What's it good for? - Sansa Stark

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Why is it that Sansa has to either hold herself to some lofty standard of idealised heroism and perferction. Or else become an evil coniving monster? 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Anyway as to what is she good for, well. 

LF has indeed become infatuated, and he is indeed letting his guard slip arround her. He wants something from her and he thinks because she is young and presents herself as a bit gullible that he can twist her into whatever he wants. But he is wrong. 

As early on as AGOT Sansa demonstrates her tallent for charm, perception, and how to use knowledge to flatter and ingratiate. She goes on to demonstrate that she is wise enough to keep her head down when the shit starts hitting the fan. And to realise that not all lesons are to be taken in the manner the teacher intended. 

I once wrote a long post detailing the lessons Sansa has learnt. She's definitly astute and she definitly wants her home and family back. We know she wishes to return North and we have strong foreshadowing that she will do so. I think it is pretty certain that she will be the one who destroys Little Finger, after all he is giving her all the tools to do so, and he has Jeyne rattling around at the back of a closet. Once that skeleton falls out Sansa will turn on him. 

Sansa and Arya are indeed like a rose, one is the bloom the other the thorns. One intices you in with it's beauty and it's intoxicating scent, but the other sticks you with the pointy end!

Another phrase often used to describe Sansa is an Iron fist in a Velvet glove. 

I think it's pretty obvious that The Hound being so near to the Vale is purposeful, and that Sandor will somehow make his way back to her. Or she him.  The two of them have an ongoing romantic story line. And symbolism which implies marriage. 

I also think she's likely to take the Vale north in the form of soldiers and grain. LF has his plans but Sansa is a force of her own,she's already deceiving him, playing him and taking note of his plans, strategies and tools. 

 I think her warg power will manifest, I think she'll skinchange a Merlin. The Vale is the centre of Hawking as a pass time, and she enjoyed it with the tyrells in KL. She has oportunity and reason to try her hand at the sport again. And chose a Merlin last time, the smallest European Bird of Prey (Little Bird).  

Finally I think Bran will contact her. We know she visited the Godswood religiously in KL, and lammented the lack of a Heart Tree at the Eyrie. If she continues her devotion now that she is on the ground & the Gates of the Moon is surrounded by woodland. It isn't specified that it has a Godswood, though there is every reason to believe it would. Most castles keep them. Barring the Iron Islands. Even though they are largely ignored and frequently hold a heart tree which is not Weirwood. As Alayne she has more freedom, and could perhaps even venture out of teh Castle grounds to find a Weirwood, sh eis surrounded by Firstmen in the Mountaisn of the Moon, and they must have heart trees? Surely. Anyway I think Bran will contact her, as I think he is contacting Arya and Theon also. And that he'll reach out to Jon & rickon too. I think he is key to reconnecting the Starks. 

[devilish]

At first glance Sansa is powerless. Most of her family had been wiped out, both her husband and herself are fugitives and she’s the play thing of LF who can do whatever he wants with her. There again, she’s equally powerful. She’s got a claim to both Winterfell and the Riverlands (Edmure is alive but he’s in CR) + she’s cousin to the Lord of the Vale. Her husband has a claim to CR. She also happens to be young and incredibly beautiful + in LF she happens to have the best master in the art of manipulation.

If you ask me I think that she will play the innocent girl long enough to convince LF to involve her in one of his plans. Once she’s got tangible proof that she’s aiming to kill Sweet Robin she will use it against him that will see LF losing his life and his role as protector. A naïve Sweet Robin will be swayed to fight for Sansa’s claim to the North and the Vale knights will be enough to break Roose’s back. At that point, the joint Vale + Northern army will march south and they will release the Riverlands from the Lannisters tyranny. The King will be so busy fighting internal fights (Lannisters vs Tyrells, Lannisters vs high sparrow) and external fights (Greyjoys invading the Reach, Danny and Faegon’s arrival) that they will barely have any men left to fight the Northern threat.

At that point Sansa and Tyrion will meet again. The two have a profound respect to one another and have learnt the GOT game enough to keep appearances and use the circumstances to their advantage. Tyrion will be Sansa’s ‘husband’ once more as the Northern Coalition army will fight for his claim to CR. Cersei’s poor management had since made the Westerlands more accommodating to the idea of Tyrion as Warden of the West and will therefore fight for his claim. With CR conquered, Edmure will return home and Danny, Sansa and co will be ready to march for their two final wars, first for KL and then to the war against the whitewalkers.

[Greywater-Watch]

On ‎28‎.‎11‎.‎2016 at 1:01 PM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

,she's already deceiving him

You mean, Sansa is deceiving Littlefinger already? If so, can you give an example?

[Nevets]

On 11/27/2016 at 10:04 PM, chrisdaw said:

How do you think Ned and Robb would feel about wooing a man for his position and power? Actually no, a man who will come into power only when Sansa's child cousin kicks the bucket.

Yes, Sansa fans believe she's going to play the game of thrones whilst remaining honourable, no collateral damage here, all for the good of house Stark, best of luck with that.

Considering that Ned betrothed Sansa to Joffrey for similar reasons, I would anticipate he wouldn't have a problem; might even approve.  As for Sweetrobin, everybody expects him to die before he reaches adulthood.   So planning for that eventuality doesn't seem unreasonable.

And, yes, I expect her to remain honorable.  I do expect her to learn some pragmatism and maybe a sense of ruthlessness,, which her brother and father lacked, which will stand her in good stead.  While I do expect an attempt by Littlefinger to corrupt her, I expect her to be resistant to it.   He will underestimate the power of honor, friendship, and loyalty, and it will be his undoing.

On 11/27/2016 at 1:56 AM, Greywater-Watch said:

This is a good point, an aspect I dared not to touch when I described the relation between Littlefinger and Sansa in the OP. There, I judged Sansa being a pawn in LF's game, posing risks and opportunities only, from LF's point of view. The irrational aspect you put forward however may influence Littlefinger's decisions so that he steps out from his ususal scheme.

You were expecting characters to act rationally!?!   In this series?  

[Morgana Lannister]

On 11/26/2016 at 11:59 AM, chrisdaw said:

Sansa is learning to scheme and acquire power, that is not the way of the Starks of the series and the Starks will not profit from her abilities. Sansa is learning Lannister ways. She is not going north, she is not going to acquire power by birth right, that makes pointless her whole arc, she's going to take power by pulling it out from underneath the other players, in KL, as that's where the game is played.

Some of her assets are on the board. The commander of the KG and most natural leader of men left in the kingdom has sworn a vow to protect her. His sidekick is likewise on the case. The dog is safely tucked away digging graves, in need of a new master.

Some are on the way, the knight reborn in the Faith who'll remember her kind words in spite of him having treated her terribly, the Dornish bombshell prone to think with her emotions, her sister assassin, and most particularly her husband. There are three dragons, and they'll make their riders the three most powerful people in the realm, and Tyrion will be one of them. What will be needed is a PR strategy, a minder of sorts, a wife they'll love so much they'll give him a second chance.

But allies are only half of it, the less fun half. She'll need villains too, for show, to contrast with her lovely self, to pull down so she can climb up over.

Totally in agreement here but I will expand when I have read more of the thread   I totally believe we are going for "super team" here after the final battle and all the people you have described, as odds with each other as they might be at times just nail it IMHO!  I think you have just describe the bones at least of my predicted new Small Council lol

[chrisdaw]

3 hours ago, Nevets said:

Considering that Ned betrothed Sansa to Joffrey for similar reasons, I would anticipate he wouldn't have a problem; might even approve.  As for Sweetrobin, everybody expects him to die before he reaches adulthood.   So planning for that eventuality doesn't seem unreasonable.

No he didn't, it was not a power play on Ned's behalf. He did not go out of his way to create a queen for a daughter like Tywin tried and eventually succeeded and as Mace did likewise. By planning for the eventuality of Robert's death, which is by no means certain, you mean planning to profit by his death, by way of winning over his heir with feminine wiles. Nothing like anything Ned or Robb did or would consent to.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

17 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

You mean, Sansa is deceiving Littlefinger already? If so, can you give an example?

Yes, but it's from TWOW so read at your own risk.  

 

Spoiler

In Alayne I TWOW Sansa makes her way across the courtyard of the Gates of the Moon. As she goes she flirts with multiple men, and generally shows off her interpersonal skills.  Later in this chapter Sansa finds LF in the grain cellars, and they discuss how to play things with Harry The Heir.  During this exchange Sansa tells LF that she does not know how to flirt with a man. Which as we've just seen earlier in both this chapter and the story as a whole; is bollocks. She does this it seems to flatter him  and play into his idealised vision of her as his young, innocent, and malleable protege.  LF gives her a set of instructions, which we later see Sansa performing.We also see her demonstrate that she is in fact a very good flirt. And she goes totally off script, and definitely isn't playing the innocent now. She also does not follow LF's instructions to take Harry out onto the balcony. An action which could have gotten a young maid such as Alayne into trouble, she's intelligent enough to realise that doing so would have placed her in a dangerous position. Showing she is thinking for herself, and not just playing to his (LF'S) tune. As he thinks she is. She also notes astutely that the giant lemon cake in the effigy of the Eyrie is for her, showing she is well aware of her influence on LF, and knows how to play him.   So she is deceiving him.  She is effecting a character for him, just as she did in KL for Cersei and Joffrey. But this time instead of playing in order to avoid decapitation, she's playing in order to make LF think he has more control over her than he has, and she is using his desire for her. She recognises what his desire is and plays that part for him. But when he isn't around she puts on a new act for Harry. The caustic, flirtatious Alayne we see with him is at direct odds with the dutiful & naive girl asking LF how to flirt.  We see a bit of the true Sansa in this chapter too, early on, showing she is well aware still of who she is inside and is actively altering her persona to suit her own agenda with the people she wishes to influence. 

 

[Greywater-Watch]

7 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Yes, but it's from TWOW so read at your own risk.  

 

  Hide contents

In Alayne I TWOW Sansa makes her way across the courtyard of the Gates of the Moon. As she goes she flirts with multiple men, and generally shows off her interpersonal skills.  Later in this chapter Sansa finds LF in the grain cellars, and they discuss how to play things with Harry The Heir.  During this exchange Sansa tells LF that she does not know how to flirt with a man. Which as we've just seen earlier in both this chapter and the story as a whole; is bollocks. She does this it seems to flatter him  and play into his idealised vision of her as his young, innocent, and malleable protege.  LF gives her a set of instructions, which we later see Sansa performing.We also see her demonstrate that she is in fact a very good flirt. And she goes totally off script, and definitely isn't playing the innocent now. She also does not follow LF's instructions to take Harry out onto the balcony. An action which could have gotten a young maid such as Alayne into trouble, she's intelligent enough to realise that doing so would have placed her in a dangerous position. Showing she is thinking for herself, and not just playing to his (LF'S) tune. As he thinks she is. She also notes astutely that the giant lemon cake in the effigy of the Eyrie is for her, showing she is well aware of her influence on LF, and knows how to play him.   So she is deceiving him.  She is effecting a character for him, just as she did in KL for Cersei and Joffrey. But this time instead of playing in order to avoid decapitation, she's playing in order to make LF think he has more control over her than he has, and she is using his desire for her. She recognises what his desire is and plays that part for him. But when he isn't around she puts on a new act for Harry. The caustic, flirtatious Alayne we see with him is at direct odds with the dutiful & naive girl asking LF how to flirt.  We see a bit of the true Sansa in this chapter too, early on, showing she is well aware still of who she is inside and is actively altering her persona to suit her own agenda with the people she wishes to influence. 

 

Hmpfff - (sucking in my breath) - deceiving Littlefinger plays on a very different level for me.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

16 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Hmpfff - (sucking in my breath) - deceiving Littlefinger plays on a very different level for me.

I'm not sure what you mean by this? care to elaborate? 

[Greywater-Watch]

On ‎01‎.‎12‎.‎2016 at 8:53 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I'm not sure what you mean by this? care to elaborate? 

I wnated to express that I do not feel you could call that "deceiving" or misguiding Littlefinger. It is not on the level of deception and scheming that Littlefinger is used to. What you mention is in my opinion not worth mentioning in terms of Sansa getting strong in her way of playing games.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

18 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

I wnated to express that I do not feel you could call that "deceiving" or misguiding Littlefinger. It is not on the level of deception and scheming that Littlefinger is used to. What you mention is in my opinion not worth mentioning in terms of Sansa getting strong in her way of playing games.

Really? so her directly deceiving him, isn't in your opinion her deceiving him? I think you should perhaps think about that a bit more. 

It's rather significant as it shows that she is definitely not under his spell in the way he thinks he has her. It shows she has her own agenda, and is not blindly following him, it shows she is self aware and turned on to the fact she can't trust him, she is aware that he desires her and she is willing to use that to her own advantage. 

I think it's shown very well, it's subtle, like everything about Sansa. you can't have a huge deception come out of left field, because the reader is left thinking what the fuck was that? It's called character development. She is slowly becoming aware and developing her own tactics, she takes lessons where she learns them and then we see her using them to her advantage. 

But deception is deception, and here we see her deliberately deceiving him. The size of what she does isn't so important as the reason why she does it. the reason is clear, she wants LF to see her a certain way, a way which plays into his ego, a way which strokes his self inflated image of himself. This gives her a direct advantage, gaining his trust, putting him on the back foot, and it also utilises his weakness for her. 

 

" Everyone wants something, Alayne. And when you know what a man wants you know who he is, and how to move him "

Spoiler

She's putting this exact lesson into practice in this chapter. And GRRM is letting us know what she is doing too, as not only does he show her doing the exact thing she tells LF she doesn't know how to do; directly before she says  to him that she does not know how to flirt, but he also shows her doing the flirting in a totally different way than that which LF advised, a way which shows she understands Harry far better than LF does, and knows what sort of girl to play in order to lure him in, George shows us that Sansa understands better than LF the implications of going outside, alone with a man. He also shows us that Sansa is aware of what LF wants, when she notes the over the top Lemon Cake is for her. Here GRRM is showing the reader that Sansa is aware of LF's feelings for her and will use them to her advantage.  He shows us too that she is aware of what LF wants from a woman, when he shows her playing a role for him, one which flatters the mans ego and portrays her as innocent and naive. She's figured out what LF desires and she is using that. She also figures out sharpish what Harry desires and she plays that role for him. This chapter is showcasing Sansa's skills.  And yes showing her deceiving Baelish.

 

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

3 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

But deception is deception, and here we see her deliberately deceiving him. The size of what she does isn't so important as the reason why she does it. the reason is clear, she wants LF to see her a certain way, a way which plays into his ego, a way which strokes his self inflated image of himself. This gives her a direct advantage, gaining his trust, putting him on the back foot, and it also utilises his weakness for her.

 

I completely agree.  This strategy of making him think she's totally on board with him has paid off in tangible ways.  By the time they descend to the Gates, she has way more freedom of movement than she's ever had in KL or the Eyrie.  He trusts her so much he feels comfortable leaving her alone to manage things while he attends Lyonel Corbray's wedding across the Vale.  He trusts her completely with the care of his other pawn, Sweetrobin.  He's discussed in detail with her how he plays the game with the Lord's Declarant.  In TWOW she gets even more information on LF's plans in the Vale.  With all this unsupervised freedom (not only has it been good for her psychological health) she can build relationships with other people on her own terms, setting up potential allies:  Myranda, Mya, Lothor Brune, and Sweetrobin mainly.  Maybe Harry too.  We have to see how that plays out, but they really don't seem that keen on each other.  Imagine if she were just directly resisting LF the whole time.  He'd have to lock her away from other people or continue to find ways to blackmail her to keep her quiet.  George is clearly setting her up for her strength to be courtly intrigues, persuading people to her side, and political maneuvering.  The training period is coming to a close and now she'll finally have a court in the Vale to test her skills on.   

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

exactly @Blue-Eyed Wolf I think a lot of people make the mistake of thinking that Sansa is there to facilitate LF's story line, when in fact he is there to facilitate hers.. She's the star here, the point of the Vale plot is to showcase her training montage/coming of age story. 

And courtly intrigue and politics are her required skill set. This is her earning her stripes.  

[The Lord of the Crossing]

While I can agree that sansa may become the lady of the Vale, it is not likely.  She is currently playing a dangerous game with Littlefinger.  A game that could quickly crumble.  Sansa thinks she's smart, but young Ms. Royce knows more than she's letting on.  I am not so sure that Sansa will make it out of the Vale through the Gate.  She might leave the Vale through the Moon door.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

33 minutes ago, Lame Lothar Frey said:

She might leave the Vale through the Moon door.

The Moon Door is in the Eyrie and all upper castles are closed and abandoned for the Winter.  I don't know how that makes any sense for her to die after so much set up.  Myranda does know more than she lets on, but we have to see if she's a friend or foe.  I say friend.  She's had ample time to betray her and hasn't.  Things are coming to a head but it's going to crumble for LF, not Sansa.  After 4 books of being in captivity, I don't think it makes any literary sense for Sansa to stay stuck yet again or remain under LF's control.  

Spoiler

There is this tourney coming up.  Every single tourney in the books has unexpected outcomes and huge turns of events.  The table is about to get flipped over at this tourney and LF is not going to see it coming.

 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Absolutely, it doesn't make sense for her to keep getting beaten, caught by the enemy and have her life generally go tits up. People think GRRM is this subversive writer. But he really isn't his story is following a very classic format and Sansa's story is due an uptick. LF is an antagonist. And his story is due it's downfall. Sansa is currently under his control, she is his student and the narrative requires her to break free, so combined with the lashings of foreshadowing that indicates it, this tells us that she will destroy him. 

And yes Randa is more friend than foe imo.

[Greywater-Watch]

3 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

LF is an antagonist. And his story is due it's downfall. Sansa is currently under his control, she is his student and the narrative requires her to break free, so combined with the lashings of foreshadowing that indicates it, this tells us that she will destroy him. 

If - as you assume - Sansa is already on a better level as his student in political scheming than Littlefinger knows, he is all the more safe from her. The more Sansa learns, the more she will understand that she needs Littlefinger.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

29 minutes ago, Greywater-Watch said:

If - as you assume - Sansa is already on a better level as his student in political scheming than Littlefinger knows, he is all the more safe from her. The more Sansa learns, the more she will understand that she needs Littlefinger.

In what way does she need him? 

Actually I think it is pretty obvious, especially so in Alayne I TWOW that she knows full well that currently she is best served by keeping in with LF. Hence why she goes along with his schemes. To an extent. Because we also see how she is playing her own game alongside. Sansa is intelligent, she can see how currently she is served well by hiding as his daughter in the Vale, she desires to head back north and he offers her the chance to do that. It makes sense so long as she is safe with him, to remain with him so long as it takes to achieve her goals. 

The interesting part comes when he no longer serves her needs, when his wants come into direct conflict with her own, or when she discovers his actions in relation to her Father and Jeyne. Or if he becomes a threat to her himself. Or to those whom she loves. That day will come and when it does Sansa will take him out. I suspect it will be after they return north, as in the snow castle scene it is LF who is helping her to re build the castle, to fix the problems she encounters in acquiring the correct materials etc. It is only after the castle is completed that something happens, The Giant (LF) becomes a threat and Sansa tears it's head off, mounting it on her gate house wall.  I think this shows us that he will go north with her, and aid in restoring the castle, he has the funds, and the means to do it. But that after once she is the one officially in a power position. IE: they are on her turf, she is Lady of Winterfell, or in a position at least as a Stark in her home Castle, then she will see reason to pass judgement and either execute him herself, or have her Headsman execute him. I do wonder about this bit, as Northern justice says the man who passes the sentence must swing the sword. But what about when it is a woman who has passed it? I'd personally love to see her slice his head off herself. And to be honest Yes (before you ask) I do think she could do it. Given a VS blade, and a prone LF absolutely. She is almost 14, this may not happen for the best part of another year - a 15 year old could do that, physically I mean. Or she may have a sworn shield of her own to do the job.  the Hound, Brienne, Jaime. Any would be a possibility, even Ser Ilyn maybe? he has ventured out of KL and is with Jaime who has an investment in Sansa so strong he has abandoned his troupes. 

[Greywater-Watch]

13 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

In what way does she need him? 

Actually I think it is pretty obvious, especially so in Alayne I TWOW that she knows full well that currently she is best served by keeping in with LF. Hence why she goes along with his schemes. To an extent. Because we also see how she is playing her own game alongside. Sansa is intelligent, she can see how currently she is served well by hiding as his daughter in the Vale, she desires to head back north and he offers her the chance to do that. It makes sense so long as she is safe with him, to remain with him so long as it takes to achieve her goals. 

The interesting part comes when he no longer serves her needs, when his wants come into direct conflict with her own, or when she discovers his actions in relation to her Father and Jeyne. Or if he becomes a threat to her himself. Or to those whom she loves. That day will come and when it does Sansa will take him out. I suspect it will be after they return north, as in the snow castle scene it is LF who is helping her to re build the castle, to fix the problems she encounters in acquiring the correct materials etc. It is only after the castle is completed that something happens, The Giant (LF) becomes a threat and Sansa tears it's head off, mounting it on her gate house wall.  I think this shows us that he will go north with her, and aid in restoring the castle, he has the funds, and the means to do it. But that after once she is the one officially in a power position. IE: they are on her turf, she is Lady of Winterfell, or in a position at least as a Stark in her home Castle, then she will see reason to pass judgement and either execute him herself, or have her Headsman execute him. I do wonder about this bit, as Northern justice says the man who passes the sentence must swing the sword. But what about when it is a woman who has passed it? I'd personally love to see her slice his head off herself. And to be honest Yes (before you ask) I do think she could do it. Given a VS blade, and a prone LF absolutely. She is almost 14, this may not happen for the best part of another year - a 15 year old could do that, physically I mean. Or she may have a sworn shield of her own to do the job.  the Hound, Brienne, Jaime. Any would be a possibility, even Ser Ilyn maybe? he has ventured out of KL and is with Jaime who has an investment in Sansa so strong he has abandoned his troupes. 

What you say is of course possible. I have strong doubts though, as I think Sansa still is far away from a level in cleverness to be a threat to Littlefinger.