Was Ser Duncan the Tall really a knight?

[velo-knight]

50 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

The practical consequence if Dunk is not a knight is that Barristan Selmy may not be a knight.  A squire usually gets his knighthood from the knight he serves.  Dunk's squire was the future Aegon V.  If Dunk "knighted" Egg, then Egg was no knight.  Egg then "knighted" a 16-year old Barristan the Bold after the King's Winter Tourney -- meaning that Barristan is no knight, either.  

And because knighthood is a function of the Faith, I don't think a king who was never a knight has the right to hand out knighthoods.  For example, if Maester Aemon had become king, he would probably have had one of his KG's do the actual knighting rather than "knighting" people himself.  

IIRC, there was some official pronouncement that kings and knights could each make knights, but not mere lords. I can't remember if this was an SSM or just an argument, though.

[Jô Maltese]

Quote

"Brother, have you taken leave of your senses?" He pointed a mailed finger at Dunk. "This man attacked my son."

"This man protected the weak, as every true knight must," replied Prince Baelor. "Let the gods determine if he was right or wrong." He gave a tug on his reins, turned Valarr's huge black destrier, and trotted to the south end of the field. 

 

Quote

A tall knight stood above him, in black armor dinted and scarred by many blows. Prince Baelor. The scarlet dragon on his helm had lost a head, both wings, and most of its tail. "Your Grace," Dunk said, "I am your man. Please. Your man." 

"My man." The black knight put a hand on Raymun's shoulder to steady himself. "I need good men, Ser Duncan. The realm . . ." His voice sounded oddly slurred. Perhaps he'd bit his tongue.

My reading is that Baelor Breakspear did make Duncan a knight, but Dunk does not fully realise it. But Egg does IMHO.

[Jon Fossoway]

How can you possibly interpret that? 

[Jô Maltese]

7 minutes ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

How can you possibly interpret that? 

Are you talking to me ?

More seriously, I do not understand your question... Interpreting is by nature subjective, so I am not stating a fact, but just interpreting...

[Jon Fossoway]

14 minutes ago, Jo Maltese said:

Are you talking to me ?

More seriously, I do not understand your question... Interpreting is by nature subjective, so I am not stating a fact, but just interpreting...

Yep, you. Interpreting is cognitive though so you must surely rely on some arguments. That's really my question, because all I see is Baelor stating that Dunk behaved like a true knight. When Dunk desperately says that he is 'Baelor's man' near the latter death, well, he's usually trying to serve somebody, no? He even say that at various points. He was raised as a hedge knight so his mindset tend to goes thataway. His criteria being finding and serving honorable causes and just lords, and Baelor was the perfect lord.

[Jô Maltese]

6 minutes ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

Yep, you. Interpreting is cognitive though so you must surely rely on some arguments. That's really my question, because all I see is Baelor stating that Dunk behaved like a true knight. When Dunk desperately says that he is 'Baelor's man' near the latter death, well, he's usually trying to serve somebody, no? He even say that at various points. He was raised as a hedge knight so his mindset tend to goes thataway. His criteria being finding and serving honorable causes and just lords, and Baelor was the perfect lord.

Indeed. But I feel that Baelor has de facto acknowledged Dunk as a knight :

- Granting him the right of a Trial of Seven;

- Accepting him as "his man" just before dying, because he is a "good man" - the only valid definition of a true knight (as Luwin said, see someone's post above)

[RedShirt47]

13 hours ago, velo-knight said:

IIRC, there was some official pronouncement that kings and knights could each make knights, but not mere lords. I can't remember if this was an SSM or just an argument, though.

Didn't Joffrey Knight a bunch of fighters after the battle of Blackwater (Bronn being one such)? I don't believe Joffrey was ever Knighted himself. So I think you're correct that Kings have the power to Knight people.

I am in the camp of Dunk was not knighted (during the first three novellas at least) and I like how it mirrors Brienne. I think the theme of Knighthood is an example of GRRM subverting a trope, The Knight in Shining Armour. Dunk and Brienne (and even Sandor) behave like the classic trope but are not knights whilst Jaime, Trant and a bunch of others are far from the classic hero archetype. Of course he does have many examples of good knights also, such as Selmy. GRRM has a range of characters.

[Jon Fossoway]

1 hour ago, Jo Maltese said:

Indeed. But I feel that Baelor has de facto acknowledged Dunk as a knight :

- Granting him the right of a Trial of Seven;

- Accepting him as "his man" just before dying, because he is a "good man" - the only valid definition of a true knight (as Luwin said, see someone's post above)

Fair enough.

He could have said, too: 'but sire, I am really no knight. I know I did wrong by passing as one all these years, and I humble kneel at your feet to wait whatever you decide to do to this lying bastard'.

I know this is all speculation, but I don't see Baelor exiling him or beheading for breaking into the sacred chivalry institution. But at least, he'd give him some penitence to fulfill. He is in all but name a 'true knight' after all.

[The Twinslayer]

44 minutes ago, RedShirt47 said:

Didn't Joffrey Knight a bunch of fighters after the battle of Blackwater (Bronn being one such)? I don't believe Joffrey was ever Knighted himself. So I think you're correct that Kings have the power to Knight people.

I am in the camp of Dunk was not knighted (during the first three novellas at least) and I like how it mirrors Brienne. I think the theme of Knighthood is an example of GRRM subverting a trope, The Knight in Shining Armour. Dunk and Brienne (and even Sandor) behave like the classic trope but are not knights whilst Jaime, Trant and a bunch of others are far from the classic hero archetype. Of course he does have many examples of good knights also, such as Selmy. GRRM has a range of characters.

No, Joffrey didn't knight anyone.  "They had held their vigil in the Great Sept of Baelor ....  Now they came forward in shifts of undyed wool to receive their knighthoods from the kingsguard."

[Sigella]

On 1 december 2016 at 2:15 PM, The North Forgot said:

 

All in all, even though he was a brilliant knight and the personification of chivalry (at least in the books so far), I seriously doubt he was actually ever knighted

Any thoughts?

I have been giving this some thought too. What I came up with "solution-wise" is that Egg has Dunk knighting him and by doing that nobody can question Dunk's knighthood without calling Egg into question as well.

[velo-knight]

11 minutes ago, Sigella said:

I have been giving this some thought too. What I came up with "solution-wise" is that Egg has Dunk knighting him and by doing that nobody can question Dunk's knighthood without calling Egg into question as well.

Interesting. It's worth noting that as years went on and Dunk's reputation for both combat skill and chivalry grew, there would be fewer and fewer people who would question his knighthood, which is ultimately about reputation.

[Universal Sword Donor]

We don't really know the oaths they undertake or the appointment ceremony. I am definitely on board with Dunk never having been knighted (at least before Egg came to the throne). And if you really want, you can bandy about words and technicalities, given our paucity of knowledge about the KG's exact rules, that anyone appointed to the KG is a knight, whether or not they've sworn the vows.

Kinda the same distinction another fantasy author made with a certain female character in another popular series I'm sure many people in this forum are familiar with.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I personally think that there are plenty of hints suggesting that Arlan did not knight Dunk. In addition, we have an SSM

Spoiler

in which we have a paraphrased statement from GRRM confirming it.

 

I personally think that Aegon, upon reaching the age when he would he granted knighthood, would not be willing to accept his knighthood from anyone but Duncan, so the truth is bound to come out eventually. In which case, Duncan can still be granted his knighthood, albeit in secret if necessary, after which he can grant knighthood to Aegon.

[Lost Melnibonean]

7 hours ago, Jo Maltese said:

 

My reading is that Baelor Breakspear did make Duncan a knight, but Dunk does not fully realise it. But Egg does IMHO.

Nice. 

[Sigella]

4 hours ago, velo-knight said:

Interesting. It's worth noting that as years went on and Dunk's reputation for both combat skill and chivalry grew, there would be fewer and fewer people who would question his knighthood, which is ultimately about reputation.

Maybe.

But fewer and fewer isn't as good as nobody. Plus, he hasn't performed any of the great feats (his trial of seven ended with a fist-fight in the muck, his defeat of the Longinch wasn't exactly elegant either, and in TMK all he does is pretty much super-clumsy) for which I assume he is known in asoiaf. So his rep isn't exactly great, being the cause for BB's death and all

[velo-knight]

Just now, Sigella said:

Maybe.

But fewer and fewer isn't as good as nobody. Plus, he hasn't performed any of the great feats (his trial of seven ended with a fist-fight in the muck, his defeat of the Longinch wasn't exactly elegant either, and in TMK all he does is pretty much super-clumsy) for which I assume he is known in asoiaf. So his rep isn't exactly great, being the cause for BB's death and all

Eh, I suspect this is a matter of us seeing him up close vs. hearing of other feats from a distance. Most fighting is pretty unseemly and undignified - the singers can tell of that tragic Trial by Seven where the brave Prince died for a common hedge knight, who then grew to solve problems in the Reach and whose squire helped end the Second Blackfyre rebellion. It's all a matter of perspective - narratively, such a debt would be compelling to a storyteller to "repay" via good works (real or exaggerated) - but it can't ever fully be repaid, because the more worthy Ser Duncan is, the wiser and more inspired Prince Baelor looks and the greater his loss becomes.

[Yukle]

From what I gather, Dunk is not a Knight during the tales of D&E but he was knighted later in life.

He was Lord Commander of the Kingsguard and a man of his honour would not hold that position without admitting he hasn't earned his spurs.

[Jon Fossoway]

1 hour ago, Yukle said:

From what I gather, Dunk is not a Knight during the tales of D&E but he was knighted later in life.

He was Lord Commander of the Kingsguard and a man of his honour would not hold that position without admitting he hasn't earned his spurs.

During the tales of D&E he says he is a hedge knight and he says he was knighted by ser Arlan and then resorts to talk about this old man being in service of minor lords. I think he uses this argument to persuade people into admitting him into the Ashford tourney and throw that into anyone who even faintly question his false knighthood. He lied; not a white lie, not a small lie: he lied big time and consecutively. Then he took a boy as a squire who then turned out to be a prince, and he continued on his ima knight charade. 

Perhaps you mean that he later in life took his vows as a Kingsguard?

[Universal Sword Donor]

9 hours ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

During the tales of D&E he says he is a hedge knight and he says he was knighted by ser Arlan and then resorts to talk about this old man being in service of minor lords. I think he uses this argument to persuade people into admitting him into the Ashford tourney and throw that into anyone who even faintly question his false knighthood. He lied; not a white lie, not a small lie: he lied big time and consecutively. Then he took a boy as a squire who then turned out to be a prince, and he continued on his ima knight charade. 

Perhaps you mean that he later in life took his vows as a Kingsguard?

I believe he means Egg knighted him, knowing the circumstances.

In my mind it's not much different than being able to dunk. No one alive has seen me dunk (rip coach williams) but I can claim it. If Lebron agreed, well it would mean a lot more.

(I swear it happened once!)