Lord Friendzone

Speculations, news, theories for season 7. (includes leaks )

1,499 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, The Bear Who Knocks said:

When the hell did Robert ever order Tywin to send Gregor and Lorch to get rid of the targs? He was out of commission for awhile thanks to him saving Barristan, it was purely a Tywin thing to show he was "always" with the rebellion.

Tywin did it in Robert's name, and it was a very polarizing thing. Ned and Oberyn were outraged, for example.  But instead of decrying Tywin's actions, Robert married his daughter and let his son stay on the Kingsguard. I'm not saying Robert killed them himself, but I think at least some of the blood is on his hands, and the stain on his reputation. 

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6 hours ago, TheCasualObserver said:

The Lannister army has been loyal - but loyal to who? Tywin? Jaime? Cersei? Is it the person who spurs the loyalty, or total devotion to the Lannister cause no matter what? If Cersei is somehow still a power in seaosn 7 it seems to be the latter.

Back in season 2 Varys asked Tyrion his famous question about power. In the case of the Lannister army this seems to have been ignored. Cersei cannot offer money because the Lannisters are skint. She cannot offer religon because she destroyed the largest place of worship in Westeros. She can offer her name, but even that is tarnished - she's a woman in a patriarchal society who has been publicly paraded naked through the streets and committed an act of terrorism which killed her son's wife, a religious leader and her own uncle. Does none of that matter? They are still willing to fight and die simply because Cersei is a Lannister. Less a real army, more stormtroopers or orcs.

You forget the answer to Varys's question: Power resides where man believes it resides. If destroying all your enemies at once with a wildfire explosion doesn't give the impression of power, I'm not sure what does.

 

6 hours ago, TheCasualObserver said:

I wish the Starks could command such loyalty in their men.

Agreed 100%

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The Tarly army seems instrumental in sacking Highgarden, and Euron is the one who destroys the Martell/Greyjoy fleet and captures Yara and Ellaria, so her two biggest victories are kind of handed to her. 

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1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Thanks for the clarification. I suspected he didn't order it, but I don't know the story in all the details, and  being told otherwise I preferred not to mention it, since I only discuss the things I know from certain; and thus, I didn't address that sentence in particular the first time.

No problem.a lot of people pile on Robert but I find him as a tragic survivor of the rebellion. Thanks Cersei.

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20 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

No problem.a lot of people pile on Robert but I find him as a tragic survivor of the rebellion. Thanks Cersei.

ah....ok

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5 minutes ago, dsug said:

ah....ok

I think his and Westeros story would be very different if he had married another nobleman's daughter. Cersei was/is a plague of her own name and by extension, House Lannister with it.

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18 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

I think his and Westeros story would be very different if he had married another nobleman's daughter. Cersei was/is a plague of her own name and by extension, House Lannister with it.

Oh I agree Cersei basically single-handedly caused the war of the five kings. But Robert is no saint either. Lazy, drunk, completely incompetent. They're a match made in hell. 

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10 minutes ago, dsug said:

Oh I agree Cersei basically single-handedly caused the war of the five kings. But Robert is no saint either. Lazy, drunk, completely incompetent. They're a match made in hell. 

Robert was too good for her.

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7 hours ago, dsug said:

tywin lannister blatantly organized the Red Wedding, he was the only one who benefitted from the slaughter of Robb, Catelyn, and Talisa, and their thousands of soldiers. And he still had an army.

 Tywin Lannister and Robert Baratheron blatantly organized the slaughter of Elia, Aegon, and Rhaenys Martell, as they were the only ones who benefitted from their deaths. And they still had an army.

Robert Baratheon murdered the crown prince. He still had an army.

Aegon II and his mother clearly defied the wishes of King Viserys and usurped the throne from Rhaenyra. And they still had an army.

Aerys II murdered lords left and right, raped his wife, and was an all around terrible ruler. And he still had an army. 

So I ask you, what makes Cersei any different? 

You really need to check your facts (read the books). Robert did not "organize" the slaughter of Elia, Aegon, or Rhaenys Targaryen. Tywin presented the dead bodies of the children to Robert when he arrived in KL to prove that he was loyal. Robert had no hand in these murders. Did he fail to the punish the murderers? Yes, he did. Robert may have been a fool but he definitely did not murder those kids. And also, Robert did not murder Rhaegar, he defeated and killed him in battle fair and square. The definition of murder is premeditated unlawful killing of another. 

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1 hour ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Robert was too good for her.

Again, ah...ok

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57 minutes ago, teej6 said:

You really need to check your facts (read the books). Robert did not "organize" the slaughter of Elia, Aegon, or Rhaenys Targaryen. Tywin presented the dead bodies of the children to Robert when he arrived in KL to prove that he was loyal. Robert had no hand in these murders. Did he fail to the punish the murderers? Yes, he did. Robert may have been a fool but he definitely did not murder those kids. And also, Robert did not murder Rhaegar, he defeated and killed him in battle fair and square. The definition of murder is premeditated unlawful killing of another. 

I thought you were done responding to me? 

And no Robert did not kill those kids himself, but he took no action against it, and was glad it happened. Let's face it, Robert wanted those kids dead. You really think Robert "I'll kill every Targaryens I can get my hands on, even pregnant teenage girls" Baratheon would spare his arch nemesis's children and heirs? No, he was glad they were dead and rewarded Tywin for it. 

As for Robert and Rhaegar, yes, they were in combat, but killing someone is killing someone, no matter the nomenclature. I only brought that up in reference to those saying Cersei doing unsavory things should disqualify her from ruling, when rulers long before her had done the same. 

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10 minutes ago, dsug said:

I thought you were done responding to me? 

And no Robert did not kill those kids himself, but he took no action against it, and was glad it happened. Let's face it, Robert wanted those kids dead. You really think Robert "I'll kill every Targaryens I can get my hands on, even pregnant teenage girls" Baratheon would spare his arch nemesis's children and heirs? No, he was glad they were dead and rewarded Tywin for it. 

As for Robert and Rhaegar, yes, they were in combat, but killing someone is killing someone, no matter the nomenclature. I only brought that up in reference to those saying Cersei doing unsavory things should disqualify her from ruling, when rulers long before her had done the same. 

The Twincest Bastards Conspiracy and all the subsequent atrocities to protect it alone puts her in a class all to herself and it is a bit more than "unsavory". Hers is different from Rhaenyra's 3 Strong sons as she was the blood heir to the throne, not the wife of the King.

Edited by A Ghost of Someone

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5 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

The Twincest Bastards Conspiracy and all the subsequent atrocities to protect it alone puts her in a class all to herself and it is a bit more than "unsavory". Hers is different from Rhaenyra's 3 Strong sons as she was the blood heir to the throne, not the wife of the King.

Just the word I chose, man. 

You seem to really just hate Cersei, which is understandable, as she might be one of the worst things that ever happened to Westeros. But if you think her alcoholic, violent, rapist husband was "too good her," I really have no comment. 

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1 hour ago, dsug said:

Just the word I chose, man. 

You seem to really just hate Cersei, which is understandable, as she might be one of the worst things that ever happened to Westeros. But if you think her alcoholic, violent, rapist husband was "too good her," I really have no comment. 

She wanted the crown and title of Queen and sleeping with the King and producing true born children by him are part of the deal.

She had a trueborn heir on the way but her and Jaime made arrangments to abort it so that it cleared the way for filthy incest kids to steal its birthright.

She hit him too.

She is also and alcoholic.

As far as too good to her, yes, she deserves worse, like a Dothraki Khal (not Drogo) or maybe the Mountain as a husband. Robert Baratheon was her victim, not the other way around but we are free to disagree. For what she did, she deserved beheading.

 

Edited by A Ghost of Someone

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1 hour ago, dsug said:

I thought you were done responding to me? 

And no Robert did not kill those kids himself, but he took no action against it, and was glad it happened. Let's face it, Robert wanted those kids dead. You really think Robert "I'll kill every Targaryens I can get my hands on, even pregnant teenage girls" Baratheon would spare his arch nemesis's children and heirs? No, he was glad they were dead and rewarded Tywin for it. 

As for Robert and Rhaegar, yes, they were in combat, but killing someone is killing someone, no matter the nomenclature. I only brought that up in reference to those saying Cersei doing unsavory things should disqualify her from ruling, when rulers long before her had done the same. 

Yes, I know we are not going to agree on the sheer ludicrousy of the leaked S7 plot, but I can't help but respond when I see factual errors :P And no, condoning an act after the fact with no prior knowledge of the act does not make one guilty of the act itself. So no, Robert is not guilty of "blatantly organizing the slaughter" of Elia and her kids as you stated.The responsibility for that falls solely on Tywin. The Robert you see in GoT is not the Robert of old and no, I don't think he would have bloodied his hands with the murder of Elia and her children, especially with Ned and Jon Arryn around. As for Robert killing Rhaegar, you called it "murder", which it was not. He killed him in battle yes, but did not murder him. There's a difference between killing someone in combat and murdering someone. 

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11 hours ago, dsug said:

No, they don't. 

And you seem very certain that the people clap for her for "no apparent reason." Can I borrow your copy of season seven, since you've clearly already seen it in full? 

And what I can't understand is the constant trolling of the SHOW FORUM by people who hate the SHOW. If you hate it so much, go away. No one's keeping forcing you to be here. This site as a whole would be a whole lot more pleasant if people who hated the show and trashed other posters' "optimism" about it every chance they got. 

I have read the leaks which looks non-sensical.

We are here because we liked the show once and we still like the story Martin writes. We still watch it because we want to know what happens to our favourite characters. The Show is not above any criticism so don't expect this forum to become a pro-Show circlejerk. 

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24 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

She wanted the crown and title of Queen and sleeping with the King and producing true born children by him are part of the deal.

She had a trueborn heir on the way but her and Jaime made arrangments to abort it so that it cleared the way for filthy incest kids to steal its birthright.

She hit him too.

She is also and alcoholic.

As far as too good to her, yes, she deserves worse, like a Dothraki Khal (not Drogo) or maybe the Mountain as a husband. Robert Baratheon was her victim, not the other way around but we are free to disagree. For what she did, she deserved beheading.

 

And we only see one instance in the books where Robert hits her. Everything else (violence and rape) are accusations made by  Cersei herself, who we know lacks any sense of honesty or integrity. The woman is delusional and constantly lies to herself even and like other murdering tyrants, plays the victim.  

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9 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

She wanted the crown and title of Queen and sleeping with the King and producing true born children by him are part of the deal.

She had a trueborn heir on the way but her and Jaime made arrangments to abort it so that it cleared the way for filthy incest kids to steal its birthright.

She hit him too.

She is also and alcoholic.

As far as too good to her, yes, she deserves worse, like a Dothraki Khal (not Drogo) or maybe the Mountain as a husband. Robert Baratheon was her victim, not the other way around but we are free to disagree. For what she did, she deserved beheading.

 

 

8 hours ago, teej6 said:

And we only see one instance in the books where Robert hits her. Everything else (violence and rape) are accusations made by  Cersei herself, who we know lacks any sense of honesty or integrity. The woman is delusional and constantly lies to herself even and like other murdering tyrants, plays the victim.  

Ahhh....okay....

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9 hours ago, teej6 said:

Yes, I know we are not going to agree on the sheer ludicrousy of the leaked S7 plot, but I can't help but respond when I see factual errors :P And no, condoning an act after the fact with no prior knowledge of the act does not make one guilty of the act itself. So no, Robert is not guilty of "blatantly organizing the slaughter" of Elia and her kids as you stated.The responsibility for that falls solely on Tywin. The Robert you see in GoT is not the Robert of old and no, I don't think he would have bloodied his hands with the murder of Elia and her children, especially with Ned and Jon Arryn around. As for Robert killing Rhaegar, you called it "murder", which it was not. He killed him in battle yes, but did not murder him. There's a difference between killing someone in combat and murdering someone. 

Robert is guilt of making it ok. And yes, aGoT Robert would do the same. Have you forgotten his obsession with assassinating a pregnant, teenaged Daenerys? Ned talked him down on his death-bed, but because of her last name, Robert wanted her dead, and he would've wanted the same for Elia and her children. 

This convo is getting off track. My point was and still is that people doing terrible things to get the Throne is not unheard of, and that people in history who acted much like Cersei still had armies, because nameless soldiers might not be as loyal to dead people as you originally thought. 

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Why is it so difficult to just take the showrunners at their word?  This season is a showcase for Lena....it's all about Cersei.  Weiss said this.  Having watched GOT for many years, I know that the show is happy to sacrifice plot logic and cohesion to get to whatever dramatic point they want to reach.  This season, they want to reach it with Lena, they've said as much.  So the plot logic of her being powerful enough that Jon and Dany and their combined forces put their own lives at risk to make her an ally is unimportant to the showrunners....because their purpose is showcasing Cersei as queen.

 I still am now forced to wonder if Cersei will live to the end of the books and beat the prophecy, as that would explain much of the show's treatment of her and brother.  

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