Was Ser Duncan the Tall really a knight?

[The North Forgot]

As the title says, was Ser Duncan really a knight? I just finished The Hedge Knight again and paid more attention to detail this time around, and I realized that even though Dunk says he was knighted by Ser Arlan, he never actually confirms this in his inner monologue.

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I could find another hedge knight in need of a squire to tend his animals and clean his mail, he thought, or might be I could go to some city, to Lannisport or King's Landing, and join the City Watch. Or else . . .

If he truly was knighted, I don't think he would've even considered squiring for another hedge knight. Also, later in the book, just before the Trial of Seven, he needs another knight to join his side. Raymun Fossoway volunteers to this, but Dunk is reluctant to knight him, but luckily he's saved by Lord Ashford and Lord Baratheon

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A fanfare of trumpets cut the misty morning air. Egg came running up to them. "Ser, Lord Ashford summons you.

The Laughing Storm gave an impatient shake of the head. "Go to him, Ser Duncan. I'll give squire Raymun his knighthood." He slid his sword out of his sheath and shouldered Dunk aside. "Raymun of House Fossoway," he began solemnly, touching the blade to the squire's right shoulder, "in the name of the Warrior I charge you to be brave." The sword moved from his right shoulder to his left. "In the name of the Father I charge you to be just." Back to the right. "In the name of the Mother I charge you to defend the young and innocent." The left. "In the name of the Maid I charge you to protect all women."

Dunk left them there, feeling as relieved as he was guilty. We are still one short, he thought as Egg held Thunder for him. Where will I find another man? He turned the horse and rode slowly toward the viewing stand, where Lord Ashford stood waiting. From the north end of the lists, Prince Aerion advanced to meet him. "Ser Duncan," he said cheerfully, "it would seem you have only five champions.

All in all, even though he was a brilliant knight and the personification of chivalry (at least in the books so far), I seriously doubt he was actually ever knighted

Any thoughts?

[Shmedricko]

Some more quotes:

The Hedge Knight:

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Dunk frowned. "I'll have none of that. I am a knight, I'll have you know."

"You don't look to be a knight."

"Do all knights look the same?"

"No, but they don't look like you, either."

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Dunk pulled shut the door. "Are you Plummer the steward? I came for the tourney. To enter the lists."

Plummer pursed his lips. "My lord's tourney is a contest for knights. Are you a knight?"

He nodded, wondering if his ears were red.

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"He meant for us to hide until the tourney was over. Only then you took me for a stableboy, and …" He lowered his eyes. "I didn't care if Daeron fought or not, but I wanted to be somebody's squire. I'm sorry, ser. I truly am."

Dunk looked at him thoughtfully. He knew what it was like to want something so badly that you would tell a monstrous lie just to get near it. "I thought you were like me," he said. "Might be you are. Only not the way I thought."

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Dunk the lunk, thought he could be a knight.

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He broke my head, and I'm dying. What was worse was the others who would die with him, Raymun and Prince Baelor and the rest. I've failed them. I am no champion. I'm not even a hedge knight. I am nothing.

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Afterward Dunk could not have said whether he walked from the field under his own power or had required help. He hurt everywhere, and some places worse than others. I am a knight now in truth? he remembered wondering. Am I a champion?

The Sworn Sword:

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"You are a good man, Ser Duncan. A brave knight, and true." Ser Eustace gave Dunk's arm a squeeze. "Would that the gods had spared my Alysanne. You are the sort of man I had always hoped that she might marry. A true knight, Ser Duncan. A true knight."

Dunk was turning red.

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"Do not presume upon my patience, ser … if you are a ser."

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"Did you come to knighthood on some battlefield, Ser Duncan? Your speech suggests that you were not born of noble blood, if you will forgive my saying so."

I was born of gutter blood. "A hedge knight named Ser Arlan of Pennytree took me on to squire for him when I was just a boy. He taught me chivalry and the arts of war."

"And this same Ser Arlan knighted you?"

Dunk shuffled his feet. One of his boots was half unlaced, he saw. "No one else was like to do it."

The Mystery Knight:

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"We want no quarrel, m'lord. There's only the two of us, me and my squire." He beckoned Egg forward.

"Squire? Do you claim to be a knight?"

Dunk did not like the way the man was looking at him. Those eyes could flay a man. It seemed prudent to remove his hand from his sword. "I am a hedge knight, seeking service."

"Every robber knight I've ever hanged has said the same. Your device may be prophetic, ser…if ser you are."

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"I think you misheard me, ser. Would it be too bold of me to ask how you came to knighthood, ser?"

"Ser Arlan of Pennytree found me in Flea Bottom, chasing pigs. His old squire had been slain on the Redgrass Field, so he needed someone to tend his mount and clean his mail. He promised he would teach me sword and lance and how to ride a horse if I would come and serve him, so I did."

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"It might take a few years, but I would pay you. I swear it."

"On your honor as a knight?"

Dunk flushed.

So Spake Martin:

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Martin officially said that Dunk was not knighted [by Ser Arlan of Pennytree].

[GyantSpyder]

I agree that it seems from the stories published so far that Dunk was never actually knighted, but lives the virtues, strengths and values of a knight better than almost anybody else. This is making a point about how nobody is perfect and everybody has some sort of lies or secrets, how Dunk is internally conflicted about his life being a "lie," and about how formal institutions don't have some inherent, privileged access to truth or authority.

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, GyantSpyder said:

I agree that it seems from the stories published so far that Dunk was never actually knighted, but lives the virtues, strengths and values of a knight better than almost anybody else. This is making a point about how nobody is perfect and everybody has some sort of lies or secrets, how Dunk is internally conflicted about his life being a "lie," and about how formal institutions don't have some inherent, privileged access to truth or authority.

Yes, it ties in nicely with the charachters Sandor and Brienne, who are not knights and perceived to be unworthy of knighthood by most other characters, but the readers sees their true, almost virtuous nature. Luwin says it best...

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“To be a knight, you must stand your vigil in a sept, and be anointed with the seven oils to consecrate your vows. In the north, only a few of the great houses worship the Seven. The rest honor the old gods, and name no knights … but those lords and their sons and sworn swords are no less fierce or loyal or honorable. A man’s worth is not marked by a ser before his name. As I have told you a hundred times before.”

 

[Jon Fossoway]

I don't think he was ever knighted, in fact, I'm sure about that. I hope he comes clean about that in the future stories. He can behave like a true knight, but then again anyone can do that. But, the ser title gives him some social privileges most of the smallfolk don't have, and that's a little unfair. 

[Whitering]

He's nearing the point where Egg would realize what a knight is supposed to be and just quietly knight him anyway, but since we know how the story ends, I am not sure I am too worried about it. I tend to think he was not knighted but maybe that Arlan had said he would do it soon or something like that.

[Wolf of the Steppes]

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Yes, it ties in nicely with the charachters Sandor and Brienne, who are not knights and perceived to be unworthy of knighthood by most other characters, but the readers sees their true, almost virtuous nature. Luwin says it best...

 

This exactly! 

I don't think he was ever knighted either, but it's more to the point....he's a TRUE knight.

[YOVMO]

2 hours ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

I don't think he was ever knighted, in fact, I'm sure about that. I hope he comes clean about that in the future stories. He can behave like a true knight, but then again anyone can do that. But, the ser title gives him some social privileges most of the smallfolk don't have, and that's a little unfair. 

Even if he wasn't knighted in the earlier part of his life and was lying about it for one reason or another (which I am inclined to believe) wouldn't his appointment to the KG have made him a knight by royal decree? If he wasn't (re)knighted when he was given his white cloak at the very least his knighthood was, at that point, accepted as valid by the Iron Throne.

[Queen of Procrastination]

12 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

Even if he wasn't knighted in the earlier part of his life and was lying about it for one reason or another (which I am inclined to believe) wouldn't his appointment to the KG have made him a knight by royal decree? If he wasn't (re)knighted when he was given his white cloak at the very least his knighthood was, at that point, accepted as valid by the Iron Throne.

I'm not so sure about that. Sandor joined the KG without becoming a knight, but this was very unusual. Most members of the KG are already knights when they join, so there is no need to knight them. So far everyone believes that he's a knight already. It might depend on whether or not Egg or some others learn about it. Maybe they would be willing to knight him at some point before he joins the KG, or maybe he just joined without ever having been knighted.

3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Yes, it ties in nicely with the charachters Sandor and Brienne, who are not knights and perceived to be unworthy of knighthood by most other characters, but the readers sees their true, almost virtuous nature. Luwin says it best...

 

Nicely said. 

[The Hammer of Justice]

He wasn't knighted "officially", although he is more knightly than 99% of the knights in the realm

[YOVMO]

3 minutes ago, Lady of Whisperers said:

I'm not so sure about that. Sandor joined the KG without becoming a knight, but this was very unusual.

I did think about Sandor prior to making the post and it is a valid one but ultimately I decided that what would have went on when Duncan joined the KG was a lot different and more by the book than what was basically the anarchy that was going on when Ser Barristan gets dismissed and the hound gets a white cloak. Still, very good observation and, of course, I am not sure about it either.

3 minutes ago, Lady of Whisperers said:

Most members of the KG are already knights when they join, so there is no need to knight them.

What I was thinking was about how Jamie was named to the KG at Harrenhal. Of course he was already a knight and in ASOS he says "A moon's turn later, a royal raven arrived at Casterly Rock to inform him that he had been chosen for the Kingsguard. He was commanded to present himself to the king during the great tourney at Harrenhal to say his vows and don his cloak."  If I recall right he kneels before Arys who names him to the KG with sword taps on shoulder etc. So it *could* be the case that in the process of joining the kingsguard the knighting ceremony is re-performed as a matter of custom as it seems to be with Jamie (unlike when he goes from being on KG to being LC of KG which was more like a simple promotion). If this is the case and if Duncan wasn't a knight then he could have backdoored his way into knighthood that way.

3 minutes ago, Lady of Whisperers said:

So far everyone believes that he's a knight already. It might depend on whether or not Egg or some others learn about it. Maybe they would be willing to knight him at some point before he joins the KG, or maybe he just joined without ever having been knighted.

 

of course a much more clean explanation is that Egg knew and just knighted him in secret either before or after naming him to KG.

Either way, whether he was a knight or not the point is moot once he was a member of KG as one of the kings 7, especially prior to the sandor debacle, would have been seen by the world, lord and peasant a like, as a true knight.

[The Fattest Leech]

35 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

Even if he wasn't knighted in the earlier part of his life and was lying about it for one reason or another (which I am inclined to believe) wouldn't his appointment to the KG have made him a knight by royal decree? If he wasn't (re)knighted when he was given his white cloak at the very least his knighthood was, at that point, accepted as valid by the Iron Throne.

I don't know for sure, but Jaime doesn't seem to question one of those Kettleblack boys when he returns and finds him in the KG at Cersei's suggestion. Well, he questions it, but he doesn't seem to care.

• A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII

  "Who knighted you?"

  "Ser Robert . . . Stone. He's dead now, my lord."
  "To be sure." Ser Robert Stone might have been some bastard from the Vale, he supposed, selling his sword in the Disputed Lands. On the other hand, he might be no more than a name Ser Osmund cobbled together from a dead king and a castle wall. What was Cersei thinking when she gave this one a white cloak?
  At least Kettleblack would likely know how to use a sword and shield. Sellswords were seldom the most honorable of men, but they had to have a certain skill at arms to stay alive. "Very well, ser," Jaime said. "You may go."

[YOVMO]

29 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I don't know for sure, but Jaime doesn't seem to question one of those Kettleblack boys when he returns and finds him in the KG at Cersei's suggestion. Well, he questions it, but he doesn't seem to care.

• A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII

  "Who knighted you?"

  "Ser Robert . . . Stone. He's dead now, my lord."
  "To be sure." Ser Robert Stone might have been some bastard from the Vale, he supposed, selling his sword in the Disputed Lands. On the other hand, he might be no more than a name Ser Osmund cobbled together from a dead king and a castle wall. What was Cersei thinking when she gave this one a white cloak?
  At least Kettleblack would likely know how to use a sword and shield. Sellswords were seldom the most honorable of men, but they had to have a certain skill at arms to stay alive. "Very well, ser," Jaime said. "You may go."

Oh, good one. I hadn't thought of that. I had often read that section as either more Cersei disregarding the rules that are a hindrance while using draconian measures to enforce the rules that work in her favor and/or Jaime just showing some unintentional highborn snootiness. He still offers him the honorific of Ser, either way, even after obviously questioning his birth and probably his knighthood. Of course he could be doing this because why bother going to war with Cersei about something stupid like this, but also it could be a resignation to "well, when Cersei (by royal decree) put a white cloak on this sellsword she made him a knight of the kingsguard and that's that

 

Hard to tell.

[Queen of Procrastination]

44 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

What I was thinking was about how Jamie was named to the KG at Harrenhal. Of course he was already a knight and in ASOS he says "A moon's turn later, a royal raven arrived at Casterly Rock to inform him that he had been chosen for the Kingsguard. He was commanded to present himself to the king during the great tourney at Harrenhal to say his vows and don his cloak."  If I recall right he kneels before Arys who names him to the KG with sword taps on shoulder etc. So it *could* be the case that in the process of joining the kingsguard the knighting ceremony is re-performed as a matter of custom as it seems to be with Jamie (unlike when he goes from being on KG to being LC of KG which was more like a simple promotion). If this is the case and if Duncan wasn't a knight then he could have backdoored his way into knighthood that way.

Maybe.. it's possible. Unfortunately we don't know super much about the appointing of a KG members and the full ceremony, despite the facts that two of them are POVs. I mean we don't even have the words of the oath. 

Though Duncan is definetely a special case and I'm not sure if the people of Westeros had seen things that way, if they had found out about him. 

[YOVMO]

2 minutes ago, Lady of Whisperers said:

Maybe.. it's possible. Unfortunately we don't know super much about the appointing of a KG members and the full ceremony, despite the facts that two of them are POVs. I mean we don't even have the words of the oath. 

You know, for all my ponderings over insane minutia I have never considered that. Why don't we know the words. Hell, I had the words of the knights watch memorized by the end of AGOT they are mentioned so much. I could actually perform both induction ceremonial and burial rights as a NW member but we really have 0 on KG. I wonder if this is an intentional oversight?

[Jon Fossoway]

2 hours ago, YOVMO said:

 

of course a much more clean explanation is that Egg knew and just knighted him in secret either before or after naming him to KG.

Either way, whether he was a knight or not the point is moot once he was a member of KG as one of the kings 7, especially prior to the sandor debacle, would have been seen by the world, lord and peasant a like, as a true knight.

Sounds a little silly, Egg knighting him in secret having spending so much time being his squire? We're talking about the same Aegon who sent his uncle to the Wall because he beheaded some dude from a historically rebellious House who came in peace. At the least I could say he has a very strong sense of justice. And Dunk lied to him steadily about this matter during the time span of the already published novellas of Dunk & Egg. 

Hard to say, really. But I'm thinking we'll get this issue adressed eventually. Wether he died a liar (but behaved always like a true knight) or came clean and had to do some kind of thing to prove himself (defeating Lyonel Baratheon maybe?).

[YOVMO]

14 hours ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

Hard to say, really. But I'm thinking we'll get this issue adressed eventually. Wether he died a liar (but behaved always like a true knight) or came clean and had to do some kind of thing to prove himself (defeating Lyonel Baratheon maybe?).

Both of these would be egg-cellent (HAR!) options. Dying being a true knight but no knight would seem to be the more poetic of the two I think. Do you feel that there could be any modern day (c.300 AC) repercussions to the knowledge that Dunc was never knighted were it to become common knowledge or is it all just so far removed and in the past that, at best, it would be a mild curiosity? 

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

Another irony from mister martin? Nooooooo it can't be so...

The best "knight" wasn't a knight? Say it isn't soooo...

That said i think Dunk will defeat Lyonel with some "street dunkness" we so fondly read about, then again lyonel is at least 45 when they fought so... no cheapshot needed maybe, but lyonel was the best of dunk's age...

The truth is Dunk has the best human values in the books imo

[Mick of House Guinness]

21 hours ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

Sounds a little silly, Egg knighting him in secret having spending so much time being his squire? We're talking about the same Aegon who sent his uncle to the Wall because he beheaded some dude from a historically rebellious House who came in peace. At the least I could say he has a very strong sense of justice. And Dunk lied to him steadily about this matter during the time span of the already published novellas of Dunk & Egg. 

Hard to say, really. But I'm thinking we'll get this issue adressed eventually. Wether he died a liar (but behaved always like a true knight) or came clean and had to do some kind of thing to prove himself (defeating Lyonel Baratheon maybe?).

Yeah, I have a theory that it will come out when Egg earns his spurs and insists that Dunk should be the one to knight him. Dunk then will admit the truth. Not much evidence I know, but as the WOIAF has a reference to Egg's valour during the third Blackfyre rebellion, we have a possible timeframe for when Egg is knighted. If you will allow me a little further idle, unsupported speculation, following Dunk's revelation a period of separation with Egg will follow during which Dunk will father the descendent(s) we know he has.

[The Twinslayer]

The practical consequence if Dunk is not a knight is that Barristan Selmy may not be a knight.  A squire usually gets his knighthood from the knight he serves.  Dunk's squire was the future Aegon V.  If Dunk "knighted" Egg, then Egg was no knight.  Egg then "knighted" a 16-year old Barristan the Bold after the King's Winter Tourney -- meaning that Barristan is no knight, either.  

And because knighthood is a function of the Faith, I don't think a king who was never a knight has the right to hand out knighthoods.  For example, if Maester Aemon had become king, he would probably have had one of his KG's do the actual knighting rather than "knighting" people himself.