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Speculations, news, theories for season 7. (includes leaks )

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3 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

How will holding the capital harm their White Walker mission?

:agree:Or to make the same point a slightly different way, why would Dany and Jon believe that spending time and resources on taking KL is more important or take precedence over using all of their resources to fight against the WW (with our without the support of Cersei and the Lannister army)? All humankind is at risk of dying if the WW are not defeated. I don't see how Dany and Jon would see it as making any sense to waste any meaningful resources on any mission other than the War for the Dawn 2.0.

 

2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Well, it appears from the leaks that their mission to get a wight for Cersei, so they can get her "support" which they should all know will never come..... Hello, Varys and Tyrion watched her all her life....lost them 1/3 of Dany's WMD dragon force, as well as other important players...that's a high price to pay for the alliance of someone who everyone should know will NEVER follow through, and who would always, always see the WW as a means to destroy her enemies.  It's not so much refusing to attack KL, as it is treating Cersei like she's a legitimate ruler, a powerful ruler, and having an expectation she would work with them against the WW instead of stand back in KL and let the WW kill everyone in the North and the Vale and the Riverlands...with a delusional belief she will figure out how to defeat them when the time comes.

OK, now we are getting somewhere. Finally a well-reasoned answer to the question of what Dany and Jon had to lose by trying to get Cersei's support (i.e., the losses they suffered in the wight hunt). But while a reasonable argument, I still disagree with your conclusion.

In retrospect, obviously the losses were high and the benefit nil (although Dany and Jon do not know that yet as they seem to come to believe Cersei will aid them even though apparently she will not). But such calculated risks are often taken if the potential benefit is strong enough (here the support of the Lannister army in the war against the WW). Only if Dany and Jon had no reasonable belief that Cersei would aid them if convinced of the true danger is the risk not worth taking (and they had no way to know they would lose a dragon in the effort). As noted by DitN, Cersei generally can be relied upon to do what is critical to her survival, so Dany and Jon had reason to believe that if convinced of the true danger, Cersei would come to their aid. 

The fact that the gamble failed does not make the gamble foolish or illogical. Some risks are worth taking, and while Dany and Jon clearly underestimated the price to be paid and overestimated their ability to convince Cersei of the true danger, such mistakes in judgment are commonplace in such situations and certainly not illogical.

Just now, The Bear Who Knocks said:

Losing a dragon, valuable members/Lts of your army, almost losing Jon and various amounts of foot soldiers says otherwise.

Unfair. You are analyzing only after the fact. Dany and Jon had to make the decision before knowing the extent of the losses they would likely suffer and the potential benefit to be had. Sure, they miscalculated. Miscalculations happen in war all the time by good generals. But just because they miscalculated, their actions were still a reasonable alternative given the extent of the potential benefit.

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Don't the leaks also say she roasts Tarly?  One of the best military strategists in Westeros.  Another miscalculation I guess, LOL.  It's going to be amazing with the level of stupidity shown by the major players that will somehow manage to defeat the white walkers.

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26 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I remain confused. How do Dany and Jon -- and Tyrion, who obviously knows Cersei well -- know that she is so unbalanced mentally that she would risk the death of all humankind just to oppose her human enemies? And Jon and Dany cannot divert resources to conquering KL because Dany and Jon understand that such a victory would be worthless if the WW are allowed to advance against a now weakened (as a result of the war to conquer KL) human army. Apparently Tyrion advises that most of the people who would die in an assault on KL would be innocent civilians in any event, so such an attack would not really be advisable -- and again, would simply waste resources needed for the battle against the WW.

I understand that the wight demonstration does not convince Cersei. But Dany, Jon and Tyrion have reason to believe that it would. They believe that they need Cersei's support in that war -- and most rational (even if ruthless and untrustworthy) leaders in Cersei's position would recognize the need to ensure the survival of humankind against the bigger enemy before going after human enemies.

Basically, Dany, Jon and Tyrion know that she is ruthless, petty and perhaps even "evil" in some sense (whatever that term really means in this world). But I don't think that they know that she is so stupid and reckless that she would risk the survival of all humankind to try to get an advantage over Dany and Jon. Or at a minimum, this calculation is worth the risk. And in fact, if she "betrays" them by not sending troops (as appears to be Cersei's plan), Dany and Jon really are no worse off than if they merely ignored Cersei.

So trying to get the support of the Lannister army by convincing Cersei of the threat from the WW has the potential for big benefit (if they win her support) with no real downside (as her failing to carry out her promise really ends up being no different in terms of the war against the WW than it would be if they simply ignored her and took their armies North without her support). Where is the downside in trying to get Cersei's support?

One of the biggest problem with the big plot of s7 (wight) is that it makes no sense since the beginning.

First of all, they think a wight is proof of the WW invasion which is not. They think it is, but it just doesn't. (first hole plot). They should not be as dumb.

Secondly, the mission is extremely risky but they agree on it's worth it (thinking a wight will convince Cersei). (second hole plot, related to the first one).

Moreover, they must know about the Mountain, who has been during a season in KG, and Varys should know that, but, eventhough they decide Cersei will be convinced. Even if The Mountain didn't exist, an ordinary person would not be convinced about a massive WW invasion bc of a wight, but with The Mountain there, it is like a joke.

Then, there is the fact that Dany could perfectly beat Cersei and sit on the throne and people and the armies of KG should be happier to be with her (the Queen who rescued them from Cersei) than fighting for Cersei. Once they know they have to fight against the WWs, then maybe they would not like it, though.

Last point, they know the incident of the Sept. A person like Cersei is just a woman not to be trusted AT ALL. Furthermore, she achieved to just burn a Sept, and not all KG, so she clearly knows how to use wildfire. She could have prepared a trap for them in the DragonPit.

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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5 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Don't the leaks also say she roasts Tarly?  One of the best military strategists in Westeros.  Another miscalculation I guess, LOL.  It's going to be amazing with the level of stupidity shown by the major players that will somehow manage to defeat the white walkers.

Yeah who was allied with and fights for Cersei in the same season 

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I will try to take your points one at a time.

2 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

One of the biggest problem with the big plot of s7 (wight) is that it makes no sense since the beginning.

First of all, they think a wight is proof of the WW invasion which is not. They think it is, but it just doesn't. (first hole plot). They should not be as dumb.

Here is where I think we have the biggest source of disagreement. The evidence is not just the existence of the wight. The evidence is their personal testimony. They are telling Cersei what they saw. What they saw is a bit hard to believe so the wight is the best evidence to back up their claims. But the wight in and of itself is not intended to be the "proof" of anything alone. The wight is supporting evidence to back up their claims that Jon as seen the WW and their wight army of dead people advancing against Westeros. While the wight is not absolute proof, it is strong evidence in support of this report. And why would Jon lie about it in any event. So based on Jon's testimony (and presumably others) with the existence of the wight (to prove that such an army of the dead is possible), Dany and Jon could reasonably believe that Cersei would be convinced of the true danger.

6 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Secondly, the mission is extremely risky but they agree on it's worth it (thinking a wight will convince Cersei). (second hole plot, related to the first one).

 

This point is not really any different than your first point. As I explained, the belief that the wight -- together with personal testimony and the rationale that Jon would have no reason to lie to Cersei (and I don't think Cersei believes Jon is lying) -- is enough to convince Cersei of the danger. Once that conclusion is made, then the mission is "worth it" as it gives the supporting evidence to Jon's testimony to try to convince Cersei of the true danger and secure the Lannister army.

8 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Moreover, they must know about the Mountain, who has been during a season in KG, and Varys should know that, but, eventhough they decide Cersei will be convinced. Even if The Mountain didn't exist, an ordinary person would not be convinced about a massive WW invasion bc of a wight, but with The Mountain there, it is like a joke.

They might know of the Mountain or they might not (not clear it is common knowledge that the Mountain is Gregor brought back from the dead). But, so what? So Cersei already knows of the possibility of the dead being brought back to life. That fact alone is not sufficient to prove to Cersei that someone other than her maester can perform such a feat. And the wight is not quite the same as Mountain, who seem to be more "human" than the wight. Mountain rapes the Septa -- I don't think a wight would be capable of anything quite so human. But even if a wight could -- the point is that the wight still serves as important corroborating evidence.

13 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Then, there is the fact that Dany could perfectly beat Cersei and sit on the throne and people and the armies of KG should be happier to be with her (the Queen who rescued them from Cersei) than fighting for Cersei. Once they know they have to fight against the WWs, then maybe they would not like it, though.

Dany could not defeat Cersei without losses. And Dany does not really have the time to waste on such a mission when the WW are advancing and are the bigger threat. Such a plan might be advisable if conquering KL were Dany's primary goal. But at this point, defeating the WW has taken precedence. So after defeating Cersei, weakening both side's forces, how can Dany be sure that the Lannister army will "bend the knee" and help in the war against the WW. They more likely will just retreat to the westerlands. You suggest that the losses to get the wight were high -- but the losses in a war against Cersei likely would be much higher with less likelihood of a payoff. Even if such a calculation might be wrong, under the circumstances it would not be unreasonable.

17 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Last point, they know the incident of the Sept. A person like Cersei is just a woman to be trusted AT ALL. Furthermore, she achieved to just burn a Sept, and not all KG, so she clearly knows how to use wildfire. She could have prepared a trap for them in the DragonPit.

Perhaps, but I think Dany and Jon would have had plans to deal with that possibility. I think we need to see how it plays out on screen to see whether such a risk was real or not.

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13 minutes ago, The Bear Who Knocks said:

Yeah who was allied with and fights for Cersei in the same season 

Of course everyone knows that Cersei will betray allies. The point of the wight-hunt is to got corroboration to convince Cersei that a threat to all humankind exists. Even a ruthless and untrustworthy person generally can be relied upon to team up to defeat the bigger common threat before going after her one-time allies. I doubt that Dany and Jon thought Cersei could be trusted once the WW are defeated -- but if the WW are not defeated then nothing else matters. So dealing with Cersei would have to wait -- and getting support from her could have significant benefits.

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30 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

If the leaks are to be believed they lose a dragon to the WW in their quest to get Cersei's help.  That's a very, very bad outcome.  They would have been better off to say 'fuck it, bitch' release your army or we're burning KL to the ground, and doing it.  They need the dragons more than any amount of soldiers.

 

28 minutes ago, The Bear Who Knocks said:

Losing a dragon, valuable members/Lts of your army, almost losing Jon and various amounts of foot soldiers says otherwise.

They parley with Cersei after they've already lost the dragon. What's the downside for parleying with Cersei after the worst had already happened? And it's my understanding that the wight hunt isn't only for Cersei, it's for all of Westeros. They need to convince the Lannisters, Tullys, the Reach lords, the Dornish lords, and the Greyjoys of the White Walker's existence. 

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@Meera of Tarth what would be satisfactory evidence of the White Walkers, in your opinion? Because if a fucking White Walker isn't proof that White Walkers exist, i don't know what is. 

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2 minutes ago, dsug said:

@Meera of Tarth what would be satisfactory evidence of the White Walkers, in your opinion? Because if a fucking White Walker isn't proof that White Walkers exist, i don't know what is. 

Just to be clear -- a wight is not a White Walker. Dany and Jon bring back a wight -- an "undead" person under the thrall of the While Walkers. The wight is intended as corroboration of the existence of the WW invasion, but Dany and Jon do not attempt to capture an actual WW. Nevertheless, I agree that Dany and Jon brought back the best evidence they reasonably believed they could get.

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30 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

 

They parley with Cersei after they've already lost the dragon. What's the downside for parleying with Cersei after the worst had already happened? And it's my understanding that the wight hunt isn't only for Cersei, it's for all of Westeros. They need to convince the Lannisters, Tullys, the Reach lords, the Dornish lords, and the Greyjoys of the White Walker's existence. 

They lost the dragon attempting to get 'proof' for Cersei, I hope she laughs in their faces, they already proved her calculation was correct, in their desire to get her "support" Dany loses 33% of her best weapon. 

The Dornish lords are already fighting for Dany. Tullys are a non factor, I guess Jon will bend the knee and beg the Freys for their army too, neat.  Again, Euron Greyjoy is a nut job, anyone thinking he can be trusted for more than 10 seconds as an ally is going to deserve the knife they get in their back.  Tyrells allegedly still had an army, but apparently they defect not to Dany, but Cersei, more hilarity.

But, I'm willing to say that maybe we book readers have had it all wrong, and Cersei is going to beat the prophecy in the end, and so she might sit the IT at the end of the series, that would be a twist, and it would certainly explain the changes to her and Jamie's story in the show.

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1 hour ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I will try to take your points one at a time.

Here is where I think we have the biggest source of disagreement. The evidence is not just the existence of the wight. The evidence is their personal testimony. They are telling Cersei what they saw. What they saw is a bit hard to believe so the wight is the best evidence to back up their claims. But the wight in and of itself is not intended to be the "proof" of anything alone. The wight is supporting evidence to back up their claims that Jon as seen the WW and their wight army of dead people advancing against Westeros. While the wight is not absolute proof, it is strong evidence in support of this report. And why would Jon lie about it in any event. So based on Jon's testimony (and presumably others) with the existence of the wight (to prove that such an army of the dead is possible), Dany and Jon could reasonably believe that Cersei would be convinced of the true danger.

This point is not really any different than your first point. As I explained, the belief that the wight -- together with personal testimony and the rationale that Jon would have no reason to lie to Cersei (and I don't think Cersei believes Jon is lying) -- is enough to convince Cersei of the danger. Once that conclusion is made, then the mission is "worth it" as it gives the supporting evidence to Jon's testimony to try to convince Cersei of the true danger and secure the Lannister army.

They might know of the Mountain or they might not (not clear it is common knowledge that the Mountain is Gregor brought back from the dead). But, so what? So Cersei already knows of the possibility of the dead being brought back to life. That fact alone is not sufficient to prove to Cersei that someone other than her maester can perform such a feat. And the wight is not quite the same as Mountain, who seem to be more "human" than the wight. Mountain rapes the Septa -- I don't think a wight would be capable of anything quite so human. But even if a wight could -- the point is that the wight still serves as important corroborating evidence.

Dany could not defeat Cersei without losses. And Dany does not really have the time to waste on such a mission when the WW are advancing and are the bigger threat. Such a plan might be advisable if conquering KL were Dany's primary goal. But at this point, defeating the WW has taken precedence. So after defeating Cersei, weakening both side's forces, how can Dany be sure that the Lannister army will "bend the knee" and help in the war against the WW. They more likely will just retreat to the westerlands. You suggest that the losses to get the wight were high -- but the losses in a war against Cersei likely would be much higher with less likelihood of a payoff. Even if such a calculation might be wrong, under the circumstances it would not be unreasonable.

Perhaps, but I think Dany and Jon would have had plans to deal with that possibility. I think we need to see how it plays out on screen to see whether such a risk was real or not.

I agree on that they bring the wight to prove their story but when making a decision one have to count the pros and cons, and this counts thr fact they lose important fighters in their mission, a dragon and Jon gets injured. They clearly didn't think rationally enough.

then Cersei could believe in them bit thr clear fact is that she knows who they are and that thr most reasonable thing is that they want to conquer her kingdom. She could think they are inventing all those things about the wws in order to create some distraction.

as for the Mountain they might not know but I believe Varys should be informed since he has a web of spies in the two continents and a lot of resources.

the most sensible thing would have been probably to ignore her as I pointed out also, in case they fear the Lannister Army is so powerful (which is not compared to them anyway).

 

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Once again, I will try a point at a time.

26 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I agree on that they bring the wight to prove their story but when making a decision one have to count the pros and cons, and this counts thr fact they lose important fighters in their mission, a dragon and Jon gets injured. They clearly didn't think rationally enough.

Unfair analysis. The pros and cons can only be evaluated from what they would have know before the mission -- not based on the outcome of the mission. Before the mission, they would not know they would suffer such serious losses. Capturing a wight would necessarily entail the NK throwing a spear at Viserion and killing him. That was really bad luck -- not an obvious con to the mission. Given what they knew, it probably was a close call whether the pros outweighed the cons. But presumably trying to get the Lannister army on their side would have two benefits -- increasing the forces against the WW and avoiding the risk of a two-front war if the Lannister army tried to re-take the North.

 

29 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

then Cersei could believe in them bit thr clear fact is that she knows who they are and that thr most reasonable thing is that they want to conquer her kingdom. She could think they are inventing all those things about the wws in order to create some distraction.

I am not sure I follow this point. Cersei might think that -- but that is why the wight was corroborating evidence. And in fact, it appears that she does not end up thinking that the demonstration was merely a ploy to take over Westeros. Rather, she seems to think that let her enemies (Dany and Jon) fight against other potential enemies (WWs) in the foolish belief that the two sides will destroy each other and leave her to pick up the pieces. Given the nature of the WW threat, Dany and Jon would not think that Cersei would come to that decision. She might (and obviously did), but such a course of action is so reckless, that Dany and Jon would have assumed Cersei's desire for self-preservation would have limited the likelihood of such a decision on her part. Again, they would be wrong, but the analysis needs to be considered before knowing the outcome -- and before the outcome, such a decision seemed a low probability. And, again, I think they believed that the wight would convince Cersei that the stories were not just a ploy to trick her out of KL.

34 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

as for the Mountain they might not know but I believe Varys should be informed since he has a web of spies in the two continents and a lot of resources.

 Even if they knew about the Mountain, so what? So Cersei knows that undead people are possible. Cersei also knows they are not easy to produce. And the wights really are of a different nature than the Mountain. So even if Dany and Jon know about Mountain (not sure they do, but even if they do), that does not eliminate the fact that the wight still corroborates their story.

36 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

the most sensible thing would have been probably to ignore her as I pointed out also, in case they fear the Lannister Army is so powerful (which is not compared to them anyway).

As I noted above, probably a close call -- but not an unreasonable risk given the pro and cons that were knowable before the fact. As I noted above, two benefits would be additional fighters and avoiding risk of a two-front war. Given that potential benefit and the lack of reason to believe that a dragon would be killed by a WW, not an unreasonable risk. Not unreasonable to take the other course (ignoring Cersei), but the potential benefit was enough to entice them to take the risk.

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2 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Once again, I will try a point at a time.

Unfair analysis. The pros and cons can only be evaluated from what they would have know before the mission -- not based on the outcome of the mission. Before the mission, they would not know they would suffer such serious losses. Capturing a wight would necessarily entail the NK throwing a spear at Viserion and killing him. That was really bad luck -- not an obvious con to the mission. Given what they knew, it probably was a close call whether the pros outweighed the cons. But presumably trying to get the Lannister army on their side would have two benefits -- increasing the forces against the WW and avoiding the risk of a two-front war if the Lannister army tried to re-take the North.

 

I am not sure I follow this point. Cersei might think that -- but that is why the wight was corroborating evidence. And in fact, it appears that she does not end up thinking that the demonstration was merely a ploy to take over Westeros. Rather, she seems to think that let her enemies (Dany and Jon) fight against other potential enemies (WWs) in the foolish belief that the two sides will destroy each other and leave her to pick up the pieces. Given the nature of the WW threat, Dany and Jon would not think that Cersei would come to that decision. She might (and obviously did), but such a course of action is so reckless, that Dany and Jon would have assumed Cersei's desire for self-preservation would have limited the likelihood of such a decision on her part. Again, they would be wrong, but the analysis needs to be considered before knowing the outcome -- and before the outcome, such a decision seemed a low probability. And, again, I think they believed that the wight would convince Cersei that the stories were not just a ploy to trick her out of KL.

 Even if they knew about the Mountain, so what? So Cersei knows that undead people are possible. Cersei also knows they are not easy to produce. And the wights really are of a different nature than the Mountain. So even if Dany and Jon know about Mountain (not sure they do, but even if they do), that does not eliminate the fact that the wight still corroborates their story.

As I noted above, probably a close call -- but not an unreasonable risk given the pro and cons that were knowable before the fact. As I noted above, two benefits would be additional fighters and avoiding risk of a two-front war. Given that potential benefit and the lack of reason to believe that a dragon would be killed by a WW, not an unreasonable risk. Not unreasonable to take the other course (ignoring Cersei), but the potential benefit was enough to entice them to take the risk.

sorry but I can not agree on that the reasonable thing is to think that the wight mission (especially) plus the wight exhibition it's the best decision to confront, brcause they need more men.

as I said if they think they would lose a lot of men while defeating Cersei they can always decide to ignore her and not conquer the city.

the wight hunt decision, in my humble opinion, is the worst leak of the season. We know that Jon, KITN, Jorah who is Dany's counselour and friend, Gendry (probably a Lord of SL at the time of the wight hunt given some leaks) and Davos Hand of the King go to hunt a wight in the lands of always winter where there is an army of Wws and thousands of wights and just one Valyrian steel sword.

if they think this is a wise plot it's only in their dreams and Jon is not as  good commander as he thinks he is. Then the Hound Tormund Beric and Thoros go with them too (I don't know the order maybe one of thrm comes with Jon as well I don't remember it correctly). So basically important leaders or fighters with only one sword in the lands of always winter just to hunt a wight believing everything will be ok! And in case it convinces Cersei. Sorry but this is too much of a bad arc imho. jon knows from Hardhome what they are capable of but ignores the danger and puts at risk himself and his allies.

however you made a good point with The Mountain. While I completely believe that Varys should know about it, Cersei might not believr creating strange creatures is as easy. (that doesn't imply she should fear it or thibk that wws do exist, that there are thousands of them (wws, wights...) and wws have the magic power to control the wights).

in fact people from KG don't believe in magic but in science (Cersei thinks the Mountain has been created with science, maybe a touch of magic? But that is very different to believe in wws and their powers).

 

if I was Cersei I would not believe in them. Or, at least, not believe in that there are thousands of them. Why? Because if there are actually thousands, it would not have been as "easy" to hunt a wight with one sword and 4/8men. And if she beieved it is true or part true she would think Jon and his friends are not very intelligent (maybe brave but not very intelligent) because Cersei would have never hunted a wight for Jon even if she knew it was necessary and she would have totally attacked kingslanding with their army:

Dothrakis

the Reach

unsullied army

dragons

Dorne

a lot of ships from Yara and Theon

the North

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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The wight hunt is doomed (and a tactical error) but Jon and Dany have no way of knowing

 Or do they?

Jon has Sansa. Who would have warned him. Its clear from the spoilers that he doesnt really listen to her. He rides South and invites into his Kings council one Stark betrayer after another. 

Yes i know. Time is of the essence. 

But then why do Jon and Dany go against instinct and instead of immediatly offing cersei, decide to humor her?

I am going to come right out and say it. Tyrions involvement does not bode well.  He is partial to his family.  It is on his advise that Jon and Dany will act. Advise from the brother the Queen openly loathes.  Jon and Dany will have no reason to doubt Tyrion. And they both have a mental "family gap" in their own experiences. They will do the best with what they have then and there. 

People seem to think Tyrions purpose is to connect the north and south (by a bonding journey shared by Jon and him in season 1 and Danys relliance on him as her Hand). I doubt that is the complete truth. The missing piece to this, once again, lies north: the key he had minimal issues with forcibly marrying. 

Jons biggest mistake next season wont be trusting dany or cersei or sansa etc. 

It will be trusting Tyrion. Bad advise. It happens. 

Edit* i am.filling in the blanks up top on Tyrions role. But is there even any doubt as to what his advise will.be? Cersei isnt just his mean sister. She is his bros girlfriend. In Danys council.Tyrions advise is the only one that will matter because he knows Cersei better than anyone else. So no way will.Dany go against her instincts (to burn) and the advise of her Hand (also ultimate insider). This is my reasoning. 

Edited by Lady Ren

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5 hours ago, Dragon in the North said:

How will holding the capital harm their White Walker mission?

A war sgainst the white walkers. Cannot leave her at your back.

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As usual, there are a lot of cries of "dumb!" and "plot hole!" when nobody has actually seen any of this and are basing it all on spoilers.  And people seem to have no problem adding their own details that didn't appear in the original leaks and deciding that they're "dumb!" "plot holes!" as well.  How can you claim something is a plot hole when you don't know the actual plot?

The alliance with Cersei might also be based more on "don't fight against us" than "fight with us". If Cersei is still an enemy she could decide to attack them while they're trying to fight the WWs. At least if they neutralise her with a "treaty" they don't have to worry about fighting a war on two fronts.

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The spoilers said that Cersei agreed to help. And as soon as her men rode off she confided to Jamie that she plans on betraying Jon and Dany. And taking the north. Right?

Also sneak attack is how the Lannister army rolls when it comes to the IT. 

She outplays them. Simple enough. It sucks. People want Jon to be "smarter". But he is not a conniving person. Not yet anyway.

I want a Sansa Cersei showdown in season 8. They are better matched. Especially if Sansa marries Robin.

The war of the five queens (minus one who "lost") continues. 

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11 hours ago, Dragon in the North said:

Cersei didn't blow up the Sept of Baelor for shits and giggles. She did it for her own survival.

BS.

She blew the Seppt up for vengeance, not survival. 

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She blew it up to prevent a trial by sparrow. It was only when she was denied a trial by combat that she decided to blow up the "courtroom " and all the judges because she knew she wouldn't win. That's survival.

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