said:

They voted Obama in twice, they supported Sanders, they were Democrat states for decades.

They could be won over again, the Democrats just need to fix their act.

I don't think those are the same voters. If I've read correctly, Hillary got less votes than Obama. But were the total votes the same as in 2012? If so, then Hillary getting less means that those who had voted for Obama switched to Trump.

But if the total votes were less than in 2012, which is what I've read, then voters didn't switch from Obama to Trump. She merely failed to get those voters to the polls, which is what I think happened. So I don't think those are the same voters.

Honestly, the Democrats will never get the type of voters who voted for Trump. 

As far as Symone Sanders statement, she probably could've stated it better, but what's wrong with saying that a party who gets a lot, if not most, of its support from people of color should have some of those same people in top positions? (Assuming the qualifications are met.)

[Guest]

Boris the Blade - Why do you object to the suggestion that the DNC needs some work?  The Dems didn't just lose the White House.  They've been getting creamed at the state level too. 

Ormond - Just to be clear I'm not suggesting that the Dems shouldn't try to make inroads with white working class voters.  I'm just saying that I think when they just lost a razor-thin race and demographics are still moving in their direction it's less of an imperative than is being suggested.

Great Unwashed - I agree that there are problems way beyond the White House level (per my comment about the DNC needing work).

[Altherion]

18 minutes ago, The Fallen said:

As far as Symone Sanders statement, she probably could've stated it better, but what's wrong with saying that a party who gets a lot, if not most, of its support from people of color should have some of those same people in top positions? (Assuming the qualifications are met.)

Your statement is reasonable, but that is not what she said. Her exact words were "we don't need white people leading the Democratic party right now." That is not the same thing as having some people of color in top positions -- the latter is indisputably already the case so if that's all you want, you already have it. Her statement goes a lot further.

[Boris the Blade]

8 minutes ago, Triskan said:

Boris the Blade - Why do you object to the suggestion that the DNC needs some work?  The Dems didn't just lose the White House.  They've been getting creamed at the state level too. 

Ormond - Just to be clear I'm not suggesting that the Dems shouldn't try to make inroads with white working class voters.  I'm just saying that I think when they just lost a razor-thin race and demographics are still moving in their direction it's less of an imperative than is being suggested.

Great Unwashed - I agree that there are problems way beyond the White House level (per my comment about the DNC needing work).

I don't disagree that the DNC needs some work at all. I disagree with calling Clinton a bad / flawed candidate when she lost to someone that is clearly a flawed and horrible candidate and when she was seriously qualified and more qualified than most of the past presidents before they went into office. 

Getting creamed at the state level also has to do with some serious gerrymandering. 

 

[The Fallen]

1 hour ago, Altherion said:

Your statement is reasonable, but that is not what she said. Her exact words were "we don't need white people leading the Democratic party right now." That is not the same thing as having some people of color in top positions -- the latter is indisputably already the case so if that's all you want, you already have it. Her statement goes a lot further.

Fair enough. 

I think the reason Obama beat Hillary in the '08 primary is the reason she lost this year. The DNC should have paid attention. Obama won the young vote. Hillary couldn't get those voters then and it looks like that hurt her in this election. 

She was clearly the better candidate this time, but she couldn't overcome Republican propaganda. 

[Commodore]

Ben Carson is impressed with Stein's ability to scam people out of money

[IamMe90]

14 minutes ago, Commodore said:

Ben Carson is impressed with Stein's ability to scam people out of money

Seems a bit of the pot calling the kettle black, given that his whole bid was probably to help sell books or some shit. 

[all swedes are racist]

9 minutes ago, IamMe90 said:

Seems a bit of the pot calling the kettle black, given that his whole bid was probably to help sell books or some shit. 

I think that was the joke

[all swedes are racist]

Election goes into overtime; injunction means it won't have to be paid time and a half though 

happy holidays from Judge Amos "Scrooge" Mazzant, the fucking asshole

[IamMe90]

59 minutes ago, R'hllor's nasty lobster said:

I think that was the joke

I honestly couldn't tell with Commodore since he seems to admire some pretty terrible people, like Ted Cruz

[Castel]

3 hours ago, The Fallen said:

Fair enough. 

I think the reason Obama beat Hillary in the '08 primary is the reason she lost this year. The DNC should have paid attention. Obama won the young vote. Hillary couldn't get those voters then and it looks like that hurt her in this election. 

She was clearly the better candidate this time, but she couldn't overcome Republican propaganda. 

Not just Republican propaganda. Sanders campaign was about undercutting any appeal she'd have to the group of people he galvanized as his voters because, let's face it, purity is what he had going for him.

Who really sells the "there's no difference or change" thing better than a liberal, when you think about it? 

[TrackerNeil]

4 hours ago, Castel said:

Not just Republican propaganda. Sanders campaign was about undercutting any appeal she'd have to the group of people he galvanized as his voters because, let's face it, purity is what he had going for him.

Who really sells the "there's no difference or change" thing better than a liberal, when you think about it? 

Totally, and it was what put me off the Sanders campaign from the start. The idea that change can't be incremental is just silly, and it becomes idiotic when you consider that no matter which Democrat had run in 2016 the House was going to stay Republican. Did anyone really think Bernie was going to be able to enact single-payer health care with Paul Ryan in charge?

[Tempra]

7 hours ago, R'hllor's nasty lobster said:

Election goes into overtime; injunction means it won't have to be paid time and a half though 

happy holidays from Judge Amos "Scrooge" Mazzant, the fucking asshole

A recent Obama appointee, too! Thanks, Obama.

[Martell Spy]

Trump’s team of rivals: Fighting spills into public
Romney vs. Rudy spat for secretary of state reveals a deeper divide in Trump transition.

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/trumps-team-of-rivals-fighting-spills-into-public-231841