The Red Woman... Are Melisandre and Shiera the same person?

[Yukle]

I began this thought on another thread but I decided to look this up in detail for clues. We know already that Brynden Rivers extended his lifespan by becoming a talking tree, living out his watch as the Three-Eyed Crow.

@Lord Varys pointed out that all of the key characters in the Blackfyre Rebellions have proved important later: Bittersteel created the Golden Company, Brynden became the Three-Eyed Crow, a female Blackfyre somewhere along the line gave birth to (f)Aegon...

What about Shiera? There's a common theory that she is Quaithe, but what's to say that she isn't Melisandre?

After all, consider the following:

* Shiera was legitimised, but her station and power was drawn from her relationship to Brynden. Once he was attainted, her standing fell, so it's possible that she left the court.

* She is rumoured to have "bathed in blood" which connects strongly to the red that Melisandre wears.

* Melisandre recalls that she has practiced her art for, "Years beyond count." Shiera's age is uncertain - the family history in The World of Ice and Fire never explicitly says that she was born after Brynden, but she was born to Aegon IV's ninth and final mistress. It's likely she's younger than Brynden but she'd still be at least 120.

* Melisandre speaks High Valyrian. Asshai was not a colony of the Valyrian Empire, so why does she know this? Well, Targaryen children are generally bilingual: learning the Andal and Valyrian languages.

* Both women are known sorcerers with unsavoury reputations.

* Both women are known to use their sexuality to influence men to do what they want them to.

* Brynden left his post at the Night's Watch to prevent the coming Long Night. He put the prevention of the Others paramount over all else - which is what Melisandre is doing with Stannis' forces. She is truly committed to preventing the arrival of the Others and the Long Night. She and Brynden were both conspirators within Aerys' court, and shared a bed. They must also share the same motivation for preventing the Others.

* Melisandre wears a glamour (her necklace, which like the ruby given to Mance is definitely masking her true form).

* Melisandre has unnatural red eyes. They're almost certainly magically altered. They seem to be different to the naturally violet eyes of the Targaryens. This makes sense, though - her green and blue eye are well known so she must hide them.

* And of course, there's the SSM which states: "Melisandre has gone to Stannis entirely on her own and has her own agenda."

It makes perfect sense that the two youngest children of Aegon IV are still alive, using their magic to prolong their lives and are committed to saving the Realm at whatever cost is necessary. Certainly, Melisandre's means are ruthless and cruel but this is consistent with Brynden's leadership style, too.

Is this crazy? Could the Red Woman in fact be the elderly sorceress?

EDITED TO ADD (after discussion)

This has been discussed before: Oops. I didn't search.  

Some points against this argument:

* Melisandre doesn't recognise Brynden in her vision in the flames. My response: There's nothing to suggest that Brynden is immediately recognisable, especially in his present state. Furthermore, she may be aware of who she is seeing.

* Melisandre recalls the sale of "Melony" as "lot seven" in her POV chapter. That is probably her. This is a pretty compelling point against the idea. It explains her ability to speak Valyrian, if she was raised in Slaver's Bay. The best I can come up with, and I know that it's a stretch, is that Melony is not Melisandre, but rather a slave she witnessed being sold.

[Moutere_boy]

I started reading that thinking "here we go again" and even kind of mad at myself for clicking to read it....and yet I am really compelled by your points. I think that actually fits pretty well, other than her vision of BR and Bran and thinking they were the enemy?

I would be a little gutted if it turns out to be true as I really like the idea of her just being who she says (and thinks in her POV) she is, a girl sold as a slave to the church who feels it is her destiny to find and guide AA to defeat the great other. I mean, I think she is way off base and wrong about most everything else she thinks and would love for the book and show to be on the same page with her being really old, but I am thinking of much older that BR. Years beyond count seems like a much longer span of time than 120 years to me. You might be totally right but I am hoping when (if) her backstory gets expanded that it will more to provide exposition on the workings of her religion or the AA prophecy.

Great points though!

 

 

[Aedam Targaryen]

27 minutes ago, Yukle said:

I began this thought on another thread but I decided to look this up in detail for clues. We know already that Brynden Rivers extended his lifespan by becoming a talking tree, living out his watch as the Three-Eyed Crow.

@Lord Varys pointed out that all of the key characters in the Blackfyre Rebellions have proved important later: Bittersteel created the Golden Company, Brynden became the Three-Eyed Crow, a female Blackfyre somewhere along the line gave birth to (f)Aegon...

What about Shiera? There's a common theory that she is Quaithe, but what's to say that she isn't Melisandre?

After all, consider the following:

* Shiera was legitimised, but her station and power was drawn from her relationship to Brynden. Once he was attainted, her standing fell, so it's possible that she left the court.

* She is rumoured to have "bathed in blood" which connects strongly to the red that Melisandre wears.

* Melisandre recalls that she has practiced her art for, "Years beyond count." Shiera's age is uncertain - the family history in The World of Ice and Fire never explicitly says that she was born after Brynden, but she was born to Aegon IV's ninth and final mistress. It's likely she's younger than Brynden but she'd still be at least 120.

* Melisandre speaks High Valyrian. Asshai was not a colony of the Valyrian Empire, the so why does she know this? Well, Targaryen children are generally bilingual: learning the Andal and Valyrian languages.

* Both women are known sorcerers with unsavoury reputations.

* Both women are known to use their sexuality to influence men to do what they want them to.

* Brynden left his post at the Night's Watch to prevent the coming Long Night. He put the prevention of the Others paramount over all else - which is what Melisandre is doing with Stannis' forces. She is truly committed to preventing the arrival of the Others and the Long Night. She and Brynden were both conspirators within Aerys' court, and shared a bed. They must also share the same motivation for preventing the Others.

* Melisandre wears a glamour (her necklace, which like the ruby given to Mance is definitely masking her true form).

* Melisandre has unnatural red eyes. They're almost certainly magically altered. They seem to be different to the naturally violet eyes of the Targaryens. This makes sense, though - her green and blue eye are well known so she must hide them.

* And of course, there's the SSM which states: "Melisandre has gone to Stannis entirely on her own and has her own agenda."

It makes perfect sense that the two youngest children of Aegon IV are still alive, using their magic to prolong their lives and are committed to saving the Realm at whatever cost is necessary. Certainly, Melisandre's means are ruthless and cruel but this is consistent with Brynden's leadership style, too.

Is this crazy? Could the Red Woman in fact be the elderly sorceress?

 

Great post! While I don't subscribe to this theory, I did enjoy all of your points. As to the bolded section, I don't think it is a wild assumption that Targaryens would learn Valyrian, but I don't remember ever knowing that as a fact. 

Also, Mel seems to be almost guessing at times... if she was actually Shiera working with the same motivation as Bloodraven, I would think she would know more than she does. If they started on this 'save the world' mission together, they really wouldn't have too much trouble communicating with each other. She just seems a few steps behind Bloodraven in the knowledge dept. 

But other than those two points, I like everything else! 

[chrisdaw]

It's been gone over multiple times. We have a back story for Mel which by her thoughts places her in Essos (Volantis, red temple) when half a child as a slave. If that were to have happened to Shiera we should know. According to AGOT actors GRRM said Melisandre is 100s of years old, which is older than Shiera.

[Queen of Procrastination]

Nice write-up 

There was a theory in that regard back in 2013:

I'm actually a bit fascinated by Shiera, despite the fact that we never saw her on page. 

This would be an interesting theory, especially with her not recognising Bloodraven and believing that he's her enemy. 

However, I'm doubtful about it, because of the whole "Melony Lot Seven" thing. It sounds like Melisandre was auctioned as a slave at a rather young age, which wouldn't find with what we know about Shiera

There is still the theory that Melisandre is the daughter of Bloodraven and Shiera though: http://www.tearsofblood.org/mel-theredstarbleedingsbm

It was also discussed in that thread: 

And here is the original discussion thread of that theory:

 

[Wrl6199]

1 minute ago, chrisdaw said:

It's been gone over multiple times. We have a back story for Mel which by her thoughts places her in Essos (Volantis, red temple) when half a child as a slave. If that were to have happened to Shiera we should know. According to AGOT actors GRRM said Melisandre is 100s of years old, which is older than Shiera.

Yep as you said its been gone over plenty of times. Melisandre and Shiera are definitely not the same person. As you pointed out we have already had prov chapters for Melisande. If we had a chapter for her wouldnt it probably mentioned the fact that they would have been the same.

[Dorian Martell's son]

2 hours ago, Yukle said:

I began this thought on another thread but I decided to look this up in detail for clues. We know already that Brynden Rivers extended his lifespan by becoming a talking tree, living out his watch as the Three-Eyed Crow.

@Lord Varys pointed out that all of the key characters in the Blackfyre Rebellions have proved important later: Bittersteel created the Golden Company, Brynden became the Three-Eyed Crow, a female Blackfyre somewhere along the line gave birth to (f)Aegon...

What about Shiera? There's a common theory that she is Quaithe, but what's to say that she isn't Melisandre?

After all, consider the following:

* Shiera was legitimised, but her station and power was drawn from her relationship to Brynden. Once he was attainted, her standing fell, so it's possible that she left the court.

* She is rumoured to have "bathed in blood" which connects strongly to the red that Melisandre wears.

* Melisandre recalls that she has practiced her art for, "Years beyond count." Shiera's age is uncertain - the family history in The World of Ice and Fire never explicitly says that she was born after Brynden, but she was born to Aegon IV's ninth and final mistress. It's likely she's younger than Brynden but she'd still be at least 120.

* Melisandre speaks High Valyrian. Asshai was not a colony of the Valyrian Empire, so why does she know this? Well, Targaryen children are generally bilingual: learning the Andal and Valyrian languages.

* Both women are known sorcerers with unsavoury reputations.

* Both women are known to use their sexuality to influence men to do what they want them to.

* Brynden left his post at the Night's Watch to prevent the coming Long Night. He put the prevention of the Others paramount over all else - which is what Melisandre is doing with Stannis' forces. She is truly committed to preventing the arrival of the Others and the Long Night. She and Brynden were both conspirators within Aerys' court, and shared a bed. They must also share the same motivation for preventing the Others.

* Melisandre wears a glamour (her necklace, which like the ruby given to Mance is definitely masking her true form).

* Melisandre has unnatural red eyes. They're almost certainly magically altered. They seem to be different to the naturally violet eyes of the Targaryens. This makes sense, though - her green and blue eye are well known so she must hide them.

* And of course, there's the SSM which states: "Melisandre has gone to Stannis entirely on her own and has her own agenda."

It makes perfect sense that the two youngest children of Aegon IV are still alive, using their magic to prolong their lives and are committed to saving the Realm at whatever cost is necessary. Certainly, Melisandre's means are ruthless and cruel but this is consistent with Brynden's leadership style, too.

Is this crazy? Could the Red Woman in fact be the elderly sorceress?

 

I would have to say no just because Mel sees a vision of Bran and Brynden in the flames when she is at the wall and If she was Shiera, she would recognize her former lover 

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I would have to say no just because Mel sees a vision of Bran and Brynden in the flames when she is at the wall and If she was Shiera, she would recognize her former lover 

Indeed. That puts this theory pretty much to rest. In addition, Melisandre doesn't give any hint that she once lived in Westeros. She might have been born there or have another connection to Westeros (say, a parent born there) but there is no reason to believe she spend decades at court in her youth.

Shiera would have exerted a lot of informal and direct power as Bloodraven's paramour and the most beautiful woman of her age. Mel reveals that she is more obsessed with how to appear powerful and important, suggesting that she grew up watching how the powerful showed off their power to the powerless rather than in the midst of power.

Not to mention that the whole Melony flashback very much indicates that Melony is Melisandre, and not her daughter. Why the hell would George now introduce some lost daughter of Melisandre's?

The best idea I have for this whole thing is that Bittersteel eventually took his revenge on Bloodraven by capturing Shiera at one point, eventually selling her and her young daughter Melony into slavery.

By the way, the idea that Mel ever was sold by slavers in Volantis or ever worked in the Red Temple of Volantis is very unlikely considering that the Volantene slaves all wear tattoos. Unless Mel is hiding those tattoos using a glamor it is rather unlikely she ever lived in Volantis as a slave.

The whole 'lot seven' thing rather suggests she was sold as a slave in Slaver's Bay.

[Yukle]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Shiera would have exerted a lot of informal and direct power as Bloodraven's paramour and the most beautiful woman of her age. Mel reveals that she is more obsessed with how to appear powerful and important, suggesting that she grew up watching how the powerful showed off their power to the powerless rather than in the midst of power.

Not to mention that the whole Melony flashback very much indicates that Melony is Melisandre, and not her daughter. Why the hell would George now introduce some lost daughter of Melisandre's?

The best idea I have for this whole thing is that Bittersteel eventually took his revenge on Bloodraven by capturing Shiera at one point, eventually selling her and her young daughter Melony into slavery.

By the way, the idea that Mel ever was sold by slavers in Volantis or ever worked in the Red Temple of Volantis is very unlikely considering that the Volantene slaves all wear tattoos. Unless Mel is hiding those tattoos using a glamor it is rather unlikely she ever lived in Volantis as a slave.

This is possible, and it does account for her ability to speak Valyrian.

4 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I would have to say no just because Mel sees a vision of Bran and Brynden in the flames when she is at the wall and If she was Shiera, she would recognize her former lover 

Perhaps - he isn't in recognisable condition.

6 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

According to AGOT actors GRRM said Melisandre is 100s of years old, which is older than Shiera.

There seem to be discrepancies between the two versions of the story, though.

 

Overall I have to admit that I forgot about her recollection of the slavery sale. It's the one killer bit of evidence that makes the theory slip away. However, nothing else seems to discredit the idea. She certainly witnessed a slave sale - but it does seem strange. Why wouldn't she have the same name? Why Melony? Is that actually her?

Probably, but not certainly. If it's not, then there's nothing much to suggest Shiera is still alive. If Melony is Melisandre then... well, yeah, she's not Shiera.

[DominusNovus]

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Indeed. That puts this theory pretty much to rest. In addition, Melisandre doesn't give any hint that she once lived in Westeros. She might have been born there or have another connection to Westeros (say, a parent born there) but there is no reason to believe she spend decades at court in her youth.

Shiera would have exerted a lot of informal and direct power as Bloodraven's paramour and the most beautiful woman of her age. Mel reveals that she is more obsessed with how to appear powerful and important, suggesting that she grew up watching how the powerful showed off their power to the powerless rather than in the midst of power.

Not to mention that the whole Melony flashback very much indicates that Melony is Melisandre, and not her daughter. Why the hell would George now introduce some lost daughter of Melisandre's?

The best idea I have for this whole thing is that Bittersteel eventually took his revenge on Bloodraven by capturing Shiera at one point, eventually selling her and her young daughter Melony into slavery.

By the way, the idea that Mel ever was sold by slavers in Volantis or ever worked in the Red Temple of Volantis is very unlikely considering that the Volantene slaves all wear tattoos. Unless Mel is hiding those tattoos using a glamor it is rather unlikely she ever lived in Volantis as a slave.

The whole 'lot seven' thing rather suggests she was sold as a slave in Slaver's Bay.

 

The idea of Mel's early life being so traumatic, being cast down from the heights of power along with her closest family, reminds me of Viserys in a way.  It would certainly fit the idea of being obsessed with constantly wanting to project the idea of being powerful and important.

[BlueNightzx]

No.
If she was we would not get a pov of her
she does not recognize BR or any personal importance to the wall

not everyone is a secret targ, give grrm a little more credit, he knows how to write good characters that don't need to be fruit of purple eyed blond hair incest.

and mel's backstory of being a slave in essos is far more compelling in my opinion.

[Jon Fossoway]

Unnatural longevity is a recurring theme in GRRM. But this theory is mostly discredited since Melissandre don't give us a single hint about this in her POVs. There's always a far off possibility, of her deliberately getting dormant in another body (or series of bodies, or her own body) until the time comes, and the stars are aligned, but I... find it unlikely. GRRM is a lovecraftian junkie, and HPL is all around ASOIAF, but I see that it isn't really in the main characters plots.

[YOVMO]

8 hours ago, Yukle said:

This is possible, and it does account for her ability to speak Valyrian.

Perhaps - he isn't in recognisable condition.

There seem to be discrepancies between the two versions of the story, though.

 

Overall I have to admit that I forgot about her recollection of the slavery sale. It's the one killer bit of evidence that makes the theory slip away. However, nothing else seems to discredit the idea. She certainly witnessed a slave sale - but it does seem strange. Why wouldn't she have the same name? Why Melony? Is that actually her?

Probably, but not certainly. If it's not, then there's nothing much to suggest Shiera is still alive. If Melony is Melisandre then... well, yeah, she's not Shiera.

I like your write up and I think your rebuttals are correct. I was in S+B=M camp for a long time. I have seen no compelling reason to think that @yolkboy didn't nail this one dead to rights http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/96824-sbm-mel-the-red-star-bleeding-melony-seastar-part-2-has-been-added-on-pg9/

[Dorian Martell's son]

9 hours ago, Yukle said:

 

Overall I have to admit that I forgot about her recollection of the slavery sale. It's the one killer bit of evidence that makes the theory slip away. 

That and every other bit of evidence presented here. We can safely say Mel and Shiera are different people 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, DominusNovus said:

The idea of Mel's early life being so traumatic, being cast down from the heights of power along with her closest family, reminds me of Viserys in a way.  It would certainly fit the idea of being obsessed with constantly wanting to project the idea of being powerful and important.

She did not necessarily remember all that directly. Melony could still have been an infant or a very young child when her mother left Westeros. The slave auction memory could very well be one of the earliest memories Melisandre has. And Mel might not really know who exactly she is and who her parents were.

Hell, if Bittersteel was involved in her selling her into slavery he could very well have been her biological father. The man could have abducted Shiera, raped her a few times, only to sell her into slavery to punish her for choosing the other guy all those years ago.

[John Suburbs]

17 hours ago, Yukle said:

snip

You forgot the heart-shaped face. Both Mel and Shiera are said to have one.

I doubt they are one and the same, though, for the reasons mentioned above But they could be mother-daughter or grandmother-grand daughter.

Also of note: Jeyne Westerling also has a heart-shaped face, and she is the great-grand daughter of Maggy the Frog, who, of course, possess all kinds of magical powers. Mayhaps Maggy is the glamoured Shiera?

[Yukle]

5 hours ago, YOVMO said:

I like your write up and I think your rebuttals are correct. I was in S+B=M camp for a long time. I have seen no compelling reason to think that @yolkboy didn't nail this one dead to rights http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/96824-sbm-mel-the-red-star-bleeding-melony-seastar-part-2-has-been-added-on-pg9/

That's compelling. Being her daughter makes sense - the only exception being "years beyond count."

If she's Shiera's daughter, she's still within the normal lifespan of a human. Obviously she's old, but nothing too unnatural (her appearance notwithstanding).

[Lord Varys]

10 hours ago, Yukle said:

That's compelling. Being her daughter makes sense - the only exception being "years beyond count."

If she's Shiera's daughter, she's still within the normal lifespan of a human. Obviously she's old, but nothing too unnatural (her appearance notwithstanding).

That can easily enough be hyperbole. Mel could easily enough have spend decades in Asshai that felt like centuries to her.

In addition, a daughter of Bloodraven and Shiera could already have been born by the time of the Dunk & Egg stories, making her at least as old as Egg or Aemon. Granted, that's still within the framework of natural lifespans but Mel looks a lot younger than, say, Maester Aemon.

By the way, her new name, Melisandre, could easily enough be the Valyrian or Asshai'i version or bastardization of her original name. Perhaps whoever bought her could not pronounce her given name and thus chose his version of it. Melisandre is a French name and is supposed to feel strange and foreign in comparison to the Westerosi names. But it is not as foreign as the names of Slaver's Bay.

[Light a wight tonight]

Shiera is Quaithe, not Melisandre. It is known.

[Yukle]

43 minutes ago, Light a wight tonight said:

Shiera is Quaithe, not Melisandre. It is known.

That would explain why she wears a mask but it wouldn't explain why Dany hasn't noticed that the only feature she can see (Quaithe's eyes) aren't distinctive. Shiera's eyes don't match, so surely Dany would have noticed this. Tyrion spotted (f)Aegon's violet eyes even as the blue hair was meant to make them seem bluer. So it's a stretch to say that Dany wouldn't notice, isn't it?