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What's it good for? - Sansa Stark


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Sansa Stark is being trained by Littlefinger in political schemings.

She faces many dangers:

  • LF knows that Sansa is aware of his implication in Jon Arryn's and Joffrey Baratheon's murder => LF cannot allow to make Sansa an enemy or let her out of his control
  • Sansa is not believed to be dead in Kings Landing and still looked for => even in the Vale her true identiy cannot be revealed without risking an open conflict between the Vale and Kings Landing
  • Sansa's value for LF is based on the assumption that Sansa is first in the line of succession for Winterfell, as LF:
    • thinks that all her brothers are dead
    • does not know about Robb Starks famous letter, which may have disinherited Sansa or have Jon Snow put in front of her in the succession line
    • => should LF come to know that Sansa is not heir to Winterfell he has to re-assess Sansa's value for his political schemes and that might turn out fatal for Sansa as LF might judge her value being lower than the risk she poses for him
  • in contrast to Bran, Arya and maybe even Rickon Sansa does not appear to be the character able to survive on her own or have useful friends to protect her (except Brienne of Tarth should find her)

In conclusion:

Sansa is probably in greater danger (with only the very dangerous LF providing refuge for her) than Arya or Bran.

But she is - apart from Jon (being dead at the moment) - the only Stark being trained in politics (the actual political situation in Westeros, political scheming). Though, concerning her abilities, she seems to be on a significant lower level than Bran or Arya on their respective fields.

What has to happen to make the remaining Starks being able to profit from Sansa's abilities?

Just like Bran she could use her influence from the distance, partly even without her identity revealed. Unlike Arya who I only see of advantage if she is actually present. But revealing her identity would of course increase Sansa's influence. In that case though, I see Sansa having to move from the Vale to gather truer friends around her (e.g. loyal Northmen) than those she has in the Vale.

Gathering allies to the Stark cause would be her prominent asset, I assume.

Where could she move to in the first place? White Harbour (via Gulltown) or the Neck (Howland Reed) would be the closest options.

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Sansa is learning to scheme and acquire power, that is not the way of the Starks of the series and the Starks will not profit from her abilities. Sansa is learning Lannister ways. She is not going north, she is not going to acquire power by birth right, that makes pointless her whole arc, she's going to take power by pulling it out from underneath the other players, in KL, as that's where the game is played.

Some of her assets are on the board. The commander of the KG and most natural leader of men left in the kingdom has sworn a vow to protect her. His sidekick is likewise on the case. The dog is safely tucked away digging graves, in need of a new master.

Some are on the way, the knight reborn in the Faith who'll remember her kind words in spite of him having treated her terribly, the Dornish bombshell prone to think with her emotions, her sister assassin, and most particularly her husband. There are three dragons, and they'll make their riders the three most powerful people in the realm, and Tyrion will be one of them. What will be needed is a PR strategy, a minder of sorts, a wife they'll love so much they'll give him a second chance.

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The mob loved Margaery so much they were even willing to love Joffrey again.

But allies are only half of it, the less fun half. She'll need villains too, for show, to contrast with her lovely self, to pull down so she can climb up over.

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In that case though, I see Sansa having to move from the Vale to gather truer friends around her (e.g. loyal Northmen) than those she has in the Vale.

I disagree.  She's making friends and allies as we speak.  One of those friends is the Lord of the Vale, a powerful ally even if he is currently a child.  Sansa's role, imo, is to finally bring the Vale to the Northern cause.  The Vale will be an important ally to the North when first they gain independence from KL again, and then later during the LN 2.0, during which the Vale would bring arms and food to the people.

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Just like Bran she could use her influence from the distance, partly even without her identity revealed. Unlike Arya who I only see of advantage if she is actually present.

 I see Sansa and Arya evolving into an echo of Doran and Oberyn.  Sansa's role is that of a lady or courtier, manipulating politics.  Arya's role is that of a Master of Whispers or Assassin.  Sansa is "the grass" that hides/protects the hidden weapon, her sister.  (Several users and I discussed this on the Puns and Wordplay thread: the sisters are a rose - the bud and the thorns, both essential parts of the rose itself.  Additionally, the Iron Throne is a rose!  The king represents the bud and the swords represent the thorns.  The conclusions reached in that thread (from what I recall) were that Sansa will be the rose/queen and Arya will be her "thorns"/protection, or that Sansa and Arya will both play a role in bringing/keeping Jon Snow in power.)

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Though, concerning her abilities, she seems to be on a significant lower level than Bran or Arya on their respective fields.

I don't know about that.  As chris daw points out above me, she already has the LC of the Kingsguard and Brienne seeking to help and protect her.  With the growing power of the Faith, Lancel Lannister will prove an important connection.  (Side note: Cersei and Jaime know of Tysha, and perhaps Kevan as well.  I wonder if Lancel knows?  If so, such knowledge would be useful if/when Sansa seeks to annul her marriage to Tyrion.)  

Remember Tyrion's observation of Sansa in Storm during Joffrey's wedding as she speaks with the other guests - "she's good at this."  She's already good, imo, at influencing people.  Now, she's just learning to use that gift in another way: influencing politics.  

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Sansa is also slightly mirroring (in a kid sister sorta way) a possible peace and/or reconstruction of the Vale mountain clans, who are wildlings by name and first men, back in to society as a whole as Jon is doing in the north. Many signs point to Sansa having contact with them again (most things about the mountain clans at this time are mentioned in other POV's), and Sansa being the wife(?) of the man that armed them and gave them a duty will probably help as well. This is not to say that Tyrion and Sansa will stay married, but that is a different thread and Sansa already has her "burned man" in mind.

As Jojen tells Bran, "the land is one."

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I think Littlefinger has transferred his obsession with Catelyn to Sansa and now considers her as his protege and future partner - both in politics and in love.  This will be his undoing.  Sansa is getting more savvy and will soon come to realize what a rotter Littlefinger is - and what he has done to her family and friends (Jeyne Poole is a skeleton just waiting to tumble out of the closet).  When that happens, it will be Littlefinger that is in danger.  I think that she will eventually be the cause of his downfall.  But I do not expect her to become anything like either LF or Cersei in her methods or temperament.  She will remain a Stark in that respect.   

Her ultimate story is in the North, however, so I expect her to ultimately end up in Winterfell.  I expect Cersei's rule to be shaky in the future, at best, so it may be possible for Sansa to openly reveal herself. In any case, I think it is clear that some already know or suspect.  Myranda clearly does, and I would not be surprised if Yohn Royce and Lady Waynwood have their suspicions.

I do not expect her to marry Harry - or anyone else for the time being.  In fact, i expect her to use her marriage to Tyrion as a sort of blocking move to prevent herself from being used as marriage bait.  It is clear that she has no real interest in being married again any time soon.  Any moves toward Harry will be done only at LF's orders, but I don't see it going anywhere.    

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6 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I think Littlefinger has transferred his obsession with Catelyn to Sansa and now considers her as his protege and future partner - both in politics and in love.  This will be his undoing.  Sansa is getting more savvy and will soon come to realize what a rotter Littlefinger is - and what he has done to her family and friends (Jeyne Poole is a skeleton just waiting to tumble out of the closet).  When that happens, it will be Littlefinger that is in danger.  I think that she will eventually be the cause of his downfall.  

:thumbsup:

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11 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Sansa is learning to scheme and acquire power, that is not the way of the Starks of the series and the Starks will not profit from her abilities. Sansa is learning Lannister ways. She is not going north, she is not going to acquire power by birth right, that makes pointless her whole arc, she's going to take power by pulling it out from underneath the other players, in KL, as that's where the game is played.

This idea that Northerners don't play the Game, while we have some indications that they have spent an entire book doing so, is quite contrived. Starks most certainly didn't hold the power of North for 8000 years without being political. Basically, almost every Northern character we know about was involved in some political machinations. Rickard Stark was doing God knows what, Ned was trying to play the Game in KL, not to mention other Northern houses like Boltons, Mormonts, Karstarks, Manderlys etc. Game has always been present in the North too. Just in some other form. They most certainly aren't apolitical.

4 hours ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

I think she's meant to be in control of the Vale resources (food and arms) and dictate their use.

Basically this. Having the filled granaries of Vale untouched by Wo5K will do wonders in "making them love her".

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2 minutes ago, Risto said:

This idea that Northerners don't play the Game, while we have some indications that they have spent an entire book doing so, is quite contrived.

No, not remotely. Ned's foray into the game of thrones consisted of trying to put the gold cloaks into his corner. Robb simply called his banners and made marriage alliances. And neither were self aggrandising.

On the Stark side there's no children being extinguished to ingratiate oneself with the throne, no cities being denied food, no acts of pageantry, assassinations, lies in secret letters, ideas implanted by way of song, deals in place of justice, secret catspaws, and on and on it goes. That is the game of thrones and decidedly against what Ned stood for and thus what the Starks of the series are known to stand for.

And this is what Sansa is learning.

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9 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

No, not remotely. Ned's foray into the game of thrones consisted of trying to put the gold cloaks into his corner. Robb simply called his banners and made marriage alliances. And neither were self aggrandising.

On the Stark side there's no children being extinguished to ingratiate oneself with the throne, no cities being denied food, no acts of pageantry, assassinations, lies in secret letters, ideas implanted by way of song, deals in place of justice, secret catspaws, and on and on it goes. That is the game of thrones and decidedly against what Ned stood for and thus what the Starks of the series are known to stand for.

And this is what Sansa is learning.

Ned being unsuccessful doesn't mean he didn't try to play the Game. It just means that he played and he lost.

Robb played the Game when he sent Catelyn to Renly and Theon to Iron Islands. He wasn't above making compromises and political alliances as limited as his options were at the time.

You see only one side of the Game. The political machinations are far subtler than you give them credit for. Look at what Manderly is doing. He is not playing a Game? If parts of GNC (or Northern Games, as some called the theory) is correct, we would have entire North involved in it? Didn't Karstark bring Alys so Robb would fall for her? Didn't Ned write letter to Stannis and even changed Robert's will? Didn't Robb write a will and hid it with his bannermen? We doubt Ned has been lying for years regarding Jon's inheritance. The Rat Cook song is about the importance of guest right. Northerners dehumanized wildlings for centuries and we see what happened when Jon met them.

I feel your idea of Game is Ned's shallow view on the things. Game is present everywhere where there are people with different agendas and ambitions. Even on the other side of the Wall, they played their Games. Mance had to do a lot to unite the clans.

So, no, Game is not just pageantry, tourneys and selling out people. That is just the tip of the iceberg. It is far more complicated than you give it credit for.

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52 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I think Littlefinger has transferred his obsession with Catelyn to Sansa and now considers her as his protege and future partner - both in politics and in love.  This will be his undoing.  Sansa is getting more savvy and will soon come to realize what a rotter Littlefinger is - and what he has done to her family and friends (Jeyne Poole is a skeleton just waiting to tumble out of the closet).  When that happens, it will be Littlefinger that is in danger.  I think that she will eventually be the cause of his downfall.  But I do not expect her to become anything like either LF or Cersei in her methods or temperament.  She will remain a Stark in that respect.   

Her ultimate story is in the North, however, so I expect her to ultimately end up in Winterfell.  I expect Cersei's rule to be shaky in the future, at best, so it may be possible for Sansa to openly reveal herself. In any case, I think it is clear that some already know or suspect.  Myranda clearly does, and I would not be surprised if Yohn Royce and Lady Waynwood have their suspicions.

I do not expect her to marry Harry - or anyone else for the time being.  In fact, i expect her to use her marriage to Tyrion as a sort of blocking move to prevent herself from being used as marriage bait.  It is clear that she has no real interest in being married again any time soon.  Any moves toward Harry will be done only at LF's orders, but I don't see it going anywhere.    

Oh yes, I agree with this and I think the Little Bird will also agree.

  • From bits and pieces of overheard conversations Sansa knew that Jon Arryn's bannermen resented Lysa's marriage and begrudged Petyr his authority as Lord Protector of the Vale. The senior branch of House Royce was close to open revolt over her aunt's failure to aid Robb in his war, and the Waynwoods, Redforts, Belmores, and Templetons were giving them every support. The mountain clans were being troublesome as well, and old Lord Hunter had died so suddenly that his two younger sons were accusing their elder brother of having murdered him. The Vale of Arryn might have been spared the worst of the war, but it was hardly the idyllic place that Lady Lysa had made it out to be.
  • "Your lady must go thirsty." Bronze Yohn put himself squarely in Corbray's path.
    "The Lords Declarant." Lyn Corbray snorted. "You should have named yourselves the Six Old Women." He slid the dark sword back into its scabbard and left them, shouldering Brune aside as if he were not there. Alayne listened to his footsteps recede.
  • Later there was a feast of sorts, though Petyr was forced to make apologies for the humble fare. Robert was trotted out in a doublet of cream and blue, and played the little lord quite graciously. Bronze Yohn was not there to see; he had already departed from the Eyrie to begin the long descent, as had Ser Lyn Corbray before him. The other lords remained with them till morn.
He bewitched them, Alayne thought as she lay abed that night listening to the wind howl outside her windows. She could not have said where the suspicion came from, but once it crossed her mind it would not let her sleep. She tossed and turned, worrying at it like a dog at some old bone (words are wind)
 
But Sansa is learning and will be a Stark like her father.
  • For a moment it seemed as though they had come to an impasse, until Lyn Corbray turned from the fire. "All this talk makes me ill. Littlefinger will talk you out of your smallclothes if you listen long enough. The only way to settle his sort is with steel." He drew his longsword.
  • Trust no one, I once told Eddard Stark, but he would not listen. You are Alayne, and you must be Alayne all the time." He put two fingers on her left breast. "Even here. In your heart. Can you do that? Can you be my daughter in your heart?"
Yup, Sansa is listening and is going to serve northern justice by lopping off Littlefinger's head.
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56 minutes ago, Risto said:

Ned being unsuccessful doesn't mean he didn't try to play the Game. It just means that he played and he lost.

Robb played the Game when he sent Catelyn to Renly and Theon to Iron Islands. He wasn't above making compromises and political alliances as limited as his options were at the time.

You see only one side of the Game. The political machinations are far subtler than you give them credit for.

The 'side' of the game she is actually learning. The one that serves ambition and revenge through dishonourable means, and begins wars and leaves dead children in it's wake. What Ned did and what Robb did is simply ruling and leading, extending the meaning of the game of thrones to a lord's job and duty as you want to renders it a meaningless descriptor, and it's not what Sansa is particularly learning.

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3 hours ago, Risto said:

Ned being unsuccessful doesn't mean he didn't try to play the Game. It just means that he played and he lost.

This, plus, we should consider the traumatic effects of Robert's Rebellion on some of the characters exposed to it. We know there was quite a bit of the Game going on before the war, and given how sorrowful the outcome was for Ned, it's not hard to think that he might want to avoid intrigues. Ned's honor might be more than him being a good guy: it might also be a defense mechanism, a way to insulate himself from the scary and violent realities of Westerosi politics. None of that would apply to other Northern lords, or Starks of the past - it makes the "Stark way" we see in ASoIaF more "Ned's Way", which I think makes more sense.

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9 hours ago, Nevets said:

I think Littlefinger has transferred his obsession with Catelyn to Sansa and now considers her as his protege and future partner - both in politics and in love.

This is a good point, an aspect I dared not to touch when I described the relation between Littlefinger and Sansa in the OP. There, I judged Sansa being a pawn in LF's game, posing risks and opportunities only, from LF's point of view. The irrational aspect you put forward however may influence Littlefinger's decisions so that he steps out from his ususal scheme.

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In the event that Tyrion bonds with a dragon, I believe Sansa will have a major role in talking him down from a full on 'dance of the dragons' style campaign to win the iron throne.

I'd say the probability of this is medium to good. Tyrion has already used fire as a weapon of mass destruction - the wildfire, and (I think) burning out the countryside around KL. Now his state of mind is worse, and I don't think he could stand serving another ruler. Plus he says he has unfinished business with the Vale.

On Sansa's side, she has his promise never to attack her, she has a gift for sweet-talking people, she has a good poker face to hide her thoughts and fears, and she has latent warg powers, which could come in handy keeping the dragon calm (if not, well, the dragons were raised by young women, and that might count for something).

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19 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

The 'side' of the game she is actually learning. The one that serves ambition and revenge through dishonourable means, and begins wars and leaves dead children in it's wake. What Ned did and what Robb did is simply ruling and leading, extending the meaning of the game of thrones to a lord's job and duty as you want to renders it a meaningless descriptor, and it's not what Sansa is particularly learning.

Just because she is learning this sort of thing doesn't mean that she is going to put it into practice.  There are certainly elements she will learn that anyone can use.  As for the rest, forewarned is forearmed.  Knowing how the bad guys do it is useful if you are going to go up against them.  And Sansa is far too nice and empathetic a person to emulate Littlefinger or Cersei.  But that doesn't mean she can't use what she learns from them against them.  And I think she will.  For the benefit of House Stark, the North, and Westeros as a whole.

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7 hours ago, Nevets said:

Just because she is learning this sort of thing doesn't mean that she is going to put it into practice.  There are certainly elements she will learn that anyone can use.  As for the rest, forewarned is forearmed.  Knowing how the bad guys do it is useful if you are going to go up against them.  And Sansa is far too nice and empathetic a person to emulate Littlefinger or Cersei.  But that doesn't mean she can't use what she learns from them against them.  And I think she will.  For the benefit of House Stark, the North, and Westeros as a whole.

How do you think Ned and Robb would feel about wooing a man for his position and power? Actually no, a man who will come into power only when Sansa's child cousin kicks the bucket.

Yes, Sansa fans believe she's going to play the game of thrones whilst remaining honourable, no collateral damage here, all for the good of house Stark, best of luck with that.

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11 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

How do you think Ned and Robb would feel about wooing a man for his position and power? Actually no, a man who will come into power only when Sansa's child cousin kicks the bucket.

Yes, Sansa fans believe she's going to play the game of thrones whilst remaining honourable, no collateral damage here, all for the good of house Stark, best of luck with that.

Well, she will probably become a somewhat darker character under LF's tutelage, but not necessarily a "dark" character. 

Side note: I don't think she is going to choose to be with HtH.  She'd choose Sweetrobin to live before letting him die so HtH could become lord. 

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