U.S. Politics: 2016 Election Goes To Overtime

[lokisnow]

10 hours ago, The Fallen said:

Fair enough. 

I think the reason Obama beat Hillary in the '08 primary is the reason she lost this year. The DNC should have paid attention. Obama won the young vote. Hillary couldn't get those voters then and it looks like that hurt her in this election. 

She was clearly the better candidate this time, but she couldn't overcome Republican propaganda. 

This. The punditocracy (Klein et al) spent 2015 belittling, insulting and generally mocking Joe Biden for considering a run. Their reason? "Democrats did not choose Biden in 2008. (Or 88, but that was moot as he withdrew from the race  early to protect Americans from borks reign of terror)

the punditocracy did not also disqualify Clinton for the same "failure to win" reasoning they used on Biden, and they paid the price for their unequal treatment of them.

not saying Biden would have won. But if the "they lost a primary before therefore don't run again" Ezra Klein argument is valid, it must be equally valid to all candidates it would apply to.

 

[LongRider]

She made the deadlines and the headlines, we'll see what happens...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2016/11/25/election-recount-underway-in-wisconsin-after-stein-files-petition/

Quote

An election recount will take place soon in Wisconsin, after former Green Party presidential candidate Jill Stein filed a petition Friday with the state’s Election Commission, the first of three states where she has promised to contest the election result.

The move from Stein, who raised millions since her Wednesday announcement that she would seek recounts of Donald Trump’s apparent election victories in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and Michigan, came just 90 minutes before Wisconsin’s 5 p.m. Friday deadline to file a petition.

 

[TrackerNeil]

2 hours ago, Tempra said:

A recent Obama appointee, too! Thanks, Obama.

Aren't you conservatives big on presidents appointing politically independent judges? Well, there you go.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Democrats will probably never win the white working class until the next major political party realignment. But that doesn't mean they can afford to list them by More than Donald Fucking Trump lost the Latino vote.

[Commodore]

10 hours ago, R'hllor's nasty lobster said:

Election goes into overtime; injunction means it won't have to be paid time and a half though 

happy holidays from Judge Amos "Scrooge" Mazzant, the fucking asshole

you mean a major policy change can't be enacted without congressional authorization? outrageous!

[all swedes are racist]

17 minutes ago, Commodore said:

you mean a major policy change can't be enacted without congressional authorization? outrageous!

You're right, fuck those guys too

[Commodore]

it's arrogant to think the laws of economics can be ignored and more pay can just be mandated (rather than earned/negotiated) without consequence

[Jace, Extat]

12 minutes ago, Commodore said:

it's arrogant to think the laws of economics can be ignored and more pay can just be mandated (rather than earned/negotiated) without consequence

Well thank god your boys have systematically destroyed unions over the last 35 years right?

[Weeping Sore]

The Clinton campaign will reportedly "participate" in the WI, PA & MI recounts.

So if it turns out Trump's winning margin in those states was the result of hacking, what to do with all the valuable bloviating on the post-mortem of Clinton? What to do with an autopsy of the resuscitated?

I know, it's been hard moving through the stages of grief and learning to love the Trumpocalypse. But I'm going back to denial till the recounts prove me wrong.

 

[Dr. Pepper]

I'm not even sure I've moved past denial yet seeing as Clinton has won the popular vote by such a margin.  I doubt the recount will change things, but it's nice to imagine a world that won't be total and utter shit for the next 4-8 years.  

[Rippounet]

13 hours ago, Boris the Blade said:

I know your revisionist view of history is oh these people were acting "civil" when in fact their protests were met with violence and death threats and murders and were not deemed to be civil and were deemed as disruptive to society and the status quo.

You're right to point out that the civil rights movement wasn't a walk in the park. But it would be very wrong to say that the movement was based on insulting the other side. MLK is remembered to this day precisely because he stressed the importance of having a non-violent movement ; kids learn about him in high school throughout the world.

Anyway, what's your plan? Beyond antagonizing the people who would actually tend to be on your side of the debate? Right now to me you look like one of these guys who's great at being provocative on the internet but don't actually do anything. You started calling people here cowards, but so far you've failed to explain why your attitude is courageous. Basically, do you have something to say or propose, or are you just an internet troll?

[sToNED_CAT]

14 hours ago, The Fallen said:

I don't think those are the same voters. If I've read correctly, Hillary got less votes than Obama. But were the total votes the same as in 2012? If so, then Hillary getting less means that those who had voted for Obama switched to Trump.

But if the total votes were less than in 2012, which is what I've read, then voters didn't switch from Obama to Trump. She merely failed to get those voters to the polls, which is what I think happened. So I don't think those are the same voters.

The problem is that you believe that only Hillary's turnout was depressed. It is very likely many moderate and even conservative republicans stayed at home too.

[mormont]

1 hour ago, Commodore said:

it's arrogant to think the laws of economics can be ignored and more pay can just be mandated (rather than earned/negotiated) without consequence

It might be, but the experience of introducing minimum wage laws in numerous countries shows that the consequences of mandating more pay are routinely exaggerated by opponents.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

42 minutes ago, Weeping Sore said:

The Clinton campaign will reportedly "participate" in the WI, PA & MI recounts.

So if it turns out Trump's winning margin in those states was the result of hacking, what to do with all the valuable bloviating on the post-mortem of Clinton? What to do with an autopsy of the resuscitated?

I know, it's been hard moving through the stages of grief and learning to love the Trumpocalypse. But I'm going back to denial till the recounts prove me wrong.

 

It would still depend on the amount of voter fraud. If there had been a small amount of tampering, that pushed orange Mussolini over the finish line, then Clinton and her campaign would still have quite a bit of answering to do imo. 

The best case scenario would still mean, Clinton walks away with a narrow victory after the recount against an openly racist, sexist and as the media has often stated uniquely unqualified candidate. To keep this post short, I will not list the entire list of Trump's shortcomings as a human being, and political candidate. And I wouldn't get my hopes up.

The only outcome that would redeem her (imo) would be a massive amount of voter fraud.

[Martell Spy]

What Bernie Sanders Meant to Say About Identity Politics
He didn't really suggest that Democrats forget about race and gender. Or did he?

https://newrepublic.com/article/138921/bernie-sanders-meant-say-identity-politics

[Martell Spy]

Quote

It might be, but the experience of introducing minimum wage laws in numerous countries shows that the consequences of mandating more pay are routinely exaggerated by opponents.

Yep. Even liberal economists such as Paul Krugman used to believe that raising the minimum wage causes job losses. He, and others are starting to change their minds as the data comes in on the various raises. It's not that the raises never cause job losses, but that we just don't know what level is too high for what state or region yet. What is clear however, is that conservatives have been highly successful at keeping wages lower than they need to be for the working poor for decades.

[Altherion]

42 minutes ago, Weeping Sore said:

So if it turns out Trump's winning margin in those states was the result of hacking, what to do with all the valuable bloviating on the post-mortem of Clinton? What to do with an autopsy of the resuscitated?

You are going to have much bigger problems than that. If all three states do indeed flip as a result of the recount, it would call all of the rest into question: if you checked 3 out of 50 and all of them were bad, what are the odds that the rest are fine? This is why the Obama administration is defending the results despite their preference for Clinton over Trump:

Quote

The Obama administration said on Friday that despite Russian attempts to undermine the presidential election, it has concluded that the results “accurately reflect the will of the American people.”

Also, the same article says:

Quote

In Pennsylvania, where paper ballots are used only in some areas, election officials said that the deadline to petition for a recount had passed, but that a candidate could challenge the result in court before a Monday deadline.

There is no evidence of fraud so I'm not sure what the court would do in this case.

[LongRider]

The minimum wage act in California incrementally increases the minimum wage $1 a year from 2016 to 2021 and the final raise taking effect in 2022.  So it's nice I guess, that the wage is being raised, but all the crowing in Cali about the $15 minimum wage is a bit overrated because it take six years to come to full affects. 

If the wage went from $10 one day to $15 the next then yes, it could certainly be a hardship for businesses, but that's not what happened.  So I find the screaming about how the raising the minimum wage is the end of the world, and self satisfied crowing about the raising of it both to be overrated since it will take six years before anyone is making $15 an hour, minimum, in California.  Who knows, by then that too could be poverty wages.    

[Martell Spy]

 

Quote

 

The minimum wage act in California incrementally increases the minimum wage $1 a year from 2016 to 2021 and the final raise taking effect in 2022.  So it's nice I guess, that the wage is being raised, but all the crowing in Cali about the $15 minimum wage is a bit overrated because it take six years to come to full affects. 

If the wage went from $10 one day to $15 the next then yes, it could certainly be a hardship for businesses, but that's not what happened.  So I find the screaming about how the raising the minimum wage is the end of the world, and self satisfied crowing about the raising of it both to be overrated since it will take six years before anyone is making $15 an hour, minimum, in California.  Who knows, by then that too could be poverty wages.  

 

 

 

Well, the raises are faster than average inflation. And at least in Washington state, it's required to rise with cost-of-living adjustments every year. (It's raising to 11$ on Jan 1, 2017, 11.50 in 2018, 12 in 2019, and 13.50 in 2020.)

But yeah, the other states should do yearly cost-of-living adjustments like Washington, if they don't already do that. Ours had the cost-of-living adjustments made yearly even before this latest raise passed.

[Mexal]

The NY Times just posted a 6 byline article about Trump conflicts of interest around the world. They sent these reporters to those countries to investigate. It's long and worth a read.

I just wish this level of reporting was done prior to the election instead of the thousands of stories on Clinton's emails. I know it wouldn't have mattered but it should have been done. Only real story I remember trying to figure this out was the Newsweek story by Eichenwald.