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U.S. Politics 2016: "You Suck!!!" "No, you Suck!!!"


Ser Scot A Ellison

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3 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

It will be interesting to see how high the turnover rate is among his cabinet.

I would put the over/under at 'historically high'.

I dunno, if the allegations that Trump is disinterested in governing are true, then it means cabinet members will have a pretty free hand and probably wind up being a cabinet that functions largely as a collective of independent fiefdoms with an absentee king. I can't see too many people in that cabinet choosing to leave. Though I guess this non-team may end fighting among themselves for position as cabinet supremo, so some people who don't fall into line might end up being kicked out of the nest.

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18 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Ok...Have we really reached the point where we are taking solace in the fact that there are also noteworthy differences between the President Elect and Hitler? 

Yep.

That said, @Swordfishmanaged to actually land a good point. Comparing Trump to Hitler isn't that useful here, because Trump really doesn't have much in the way of actual goals beyond his own self-aggrandizement. The reason that he does the Hitlerian types of propaganda is because his base is super excited about him being super racist and it gets him cheers, but it's not that he particularly buys it himself all that much. 

Bannon, however, does.

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1 minute ago, The Anti-Targ said:

I dunno, if the allegations that Trump is disinterested in governing are true, then it means cabinet members will have a pretty free hand and probably wind up being a cabinet that functions largely as a collective of independent fiefdoms with an absentee king. I can't see too many people in that cabinet choosing to leave. Though I guess this non-team may end fighting among themselves for position as cabinet supremo, so some people who don't fall into line might end up being kicked out of the nest.

Time will tell I guess.  I think the fact that Trump seems to listen and react to whatever the person currently in his ear is saying does not bode well for long tenured cabinet members, even if he isn't closely involved in governing.

'Hey, Donald, this thing <insert cabinet member> is saying/doing is making you look bad'.

Seems like something like that could get someone twitter fired pretty quick.

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18 minutes ago, Fez said:

 

Seems like the best move for Democrats is to try to co-opt Trump wherever possible; build relationships with him and his family get him to keep his agenda as centrist as possible. And always try to make sure they are the last people to talk with him before final decisions are made. Schumer's existing and Obama's new relationships with Trump are key. 

 

And just how are the Democrats supposed to able to do the above? This seems like a pipe dream to me -- the last people to talk with Trump about any decision are almost surely going to be his own personal advisers in the White House, not Schumer or Obama. 

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2 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Yep.

That said, @Swordfishmanaged to actually land a good point. Comparing Trump to Hitler isn't that useful here, because Trump really doesn't have much in the way of actual goals beyond his own self-aggrandizement. The reason that he does the Hitlerian types of propaganda is because his base is super excited about him being super racist and it gets him cheers, but it's not that he particularly buys it himself all that much. 

Bannon, however, does.

Agreed.  On both counts.

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20 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

It will be interesting to see how high the turnover rate is among his cabinet.

I would put the over/under at 'historically high'.

I expect turnover in the West Wing to be very high. I'm not sure about the cabinet though. They don't spend every day in close proximity to Trump and whatever antics he gets up too. They'll be off at their agencies headquarters, pursuing their own agendas.

 

9 minutes ago, Ormond said:

And just how are the Democrats supposed to able to do the above? This seems like a pipe dream to me -- the last people to talk with Trump about any decision are almost surely going to be his own personal advisers in the White House, not Schumer or Obama. 

Well Obama and Trump already talk regularly on the phone; most of the time due to Trump calling Obama. Seems like Obama can keep that up pretty easily if he wants to. As for Schumer, he just needs to be closer to Trump than McConnell or Ryan are; and probably visit regularly whenever Trump's in New York (easier to make an excuse to visit there than in DC).

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11 minutes ago, Ormond said:

And just how are the Democrats supposed to able to do the above? This seems like a pipe dream to me -- the last people to talk with Trump about any decision are almost surely going to be his own personal advisers in the White House, not Schumer or Obama. 

It would be pretty difficult, agreed. That said, you don't have to be the last person in the room, and the President can call Obama all the time. 

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57 minutes ago, Ormond said:

And just how are the Democrats supposed to able to do the above? This seems like a pipe dream to me -- the last people to talk with Trump about any decision are almost surely going to be his own personal advisers in the White House, not Schumer or Obama. 

Do what Kellyanne Conway suggested: Go on CNN and make the suggestion you want Trump to hear. 

Preferably around 5 am, when he seems to be watching lots of cable news.

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47 minutes ago, Fez said:

I expect turnover in the West Wing to be very high. I'm not sure about the cabinet though. They don't spend every day in close proximity to Trump and whatever antics he gets up too. They'll be off at their agencies headquarters, pursuing their own agendas.

 

Well Obama and Trump already talk regularly on the phone; most of the time due to Trump calling Obama. Seems like Obama can keep that up pretty easily if he wants to. As for Schumer, he just needs to be closer to Trump than McConnell or Ryan are; and probably visit regularly whenever Trump's in New York (easier to make an excuse to visit there than in DC).

How easy is it to fire the Secretary of State or Defense or Health and Human Services after he/she has already been confirmed and sworn in?

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1 hour ago, TerraPrime said:

But is it a distinction that's worth the difference? The NFL League Office was not-for-profit until 2015, and the Susan B. Komen Foundation is a non-profit.

Yes, I think so.  I don't think all charter schools are teh evil, nor do I think all existing public schools are some kind of beacon of educational light.  Equally I acknowledge that there are bad charter schools and good public school systems.  I understand that is an unpopular opinion here.

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17 minutes ago, White Walker Texas Ranger said:

How easy is it to fire the Secretary of State or Defense or Health and Human Services after he/she has already been confirmed and sworn in?

It's not particularly hard for the secretary of state. I can't find a direct link for firing HHS, but I believe both are able to be fired without any input from congress. 

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4 minutes ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

Yes, I think so.  I don't think all charter schools are teh evil, nor do I think all existing public schools are some kind of beacon of educational light.  Equally I acknowledge that there are bad charter schools and good public school systems.  I understand that is an unpopular opinion here.

It's not a question of individual good or bad schools, the question is whether one or other system is at greater risk of producing bad educational outcomes. I would tend to be of the opinion that a system with less oversight and accountability would have a higher risk of producing negative educational outcomes.

Do we know what proportion of charter schools have been objectively assessed as failed schools, vs the proportion of public schools that have been objectively assessed as failed schools? That sort of statistic might give us some idea as to whether the charter school system is a better or worse approach to the education of the masses than a public school system.

Out early dip into the charter school pool has seen about 4 charter schools established and 1 has completely failed and a second has had significant problems. A small sample size to be sure, but a 50% significant problems rate is certainly a lot higher than the rate of significant problems in our state schools, so things haven't got off to all that great of a start.

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So I'm on a cruise ship full of Americans, some of them very rich Americans. My brother and I sat and chatted with a couple who turned out to be 'Pinnacle Club' members, folks who've accumulated a staggering number of points by going on many cruises with this cruise line. They have 12 family members with them (though to be fair, I don't know that they paid for them). I mentioned I was concerned about the appointment of Mrs. Devos as Education Secretary, and wouldn't the use of vouchers be destructive of public education. He said the public education system was in such a mess, putting someone in who would shake things up might be a good thing, it couldn't make things worse. He said public education in his part of Tennessee was so bad they had to send all their children to private schools, and on top of that they then had to support the public system as well. I asked, but the vouchers would only help the wealthy, the poor wouldn't get enough to send their children to private schools, and how would the poor better themselves without a good education?  His response? 'Well, there will always be poor people'.

And now I'm sitting having coffee listening to an older guy telling his companions 'Trump is such a smart businessman. You know that governor who opposed him, and who he's now appointed? Look how smart that was - now she works for him, and if she doesn't listen to him he'll say 'you're fired!''

And some other Trump supporters have taken the position of 'what have we got to lose'.

Sadly, we also ran into some Canadians who totally bought into 'crooked Hillary', and 'look at their crooked land deals going all the way back to when Clinton wa Governor of Arkansas, he was so crooked, it's all well known!'

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19 minutes ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

Yes, I think so.  I don't think all charter schools are teh evil, nor do I think all existing public schools are some kind of beacon of educational light.  Equally I acknowledge that there are bad charter schools and good public school systems.  I understand that is an unpopular opinion here.

Same. My fiance went to a charter school in NYC and it was a really good education. I went to public school in VA and it was a fine education. I think both have their pluses and minuses.

What I am against is de-funding one to fund the other and I'm very much against a voucher system or privatization of primary/secondary education. None of this should be run for profit but should be an investment into our future as a country. The single biggest way to help rural America is to invest in and improve education. Jobs are being created, skills required these days are just different. Companies will be willing to open offices in smaller towns if they can find the talent they need. I get tired of the "bring manufacturing back" mantra but ignore the practical reality of today's economy.

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7 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

Sadly, we also ran into some Canadians who totally bought into 'crooked Hillary', and 'look at their crooked land deals going all the way back to when Clinton wa Governor of Arkansas, he was so crooked, it's all well known!'

Well it seems that we have comparative advantage or superior economies of scale here in the US in the production of fake news. So, it makes sense that it would be something that we would export to other countries.

Sorry about that.

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26 minutes ago, White Walker Texas Ranger said:

How easy is it to fire the Secretary of State or Defense or Health and Human Services after he/she has already been confirmed and sworn in?

It's my understanding they are appointed by and serve at the pleasure of the President. The senate merely gives it's assent to the appointment. The President is still the employer and would I think have sole discretion in firing a cabinet member.

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10 minutes ago, Mexal said:

Same. My fiance went to a charter school in NYC and it was a really good education. I went to public school in VA and it was a fine education. I think both have their pluses and minuses.

What I am against is de-funding one to fund the other and I'm very much against a voucher system or privatization of primary/secondary education. None of this should be run for profit but should be an investment into our future as a country. The single biggest way to help rural America is to invest in and improve education. Jobs are being created, skills required these days are just different. Companies will be willing to open offices in smaller towns if they can find the talent they need. I get tired of the "bring manufacturing back" mantra but ignore the practical reality of today's economy.

Honestly, why the hell would you ever want to bring manufacturing back? Most of the jobs are soul destroying, low skill, drudgery. There are enough shitty service jobs (flippin' burgers as the saying goes) that cannot ever be outsourced to foreign countries for those who are incapable of gaining the level of education and skills needed for what should be more satisfying career opportunities in a vibrant, advanced economy. And there will still always be some level of manufacturing activity. But who in their right mind wants sweatshop type labour to come back? Yuck!

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It isn't just the manufacturing jobs. Typically, if a company like Ford or GM sets up shop in a moderate sized town in the US, there is a whole economy (shopping malls, coffee places etc...) that is created around this - the so called company town. Once that company closes shop, it just leaves a hollowed out husk of where a reasonably vibrant small town used to be.

I think this has been the template for many places in the midwest since the 90s, and talk of putting coal companies out of business (for example) just sends jitters down many people's spines.

So yes, while many of the jobs may be low skill and repetitive, some of them will not be, and the ripple effect from bringing manufacturing back is a fair bit substantial.

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7 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Honestly, why the hell would you ever want to bring manufacturing back? Most of the jobs are soul destroying, low skill, drudgery. There are enough shitty service jobs (flippin' burgers as the saying goes) that cannot ever be outsourced to foreign countries for those who are incapable of gaining the level of education and skills needed for what should be more satisfying career opportunities in a vibrant, advanced economy. And there will still always be some level of manufacturing activity. But who in their right mind wants sweatshop type labour to come back? Yuck!

Maybe it's because I'm just a little ol' hill billy, but I think there would be plenty of people that would be willing to work in good manufacturing jobs. That's the kind of work a lot of my family did. I have friends who do that kind of work and are happy with it.

But, as pointed out a lot of those jobs are not coming back whether people would be willing to do them or not. And the newer kinds of jobs are probably going to require more education and training. And that is going to be a major challenge for this country if the labor market is going to shift from manufacturing jobs, that once supported the middle class, into the jobs that are replacing manufacturing ones.

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