On Jon Snow's ultimate fate

[The Lord of the Crossing]

Jon's ultimate fate?  Medium-rare inside and blackened on the outside. 

Jon will be the third treason in Dany's visions from the House of the Undying.  They will both learn of Jon's parentage and will become close but not in a romantic sense.  Love doesn't just come in the form of romance after all.  Jon will agree to have the wildlings bend the knee if Daenerys and her armies help push the White Walkers out of the north.  The nobility in the north would have fallen by this time and the wildlings will hold power in the north but they will not be strong enough to defend against the White Walkers. Daenerys and her armies will be successful in repelling the White Walkers and pushing them back to the other side of the wall.  However, Jon will refuse to make the wildlings bend the knee, he will not honor the deal,  and declare independence for the north because he loves the wildlings.  Daenerys will capture him and even though she cares for him (the fire to love), she will barbecue him for treason.  Which is how Dany executes traitors.  Jon might be able to warg Ghost and live out his second life as the white direwolf.  The last scene of the story will be Daenerys on Drogon, flying over a snow-covered Winterell, watching the white direwolf running free below. 

[Maxxine]

I've definitely see all the "king" clues for Jon. The issue i have with it is even with RLJ Jon is not a king. He is still a bastard (just someone else's bastard). So even if the Targ line continued after the Rebellion he wouldn't have any right to throne. He's not a long lost king he's a long lost prince's bastard. I just don't understand how all this is going to fit in the end. My favorite clue for Jon is when he can't sword fight against Joffrey bc bastards should fight princes (or something like that). Presumably a clue bc Joffrey is the actually the bastard & Jon is the prince. But Jon isn't a prince & wouldn't be even if Rhaegar had lived. 

[Roswell]

I don't see Jon ever ruling Westeros.  He fits in better with the wildlings.  Jon's a rule-breaker not a rule-maker.     I predict that Jon will succeed Mance Rayder as the eventual King-Beyond-the-Wall. 

[velo-knight]

5 hours ago, Maxxine said:

I've definitely see all the "king" clues for Jon. The issue i have with it is even with RLJ Jon is not a king. He is still a bastard (just someone else's bastard). So even if the Targ line continued after the Rebellion he wouldn't have any right to throne. He's not a long lost king he's a long lost prince's bastard. I just don't understand how all this is going to fit in the end. My favorite clue for Jon is when he can't sword fight against Joffrey bc bastards should fight princes (or something like that). Presumably a clue bc Joffrey is the actually the bastard & Jon is the prince. But Jon isn't a prince & wouldn't be even if Rhaegar had lived. 

Well, there's two ways to interpret it. Either Jon was somehow legitimate, in which case the king symbolism could simply be pointing out his technical status, with or without implying any real crown for him - or he isn't, and the symbolism indicates that he will be a king, nonetheless. King-beyond-the-wall, Night's King, KiTN, or even ruling all of Westeros. In this case, the symbolism isn't suggesting he's the "true king" because of his birth alone, but because he will be a true king and maybe the true king in the future. His royal lineage, plus Robb's legitimization, plus the eventual collapse of other credible challengers - that's where the well-known Henry Tudor parallels come in. All the destruction in the Wo5K and the second Dance eventually paves the way for Jon to emerge as king.

As for the Joffrey thing: don't forget, Joff isn't just a bastard, he's a bastard without a drop of blood of the current ruling house (and little to no blood of the previous one).

[Schwarze Sonne]

Well, GRRM said that ASOIAF will have a bittersweet ending.

GRRM considered LOTR to have bittersweet ending.

Things suck for the hobbits in LOTR even after Sauron's demise.

But Aragorn? That guy married the love of his life and ruled wisely for 300 years!

I bet Jon will end up in THAT kind of bittersweet ending, almost happy ending for him. Suck for everyone else though.

[chrisdaw]

Jon is the king by the Targaryen line and that's what the foreshadowing is about but no he'll never be king on the IT (he'll be KITN for a time). It's his lot to reject the crown for the realm's sake. He will conquer KL but the realm would not unite behind his kingship, many will see him as a bastard and others as a NW member, and uniting the realm to fight the Others will be his whole end goal, that's why he'll march on the IT. He will instead marry Arya to the IT, a more palatable course for the wider realm, and they'll march at her call.

But this isn't really the pinnacle decision of his arc. His arc ends when he prevents Dany from sacrificing his and her child, even though by then the evidence will be overwhelming that the sacrifice would wake the dragon and save the realm. He will choose the Stark way over the Targaryen. The dragon will none the less awaken with Dany's death and he will ride it, proving his decision correct.

And he'll probably die then.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 hour ago, Schwarze Sonne said:

Things suck for the hobbits in LOTR even after Sauron's demise

How?

1 hour ago, Schwarze Sonne said:

But Aragorn? That guy married the love of his life and ruled wisely for 300 years!

Being a King isn't necessary a good thing.

[Greywater-Watch]

What a surprise it would be if Jon Snow just stayed dead. GRRM loves to be unpredictable, However all people in this forum seem to take it as given that Jon Snow would be re-surrected or survive the mutiny in the last Jon-chapter in ADWD.

[Leticia Stark]

18 minutes ago, Greywater-Watch said:

What a surprise it would be if Jon Snow just stayed dead. GRRM loves to be unpredictable, However all people in this forum seem to take it as given that Jon Snow would be re-surrected or survive the mutiny in the last Jon-chapter in ADWD.

Probably because George said Jon would find out about his parentage.

[Greywater-Watch]

7 minutes ago, Leticia Stark said:

Probably because George said Jon would find out about his parentage.

Or did GRRM say, WE (the readers) would find out about it?

[Leticia Stark]

8 minutes ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Or did GRRM say, WE (the readers) would find out about it?

Both, the readers and Jon. 

> http://archive.is/agcXt

[Schwarze Sonne]

2 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

How?

Being a King isn't necessary a good thing.

 

Saruman came to mess with the hobbits and enslaving them until they got enough and kicked his ass later. Frodo left the Middle Earth. Sam and the rest have their hometown ruined. Well, things get better.

 

Seriously, the entire thread is all about Jon dying in his self-sacrifice without ever being king, and presumably those GoT players being in control (Sansa, Tyrion) while the heroes like Jon and Dany sort of died in the cold north because people think it'd be a bad story-telling if they live on to rule like the classics. And you said that being king isn't necessary a good thing?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 hour ago, Schwarze Sonne said:

Saruman came to mess with the hobbits and enslaving them until they got enough and kicked his ass later. Frodo left the Middle Earth. Sam and the rest have their hometown ruined. Well, things get better.

At I agree that it was difficult but from what I understood you meant that their life became worst but only Aragorn's life was better.

1 hour ago, Schwarze Sonne said:

Seriously, the entire thread is all about Jon dying in his self-sacrifice without ever being king, and presumably those GoT players being in control (Sansa, Tyrion) while the heroes like Jon and Dany sort of died in the cold north because people think it'd be a bad story-telling if they live on to rule like the classics. And you said that being king isn't necessary a good thing?

 What I meant is that I never understand why people believe that Aragorn being the King was a good thing for him. Personally the only good thing about Aragorn's life was the fact that he lived with his true love but he had passed through hell to earn the right to do it.

Also I do believe that being a King is a burden and not a privilege. 

 

[khal drogon]

5 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Being a King isn't necessary a good thing.

George's bittersweet ending is meant for the readers. He said his story would end in a bittersweet note not his characters will. So Jon would become the King but end up hating it might not be a bad ending for most of the readers. It is what most of his fans want so it doesn't seem to be a bad thing. Especially when most of other reader's favorite characters will probably be dead.

[IceFire125]

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Also I do believe that being a King is a burden and not a privilege. 

 

 

GRRM continued to have Jon (ignorantly, of course, since he has no reason to know now) deny his royal heritage.  He has Jon ran away from his duty because he loved his brother, Robb, only to have honor (the duty of his brothers of the NW) bring him back.  Even Ghost was against him running away from his duty.  I believe Ghost is a mark of the old gods (Bran III ADWD).  If Ghost is a mark/symbol of the old gods', it's clear that they have something for Jon to do by giving that mark/symbol to Jon.  In that Bran III chapter, GRRM even associate that mark by putting that very definition of that "every song must have its balance".

I believe Jon will continue to deny his royal heritage even though he has clear sight and knowledge of his true parentage.  I'm of the opinion he will have a very big identity crisis where he would not want to let go of his "Stark" (or Ned as his Father).  It will be until Ned's spirit finally confirming to Jon, that Jon will realized.  

Remember that Bran saw Ned being sad, talking about Jon.  And in the black cells, Ned's wish was to sit and talk with Jon again.  It will be at this moment that Ned will reveal that his sister, Lyanna was Jon's Mother and that his Father was the crown prince, Rhaegar Targaryen.  This will be the fulfillment of the final promise that Ned failed in his "living" life.  He will finally fulfilled it in his death.

“Your boy will be safe. I will find a wet nurse for him and he’ll be raised here at Castle Black (Winterfell) under my protection. He’ll learn to hunt and ride, to fight with sword and axe and bow. I’ll even see that he is taught to read and write.” Sam would like that. “And when he is old enough, he will learn the truth of who he is. He’ll be free to seek you out if that is what he wants.”

**Ned's promise fulfilled and failed to Lyanna.

Regarding Jon's kingship and his crowning.  If GRRM gave us many foreshadowing and clues, he will find a way that's satisfying for the readers to see it be fulfilled.

Because Jon's path has already be chosen from the very beginning...

No doubt the boy had made the mistake of thinking that the Night’s Watch was made up of men like his uncle. If so, Yoren and his companions were a rude awakening. Tyrion felt sorry for the boy. He had chosen a hard life … or perhaps he should say that a hard life had been chosen for him.

Jon himself declared it as such...

“I do not choose the road I ride.”

“No.” He could hear the defeat in her voice. “Sorry to be of trouble, m’lord. I only … they said the king keeps people safe, and I thought …” Despairing, she ran, Sam’s cloak flapping behind her like great black wings.

Jon watched her go, his joy in the morning’s brittle beauty gone. Damn her, he thought resentfully, and damn Sam twice for sending her to me. What did he think I could do for her? We’re here to fight wildlings, not save them.

**GRRM gave us an image that when Gilly ran from Jon, Sam's cloak flap like great black wings.  If we go with GRRM's 3 level type of revelation (according to his editor, Anne Groell), this is the first subtle foreshadowing.  The second foreshadowing, would be Jon's election as the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.  Again Sam is in the thick of it.  Sam helped influenced his brothers or had words to doubt, influence to Jon's favor.  Also after the election, Pyp and Grenn thought because of what LC Mormont's raven did (landed near Jon and mounting his shoulder), they thought Sam had something to do with the bird.  But of course, Sam said he certainly had no idea why the bird did that.  I'm of the opinion that the last type of revelation will be the revelation that will be clear to everyone and to the readers.  That during the Great Council to come, Sam will do something with the order of the Maesters to where they have something to facilitate in Jon being elected.  Likewise, a great black wings creature will also have to be in there.  I'm of the the opinion that will be a black dragon (Drogon or Cannibal), and it will be on his shoulder that Jon will mount for the lords of Westeros to see, leading to their vote for Jon to be the king.

**It will not be joyous feeling for Jon when he becomes king.  It will be a like a joyous "morning's brittle beauty gone".

 

[Schwarze Sonne]

2 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

What I meant is that I never understand why people believe that Aragorn being the King was a good thing for him. Personally the only good thing about Aragorn's life was the fact that he lived with his true love but he had passed through hell to earn the right to do it.

Also I do believe that being a King is a burden and not a privilege. 

 

 

I agree that Jon might not be happy being king, but surely if the alternative is him died alone in the cold north, heroic or not, then he'd choose the crown and live in the end. It's not like he had to try so hard to win the crown, it'll like fall to him without him wanting it.

Jon never enjoyed being the lord commander either, but if he wasn't then Slynt and Thorne would have him killed a day after the election if Slynt won the post probably as a turncloak traitor to the Night's Watch and the realm.

You are right about Aragorn being with the woman he loved is actually his (only) happiness, but if he wasn't then someone might mess with their happy life.

Jon and many characters in the story has the privilage to complain about small things. At least he'd be resurrected after the stabbing he totally deserved. Would anyone care had another Night's Watch member deserted the Watch to save his family? Why is it Jon that matters and the rest who killed for it are bad guys here?

[Lord Varys]

The obvious ending is that Dany and Jon will rule and rebuild the Seven Kingdoms (and perhaps large parts of Essos, too) in the end. That's the point why there is an exiled princess and a hidden prince and a royal dynasty prone to incest marriages in this series.

Considering the way things stand (the hidden prince doesn't look like a true Targaryen nor has he ever been acknowledged as such by any of his royal relatives; the exiled princess has prototypical Targaryen looks and is developing into a female version of Aegon the Conqueror) it is quite likely that Daenerys I will become the first universally accepted Queen Regnant in the history of the Seven Kingdoms while Jon Snow will be the prince/king consort (or one of those) at her side after they have dealt with the Others.

If things end on a darker note then Jon is likely to die in the fight against the Others. There have to be casualties to win such a victory, and being a brave warrior and military is more likely than not to die in such a conflict - and many other martial POVs and other warriors might die in that battle as well. 

I'd prefer such a glorious death in battle for Jon to him becoming the first undead king of Westeros. That is just a weird idea. If his body is magically resurrected and if he is no longer completely himself and continues to go down a dark/inhuman path in the books to come I don't think he would make a good king in the end, nor would he be interested in all that rebuilding stuff. That doesn't mean Dany cannot carry his child at the end of the series (although I'm not sure if I want the next king of Westeros to be some sort of half-zombie) but he doesn't have to be around to see and raise it.

The idea that Jon is eventually chosen king in the end or becomes king by default because all other pretenders are dead or have disappeared is very unlikely. Such an ending would way too closely resemble Tad Williams' Osten Ard trilogy (which already influenced ASoIaF to a very high degree) for George to go down that road. That is way too contrived and fairy-tale ending for such a series.

[khal drogon]

7 minutes ago, Schwarze Sonne said:

I agree that Jon might not be happy being king, but surely if the alternative is him died alone in the cold north, heroic or not, then he'd choose the crown and live in the end. It's not like he had to try so hard to win the crown, it'll like fall to him without him wanting it.

Jon never enjoyed being the lord commander either, but if he wasn't then Slynt and Thorne would have him killed a day after the election if Slynt won the post probably as a turncloak traitor to the Night's Watch and the realm.

You are right about Aragorn being with the woman he loved is actually his (only) happiness, but if he wasn't then someone might mess with their happy life.

Jon and many characters in the story has the privilage to complain about small things. At least he'd be resurrected after the stabbing he totally deserved. Would anyone care had another Night's Watch member deserted the Watch to save his family? Why is it Jon that matters and the rest who killed for it are bad guys here?

Jon being not interested in ruling is always brought up which is really false. He didn't feel that the Lord Commander position is thrust upon him.And He definitely wanted to be the "Lord of Winterfell". So much that he considered leaving the Watch until the deal breaker that is burning the weirwood. It is constantly brought up by his fans that he "does not want a position of power" to imply that "he is so humble" and "liking power makes one bad" which is not the case. 

Also the hidden prince or a king's bastard who doesn't want to be king but get thrust into that position which he dislikes is a common trope in fantasies. 

[Wm Portnoy]

21 hours ago, Lame Lothar Frey said:

Jon's ultimate fate?  Medium-rare inside and blackened on the outside. 

Jon will be the third treason in Dany's visions from the House of the Undying.  They will both learn of Jon's parentage and will become close but not in a romantic sense.  Love doesn't just come in the form of romance after all.  Jon will agree to have the wildlings bend the knee if Daenerys and her armies help push the White Walkers out of the north.  The nobility in the north would have fallen by this time and the wildlings will hold power in the north but they will not be strong enough to defend against the White Walkers. Daenerys and her armies will be successful in repelling the White Walkers and pushing them back to the other side of the wall.  However, Jon will refuse to make the wildlings bend the knee, he will not honor the deal,  and declare independence for the north because he loves the wildlings.  Daenerys will capture him and even though she cares for him (the fire to love), she will barbecue him for treason.  Which is how Dany executes traitors.  Jon might be able to warg Ghost and live out his second life as the white direwolf.  The last scene of the story will be Daenerys on Drogon, flying over a snow-covered Winterell, watching the white direwolf running free below. 

This would be an awesome ending.  Jon will die and live a second life as a dog.  How he dies is the question.  He does have a history of betraying people who trusted him.  He betrayed Ygritte and the Wildllings.  He betrayed his Nightwatch brothers to rescue fake Arya.  He betrayed the people of the kingdom when he formed a wildling army for the purposes of attacking the ruling house in the north.  Sooner or later that will catch up to him. 

[Jeeves]

On 12/3/2016 at 8:09 PM, Lame Lothar Frey said:

Jon's ultimate fate?  Medium-rare inside and blackened on the outside. 

 

Roasting is exactly what he will get and should get if he's one of the three treasons.