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Speculations, news, theories for season 7. (includes leaks )

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6 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

The Lannisters have the largest army in Westeros. That's been repeatedly said on the show. The Lannisters didn't need the Tyrells to defeat Stannis, but they were still a nice addition to their forces. It was Margarey who was about to be given the Walk of Shame, or so they believed, so naturally it was the Tyrells who would give the manpower. The Tyrell army may have even been closer.

As for Cersei, parleying with her would save lives and reserve the manpower needed to deal with the real threat. As I said, treating with Cersei has absolutely no downside. 

I disagree. Even in the show, the Tyrell army was needed to defeat Stannis. The Lannister army may have been claimed to be the largest on the show but they've fought the Starks and Stannis and one would assume their numbers would have been depleted after all the wars. And I'm pretty sure its implied several times on the show that Tywin needed the Tyrell's to hold KL, hence the reason he bend over backwards to accommodate them.

Treating with Cersei has a lot of issues or downside as you put it. She is known to be a conniving, traitorous murderer who will do anything for power. So why should Dany (who has been shown to unleash fire and blood for much less) have any incentive to treat with her? I don't think D&D have the skill to make this parley of sorts compelling. They'll just expect the viewers to forget everything they've seen so far and throw logic out the window and believe that Cersei is this powerful and astute ruler.    

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2 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Cersei cannot be trusted under any circumstances, neither can the Iron Born (Euron's Thralls now) Better to consolidate power behind you rather than leave an enemy at your back that you know wants you dead.

for dany, the dragonpit will go either one of two ways:

-cersei refuses, dany kills her

-cersei agrees, dany gets a bigger army

as Dragon in the North says, its' a win-win for dany either way. either she takes out cersei or gets cersei's army. 

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22 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Dany has a very bitter sense of justice. We have seen that in s3,s4 and s5.....she has roadted people for less than what Cersei did. Oh and in s6 with the dothrakis for insulting her and treating her as an inferior or a prostitute.

but Cersei is just Cersei:rolleyes: I can not believe that some people see that as normal continuity. At least many people do agree with this! Kg leaks are unbelievable!

Yeah continuity and consistency are not a concern to D&D. For that matter logic or character development are not important either. Case in point: in S6, they have Areo, a 250 or something pound man, being stabbed once in the back and immediately falling dead, whereas Arya, a 90 pound girl, gets repeatedly stabbed in the gut, and then voila days later with some soup and stiching up by an actress (whose only experience in medicine is that she has previously stabbed and stiched up her lovers) is able to fly in the air like a gymnast.  

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13 minutes ago, teej6 said:

I disagree. Even in the show, the Tyrell army was needed to defeat Stannis. The Lannister army may have been claimed to be the largest on the show but they've fought the Starks and Stannis and one would assume their numbers would have been depleted after all the wars. And I'm pretty sure its implied several times on the show that Tywin needed the Tyrell's to hold KL, hence the reason he bend over backwards to accommodate them.

Tywin Lannister was proclaimed the savior of the city. Not Mace Tyrell. Not Loras Tyrell. Yes, the Lannisters lost men, but it doesn't specify how many. And Tywin accommodated the Tyrells because he needed their money, not their army.

 

16 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Treating with Cersei has a lot of issues or downside as you put it. She is known to be a conniving, traitorous murderer who will do anything for power. So why should Dany (who has been shown to unleash fire and blood for much less) have any incentive to treat with her? I don't think D&D have the skill to make this parley of sorts compelling. They'll just expect the viewers to forget everything they've seen so far and throw logic out the window and believe that Cersei is this powerful and astute ruler.    

Ramsay is also a conniving, traitorous murderer, but I didn't see anyone claim it was stupid for Jon to treat with him. What's Cersei going to do? They're meeting at a neutral location where all important parties will be present. It's mutually assured destruction. And Dany also wanted to try her Fire and Blood method against all the slaver ships before moving on to their cities, but Tyrion convinced her of a better way. Dany listens to her councilors.

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11 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

Tywin Lannister was proclaimed the savior of the city. Not Mace Tyrell. Not Loras Tyrell. Yes, the Lannisters lost men, but it doesn't specify how many. And Tywin accommodated the Tyrells because he needed their money, not their army.

 

Ramsay is also a conniving, traitorous murderer, but I didn't see anyone claim it was stupid for Jon to treat with him. What's Cersei going to do? They're meeting at a neutral location where all important parties will be present. It's mutually assured destruction. And Dany also wanted to try her Fire and Blood method against all the slaver ships before moving on to their cities, but Tyrion convinced her of a better way. Dany listens to her councilors.

Tywin Lannister was proclaimed the saviour of the city because he led the forces not Mace. The point is he needed the Tyrell army to defeat Stannis' forces. 

As for the Battle of the Bastards, several people (myself included) had major issues with it. There were plenty on this site mocking and complaining about Ramsay's plot armor and his brilliant military mind (which btw came out of nowhere). 

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1 hour ago, dsug said:

for dany, the dragonpit will go either one of two ways:

-cersei refuses, dany kills her

-cersei agrees, dany gets a bigger army

as Dragon in the North says, its' a win-win for dany either way. either she takes out cersei or gets cersei's army. 

Cersei cannot be trusted. An agreement with such a person is meaningless.

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4 hours ago, teej6 said:

Tywin Lannister was proclaimed the saviour of the city because he led the forces not Mace. The point is he needed the Tyrell army to defeat Stannis' forces. 

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree here. Personally, I think that Tywin could have beat Stannis without the Tyrell's assistance, but there's no evidence for or against.

 

4 hours ago, teej6 said:

As for the Battle of the Bastards, several people (myself included) had major issues with it. There were plenty on this site mocking and complaining about Ramsay's plot armor and his brilliant military mind (which btw came out of nowhere). 

I'm not speaking of the Battle of the Bastards as a whole, but only the part where Jon and Ramsay parley. I don't recall anyone complaining about that part specifically, and yet, it's no different from Dany parleying with Cersei.

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3 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Cersei cannot be trusted. An agreement with such a person is meaningless.

Treating with Cersei and agreeing to a temporary cease fire is not the same as trusting her. Besides, what can she possibly do to them?

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4 hours ago, Dragon in the North said:

Treating with Cersei and agreeing to a temporary cease fire is not the same as trusting her. Besides, what can she possibly do to them?

how could you trust her in a ceasefire if not trust her before. She is holding the capital of Westeros, the focal point of unity of Westeros. she is more harmful by holding it than taking the necessary losses in taking it.

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Can someone please fill me in on the nature of the debate as to whether it makes sense for Dany and Jon to try to cut a deal with Cersei? Specifically, the issue as I thought it had been presented in the leaks is that Jon convinces Dany that the biggest threat is the White Walkers. And no matter how unreliable Cersei might be in general, that if they can convince her of the nature of the threat (thus the need to bring back the wight), purely for self-preservation purposes, Cersei will help to defeat the White Walkers. Isn't that the thrust of the leaks? I thought so, but no one seems to be making this point but rather the debate seems to be focused on whether it makes sense to negotiate with someone who is not trustworthy--but that question seems to be more or less irrelevant under the circumstances. What am I missing in this debate?

Now the leaks also suggest that the Cersei is crazy enough that she thinks that the WW will defeat (or at least dramatically weaken) her political rivals (Dany and Jon) -- and then somehow Cersei thinks that the WW will not be a threat to her (there is where the logic somewhat falls apart, perhaps) and she will be the last woman standing. But that decision seems to stem from a combination of foolishness, recklessness and disconnection from reality -- not lack of trustworthiness. Cersei can be considered to be the least trustworthy person on the planet (and perhaps she is), but if she is convinced that the WW will destroy all humankind unless she teams up with Dany and Jon, logically, Dany and Jon should be able to "trust" her until the WW are defeated -- as her survival is as much at stake as everyone else's survival under these circumstances.

After the war against the WW, of course, Cersei could no longer be trusted, but much would have changed in each side's positions after a battle royale to defeat the WW that if the human side were to win, Dany and Jon could decide how to deal with Cersei at that point, assuming that at that point they were in a position to try to do so. But the biggest and most immediate threat that Dany and Jon are trying to resolve is the threat from the WW to turn every human being on the planet into a wight.

So to "trust" Cersei in this situation does not seem to me to require relying on her being trustworthy in the traditional sense. But rather only requires that she be sane and pragmatic enough to realize that all humankind needs to team up to survive. Thus why Dany and Jon believe that showing her the dangers by seeing a wight in action should be enough to get Cersei to devote her resources to defeating the WW. Cersei deciding to betray Dany and Jon is based in part on Cersei not being trustworthy--but that trait is not enough -- she also had to be stupid, reckless and crazy. Dany and Jon had no reason to know that she had those traits as well (at least not to such an extent).

So for those who think that Dany and Jon going to try to reach an agreement with Cersei makes no logical sense -- please explain what I am missing in my line of reasoning?

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Both Varys and Tyrion would know that Cersei will never deliver on any promise she makes to her enemies.  She was trying to destroy the Tyrell alliance from Day Two.  So, them convincing Dany to 'parlay' with Cersei is silly.  Secondly, the idea of her being powerful outside of KL, and commanding some mysteriously huge Lannister army that we haven't seen since seasons 1 & 2, is also highly unrealistic since she killed her uncle and cousin as well as presumably many other Lannister bannermen who would have been in the Sept, she is simply not someone that anyone outside of KL would obey or follow. 

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51 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Can someone please fill me in on the nature of the debate as to whether it makes sense for Dany and Jon to try to cut a deal with Cersei? Specifically, the issue as I thought it had been presented in the leaks is that Jon convinces Dany that the biggest threat is the White Walkers. And no matter how unreliable Cersei might be in general, that if they can convince her of the nature of the threat (thus the need to bring back the wight), purely for self-preservation purposes, Cersei will help to defeat the White Walkers. Isn't that the thrust of the leaks? I thought so, but no one seems to be making this point but rather the debate seems to be focused on whether it makes sense to negotiate with someone who is not trustworthy--but that question seems to be more or less irrelevant under the circumstances. What am I missing in this debate?

Now the leaks also suggest that the Cersei is crazy enough that she thinks that the WW will defeat (or at least dramatically weaken) her political rivals (Dany and Jon) -- and then somehow Cersei thinks that the WW will not be a threat to her (there is where the logic somewhat falls apart, perhaps) and she will be the last woman standing. But that decision seems to stem from a combination of foolishness, recklessness and disconnection from reality -- not lack of trustworthiness. Cersei can be considered to be the least trustworthy person on the planet (and perhaps she is), but if she is convinced that the WW will destroy all humankind unless she teams up with Dany and Jon, logically, Dany and Jon should be able to "trust" her until the WW are defeated -- as her survival is as much at stake as everyone else's survival under these circumstances.

After the war against the WW, of course, Cersei could no longer be trusted, but much would have changed in each side's positions after a battle royale to defeat the WW that if the human side were to win, Dany and Jon could decide how to deal with Cersei at that point, assuming that at that point they were in a position to try to do so. But the biggest and most immediate threat that Dany and Jon are trying to resolve is the threat from the WW to turn every human being on the planet into a wight.

So to "trust" Cersei in this situation does not seem to me to require relying on her being trustworthy in the traditional sense. But rather only requires that she be sane and pragmatic enough to realize that all humankind needs to team up to survive. Thus why Dany and Jon believe that showing her the dangers by seeing a wight in action should be enough to get Cersei to devote her resources to defeating the WW. Cersei deciding to betray Dany and Jon is based in part on Cersei not being trustworthy--but that trait is not enough -- she also had to be stupid, reckless and crazy. Dany and Jon had no reason to know that she had those traits as well (at least not to such an extent).

So for those who think that Dany and Jon going to try to reach an agreement with Cersei makes no logical sense -- please explain what I am missing in my line of reasoning?

and a wight certainly would not convince her about the danger of the wws (in fact the leaks say she doesn't care about that) maybe bc she is accustomed to strange criatures like the Mountain.

so Jon and Dany show her w wight in order to convince her there is a huge army of wws that control the wights (different from a wight demo) when they know she is mentally unstable, just bc their army is not "as big" as it really is and need just a few more soldiers and the respect of the evil Queen. It would be more intelligent if they ignored her or conquwred KG. That is part of the debate, as well.

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13 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

and a wight certainly would not convince her about the danger of the wws (in fact the leaks say she doesn't care about that) maybe bc she is accustomed to strange criatures like the Mountain.

so Jon and Dany show her w wight in order to convince her there is a huge army of wws that control the wights (different from a wight demo) when they know she is mentally unstable, just bc their army is not "as big" as it really is and need just a few more soldiers and the respect of the evil Queen. It would be more intelligent if they ignored her or conquwred KG. That is part of the debate, as well.

I remain confused. How do Dany and Jon -- and Tyrion, who obviously knows Cersei well -- know that she is so unbalanced mentally that she would risk the death of all humankind just to oppose her human enemies? And Jon and Dany cannot divert resources to conquering KL because Dany and Jon understand that such a victory would be worthless if the WW are allowed to advance against a now weakened (as a result of the war to conquer KL) human army. Apparently Tyrion advises that most of the people who would die in an assault on KL would be innocent civilians in any event, so such an attack would not really be advisable -- and again, would simply waste resources needed for the battle against the WW.

I understand that the wight demonstration does not convince Cersei. But Dany, Jon and Tyrion have reason to believe that it would. They believe that they need Cersei's support in that war -- and most rational (even if ruthless and untrustworthy) leaders in Cersei's position would recognize the need to ensure the survival of humankind against the bigger enemy before going after human enemies.

Basically, Dany, Jon and Tyrion know that she is ruthless, petty and perhaps even "evil" in some sense (whatever that term really means in this world). But I don't think that they know that she is so stupid and reckless that she would risk the survival of all humankind to try to get an advantage over Dany and Jon. Or at a minimum, this calculation is worth the risk. And in fact, if she "betrays" them by not sending troops (as appears to be Cersei's plan), Dany and Jon really are no worse off than if they merely ignored Cersei.

So trying to get the support of the Lannister army by convincing Cersei of the threat from the WW has the potential for big benefit (if they win her support) with no real downside (as her failing to carry out her promise really ends up being no different in terms of the war against the WW than it would be if they simply ignored her and took their armies North without her support). Where is the downside in trying to get Cersei's support?

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3 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

how could you trust her in a ceasefire if not trust her before. She is holding the capital of Westeros, the focal point of unity of Westeros. she is more harmful by holding it than taking the necessary losses in taking it.

How will holding the capital harm their White Walker mission?

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1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

Both Varys and Tyrion would know that Cersei will never deliver on any promise she makes to her enemies.  She was trying to destroy the Tyrell alliance from Day Two.  So, them convincing Dany to 'parlay' with Cersei is silly.  Secondly, the idea of her being powerful outside of KL, and commanding some mysteriously huge Lannister army that we haven't seen since seasons 1 & 2, is also highly unrealistic since she killed her uncle and cousin as well as presumably many other Lannister bannermen who would have been in the Sept, she is simply not someone that anyone outside of KL would obey or follow. 

Cersei didn't blow up the Sept of Baelor for shits and giggles. She did it for her own survival. Uniting forces to fight the White Walkers will be know different, and Tyrion and Varys will count on Cersei's survival instinct to lead her into doing the sensible thing. As I've said before, there is no downside. The only argument I've seen to this is that Cersei will say no and that it will be a waste of time, and it very well could be. But they would be foolish not to even try.

As for the Lannister army, we saw a big ass one at the Siege of Riverrun. The reason we haven't seen a lot of it, though, is because the Lannisters really haven't been in that many battles since season 2.

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Just now, Dragon in the North said:

How will holding the capital harm their White Walker mission?

Well, it appears from the leaks that their mission to get a wight for Cersei, so they can get her "support" which they should all know will never come..... Hello, Varys and Tyrion watched her all her life....lost them 1/3 of Dany's WMD dragon force, as well as other important players...that's a high price to pay for the alliance of someone who everyone should know will NEVER follow through, and who would always, always see the WW as a means to destroy her enemies.  It's not so much refusing to attack KL, as it is treating Cersei like she's a legitimate ruler, a powerful ruler, and having an expectation she would work with them against the WW instead of stand back in KL and let the WW kill everyone in the North and the Vale and the Riverlands...with a delusional belief she will figure out how to defeat them when the time comes.

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1 minute ago, Dragon in the North said:

Cersei didn't blow up the Sept of Baelor for shits and giggles. She did it for her own survival. Uniting forces to fight the White Walkers will be know different, and Tyrion and Varys will count on Cersei's survival instinct to lead her into doing the sensible thing. As I've said before, there is no downside. The only argument I've seen to this is that Cersei will say no and that it will be a waste of time, and it very well could be. But they would be foolish not to even try.

As for the Lannister army, we saw a big ass one at the Siege of Riverrun. The reason we haven't seen a lot of it, though, is because the Lannisters really haven't been in that many battles since season 2.

She has never been sensible.  Never.  She let Joff run wild and start a war.  She tried to destroy the Tyrell alliance from the very beginning.  Then she re armed the Faith.  She's a short term thinker who never sees the big picture as both her brother and Varys already know, so believing she would unite with Dany and Jon to fight the WW is dumb, totally dumb.

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Just now, Cas Stark said:

She has never been sensible.  Never.  She let Joff run wild and start a war.  She tried to destroy the Tyrell alliance from the very beginning.  Then she re armed the Faith.  She's a short term thinker who never sees the big picture as both her brother and Varys already know, so believing she would unite with Dany and Jon to fight the WW is dumb, totally dumb.

And yet, there is no downside to trying. Absolutely none. If she says no, as they believe, things will proceed as schedule. But if she actually agrees, then they add the Lannister army to their ranks and increase their chances of success.

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1 minute ago, Dragon in the North said:

And yet, there is no downside to trying. Absolutely none. If she says no, as they believe, things will proceed as schedule. But if she actually agrees, then they add the Lannister army to their ranks and increase their chances of success.

If the leaks are to be believed they lose a dragon to the WW in their quest to get Cersei's help.  That's a very, very bad outcome.  They would have been better off to say 'fuck it, bitch' release your army or we're burning KL to the ground, and doing it.  They need the dragons more than any amount of soldiers.

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5 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

And yet, there is no downside to trying. Absolutely none. If she says no, as they believe, things will proceed as schedule. But if she actually agrees, then they add the Lannister army to their ranks and increase their chances of success.

Losing a dragon, valuable members/Lts of your army, almost losing Jon and various amounts of foot soldiers says otherwise.

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