Hooded Man of WF is 10000% Theon

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

Rowan claims the murders here:

Quote

Rowan gave him a hard look. “You have no right to mouth Lord Eddard’s words. Not you. Not ever. After what you did—”

“You killed a boy as well.”

“That was not us. I told you.”

“Words are wind.” They are no better than me. We’re just the same. “You killed the others, why not him? Yellow Dick—”

“—stank as bad as you. A pig of a man.”

“And Little Walder was a piglet. Killing him brought the Freys and Manderlys to dagger points, that was cunning, you—”

“Not us.” Rowan grabbed him by the throat and shoved him back against the barracks wall, her face an inch from his. “Say it again and I will rip your lying tongue out, kinslayer.”

This conversation takes place right after Little Walder's body is found. "A boy" is Little Walder (11 years old i think). Rowan only denies killing Little Walder. Why deny killing LW but not the others? The spearwives killed the others.

[Jadakiss]

4 hours ago, theblackdragonI said:

 

You said in your opening line that theon was the hooded man and that he was the one responsible for all the murders except the ones mance claimed. That's where I got it from. So which is it? Is he just the hooded man, or does putting on the cloak give him the strength to overpower fully armoured soldiers? 

 

He isnt on the hook for any of the murders. I was using my phones voice command.

he is the man that he saw tho

[Jadakiss]

1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Rowan claims the murders here:

This conversation takes place right after Little Walder's body is found. "A boy" is Little Walder (11 years old i think). Rowan only denies killing Little Walder. Why deny killing LW but not the others? The spearwives killed the others.

spear wives killed everyone except lw

[Jadakiss]

2 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

 

This is why establishing that Theon did not kill Yellow Dick is important, because the theory of his multiple personalities is reliant on him doing things and not remember them.

 

Exactly, and that weakens the Theon Durden theory, because now there are no actions he is committing without remembering them.

 

Does not weaken it at all. Theon is out of his mind. he has been tortured for years. him having insane ptsd from all that is easy to include. again if you look at everything its easy. id say focus on how quick the hm was able to identify him, and what the hm said is almost theons inner self saying how he really feels.........title of the chapter, theons scenes skipping from breakfast to dinner.... he is insane now

 

if go through everything his case makes the most sense, the only sense

[Amris]

12 hours ago, Jadakiss said:

gotcha. that is off topic now though

theon himself is the hooded man. grrm left like 50 clues and left a give away by the name of the chapter lol

Are you serious about the 50 clues or is it just a figure of speaking which you use to express that this is a pet theory that you strongly believe in?

IF you have 50 clues (or 5 clues - heck or even just 1 clue) please present them here.

 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

19 minutes ago, Jadakiss said:

spear wives killed everyone except lw

Glad you see it now. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

1 hour ago, Jadakiss said:

 

Does not weaken it at all. Theon is out of his mind. he has been tortured for years. him having insane ptsd from all that is easy to include. again if you look at everything its easy. id say focus on how quick the hm was able to identify him, and what the hm said is almost theons inner self saying how he really feels.........title of the chapter, theons scenes skipping from breakfast to dinner.... he is insane now

 

if go through everything his case makes the most sense, the only sense

The only piece of evidence in favor of it being Theon that I see is that he lets Theon live. If it were someone like Hallis Mollen as has been suggested that would be a huge risk.

[King Ned Stark]

5 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

The only piece of evidence in favor of it being Theon that I see is that he lets Theon live. If it were someone like Hallis Mollen as has been suggested that would be a huge risk.

I agree, the fact that the Hooded Man seems startled and reaches for his dagger is a clue, to me at least, that he was worried Theon would recognize him or raise an alarm.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

10 hours ago, Amris said:

Are you serious about the 50 clues or is it just a figure of speaking which you use to express that this is a pet theory that you strongly believe in?

When the title of the post is "Hooded Man of WF is 10000% Theon" I think we can safely assume this is the case. 

[John Suburbs]

On ‎12‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 3:59 PM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

The bold is greatly exaggerated. The text:

Spatter does not mean blood all over. Dictionary.com definition of spatter: 

 

No, he's not Carrie, but he has blood all over his upper torso. If GRRM wanted to give us a hint that LW was the killer, I think he would have come up with something just a bit more subtle.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

11 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

No, he's not Carrie, but he has blood all over his upper torso.

Again, the text does not say this. It says spatter.

Quote

Snow slid from Ser Hosteen’s cloaks as he stalked toward the high table, his steps ringing against the floor. A dozen Frey knights and men-at-arms entered behind him. One was a boy Theon knew—Big Walder, the little one, fox-faced and skinny as a stick. His chest and arms and cloak were spattered with blood.

Then a little later:

Quote

“This was foul work.” For once Roose Bolton’s voice was loud enough to carry. “Where was the body found?”

“Under that ruined keep, my lord,” replied Big Walder. “The one with the old gargoyles.” The boy’s gloves were caked with his cousin’s blood. “I told him not to go out alone, but he said he had to find a man who owed him silver.”

 

12 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

If GRRM wanted to give us a hint that LW was the killer, I think he would have come up with something just a bit more subtle.

Why? Does every killing need to be a complex mystery? Keep in mind everyone in the hall thinks it was Manderly men, so there is stil a little mystery to quench your thirst. 

Do you have an explanation from the books for the blood spatter and caked blood on BW?

As GRRM has told us before, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[John Suburbs]

On ‎12‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 4:47 AM, Dofs said:

Martin is really not that subtle with clues. R+L=J, the Gravedigger, the Red Wedding, Ned's murder and other stuff has plenty of 'in your face' clues that you simply have to notice to see where everything is going.

Then where did the blood come from?

He is like 11. And I am pretty sure the blood would freeze pretty soon, not hours later.

Lol, I blew right by the whole gravedigger thing on my first read. Never even noticed it. The other stuff is still a lot more subtle than this. I am trying to think of any other author who set a scene like that only to reveal later that the blood-covered one is really the killer.

Where did the blood come from? That is a good question. I can only surmise that he has some viable excuse, otherwise that would have been the first question out of Hosteen's mouth.

I think it's fair to say that the blood in the core of the body would not freeze solid for a good hour at least. Is that enough time for LW to ditch his bloody clothes? The only way in which LW would still have blood on his clothes is if someone discovered the body almost immediately after his death -- before Walder had a chance to change.

But if LW discovers the body before the core blood has frozen, then the spatters might be conducive to him digging the body out of the snow or hugging/shaking it in grief -- both of which would have been seen by Hosteen.

Of course, there is the possibility that LW and Hosteen killed BW and then cooked up the dicing story to implicate Manderlys, but that sounds more like something BW would do, not LW. And why would Hosteen have LW do it, and then march him into the hall spattered in blood?

[aryagonnakill#2]

2 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Lol, I blew right by the whole gravedigger thing on my first read. Never even noticed it. The other stuff is still a lot more subtle than this. I am trying to think of any other author who set a scene like that only to reveal later that the blood-covered one is really the killer.

Where did the blood come from? That is a good question. I can only surmise that he has some viable excuse, otherwise that would have been the first question out of Hosteen's mouth.

I think it's fair to say that the blood in the core of the body would not freeze solid for a good hour at least. Is that enough time for LW to ditch his bloody clothes? The only way in which LW would still have blood on his clothes is if someone discovered the body almost immediately after his death -- before Walder had a chance to change.

But if LW discovers the body before the core blood has frozen, then the spatters might be conducive to him digging the body out of the snow or hugging/shaking it in grief -- both of which would have been seen by Hosteen.

Of course, there is the possibility that LW and Hosteen killed BW and then cooked up the dicing story to implicate Manderlys, but that sounds more like something BW would do, not LW. And why would Hosteen have LW do it, and then march him into the hall spattered in blood?

Isn't he known as Ser Stupid?

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

5 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I think it's fair to say that the blood in the core of the body would not freeze solid for a good hour at least. Is that enough time for LW to ditch his bloody clothes? The only way in which LW would still have blood on his clothes is if someone discovered the body almost immediately after his death -- before Walder had a chance to change.

Or because he is what, 11 years old? 

[John Suburbs]

8 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Again, the text does not say this. It says spatter.

Then a little later:

 

Why? Does every killing need to be a complex mystery? Keep in mind everyone in the hall thinks it was Manderly men, so there is stil a little mystery to quench your thirst. 

Do you have an explanation from the books for the blood spatter and caked blood on BW?

As GRRM has told us before, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

I give GRRM a little credit when it comes to dropping clues, and blood on the chest, arms, cloak and caked all over the hands is a little more than a drop; it's an avalanche. GRRM is not above leaving red herrings either.

And again, it's the logistics I'm questioning here: if the blood in the body is frozen solid all the way to the core, then it must have been laying there for hours, or at least an hour, so why is LW still walking around with his brother's blood on him?

My explanation is that what Theon sees is the frozen blood outside of the body. The inside could still be wet, depending on how long the body was there. If LW got blood on him either digging up the body, which seems likely given his hands, or at least grabbing it or shaking it in grief, that would explain the blood -- and it would also explain why Hosteen is not the least bit curious about his appearance because he saw how it got there.

[John Suburbs]

9 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Isn't he known as Ser Stupid?

He would have to be utterly brain dead not to even wonder where the blood came from.

[John Suburbs]

6 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Or because he is what, 11 years old? 

All the more reason why he would change quickly. He's just a boy and he's scared.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

24 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

And again, it's the logistics I'm questioning here: if the blood in the body is frozen solid all the way to the core, then it must have been laying there for hours, or at least an hour, so why is LW still walking around with his brother's blood on him?

LW is the dead one. They are cousins, not brothers.

Do we know BW has another warm cloak and set of gloves to change into?

25 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

My explanation is that what Theon sees is the frozen blood outside of the body. The inside could still be wet, depending on how long the body was there. If LW got blood on him either digging up the body, which seems likely given his hands, or at least grabbing it or shaking it in grief, that would explain the blood -- and it would also explain why Hosteen is not the least bit curious about his appearance because he saw how it got there.

It says Theon sees blood spatter. I'm going to assume that Theon is seeing blood spatter. Blood spatter would not appear on BW in the matter which you describe. It would appear if BW was standing and facing a person who is being killed.

[Dofs]

45 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Lol, I blew right by the whole gravedigger thing on my first read. Never even noticed it. The other stuff is still a lot more subtle than this. I am trying to think of any other author who set a scene like that only to reveal later that the blood-covered one is really the killer.

I think I was not clear here. Martin's clues are not the ones that a reader really needs to think about to understand what that clue might mean. Martin's clues are those which if a reader doesn't notice them on the initial read and then finds them out on a reread or on a forum, he goes "omg, it's so obvious, how I didn't notice it". His clues are not subtle, as they immediately reveal the mystery behind them once a reader notices them.

52 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Where did the blood come from? That is a good question. I can only surmise that he has some viable excuse, otherwise that would have been the first question out of Hosteen's mouth.

As it was said, Hosteen is stupid. He could have assumed that BW's blood was from him picking up LW or something like that.

53 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I think it's fair to say that the blood in the core of the body would not freeze solid for a good hour at least. Is that enough time for LW to ditch his bloody clothes? The only way in which LW would still have blood on his clothes is if someone discovered the body almost immediately after his death -- before Walder had a chance to change.

Or BW (not LW) simply is 11 years old. I also think it was dark at that time ( I might be wrong though)

57 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

But if LW discovers the body before the core blood has frozen, then the spatters might be conducive to him digging the body out of the snow or hugging/shaking it in grief -- both of which would have been seen by Hosteen.

Or, BW is simply a killer. And what you had described is what Hosteen had thought.

58 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Of course, there is the possibility that LW and Hosteen killed BW and then cooked up the dicing story to implicate Manderlys, but that sounds more like something BW would do, not LW. And why would Hosteen have LW do it, and then march him into the hall spattered in blood?

I am not going to answer this since I don't believe Hosteen participated.

[John Suburbs]

24 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

LW is the dead one. They are cousins, not brothers.

Do we know BW has another warm cloak and set of gloves to change into?

It says Theon sees blood spatter. I'm going to assume that Theon is seeing blood spatter. Blood spatter would not appear on BW in the matter which you describe. It would appear if BW was standing and facing a person who is being killed.

lol, sorry, I'm getting my Walders mixed up again.

He's nobility. I can only imagine that he has more than one set of winter clothes. In any event, you change into whatever you have rather than wander around for hours spattered with the evidence of your guilt.

Not true, if he is yanking and pulling on a body that is not completely frozen and then hugging it in grief, globs of congealed but still wet blood could be coming off like spatter. And it still doesn't explain why both of his hands would be "caked with blood." That indicates that they spent a good deal of time in direct contact with a lot of blood -- as if he were digging and pulling at a body, not slashing with a knife.