Hooded Man of WF is 10000% Theon

[Macgregor of the North]

40 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

 

First you said Theon killed the rest, like Yellow Dick, and now you're saying he didn't kill anyone. I'm confused, which is it?

 

I think it's clear by now that Jadakiss is a YouTube video theory copy and paster and when asked questions that involve actual book research his whole world crumbles.

I think we would all do well not to encourage this kind of practice. Or one day this forum may be over run with people who no longer read the books, but watch the latest instalment of videos from fools such as Tony Dumbass or Preston Ja... whoever the guys name is and then post them on here begging for attention acting like they were the ones who birthed the ideas.

Its hilarious and predictable. 

About as predictable as the barrage of abuse I will receive from Jadakiss here, or is it Beastmaster64? I forget which YouTube follower I address sometimes.

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, Dofs said:

The Hooded Man appeared for two paragraphs, was rude to Theon during them and then was never ever mentioned again. What in all of this indicates that they are the same person and that the title "Ghost of Winterfell" refers to him?

Check the post at the top of page 5. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

 

First you said Theon killed the rest, like Yellow Dick, and now you're saying he didn't kill anyone. I'm confused, which is it?

 

"Yara"

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

10 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

"Yara"

 Haha. Don't do this to me. I laughed so hard I spit out my coffee.

[Jon Fossoway]

Yara

 

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I can't prove anything in a fantasy series. But it would be very odd for George to use "spatter" in its correct form every single time in the books, but use it incorrectly in this instance.

It what way is "spatter' only correct if it is caused by an act of violence? It's a description of the pattern, not the cause.

22 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

You really think George is thinking,  "These readers are going to remember everytime I used 'spatter' in the way it's supposed to (blood spraying out), so now I'm going to use it in the wrong way so they think BW did it, even though he didn't." Is the LW murder so important to the series to do this?

No, he is using the term correctly, to indicate the way it looks on the clothes, not how it got there.

22 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Why isn't this possible? Caked only means the blood has hardened or dried. Why wouldn't this be possible? It is very possible within the timeline of BW killing LW, leaving, and either he or Hosteen finding the body after it has frozen.

Also, why would BW try and dig out the body as you describe? There is no love between these two. They call each other "stupid".

If the "spatter" can only be caused by fresh blood spraying out of an open wound, why does the blood "spatter" on his chest and cloak but "cake" onto his gloves. Caked implies lots of blood that is worked heavily into the fabric, which can only come about through lengthy contact with the source. Why is there no caked blood, or any significant amounts of blood, anywhere but his hands?

They are kin, and they've been companions since they left the twins. They call each other stupid they way siblings and cousins frequently do. None of your quotes show any real hostility between the two, certainly not enough to initiate a violent murder for no apparent reason. Arya and Sansa give each other much worse than this -- is GRRM trying to suggest that Arya is going to kill Sansa now?

 

And again, you're dodging the real problem with your theory. If the body is so frozen solid, then a fair amount of time has obviously elapsed since the murder. Why is BW still walking around with his victim's blood caked on his hands and spattered on his chest and cloak?

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

And a frozen corpse  wouldn't bleed anyway, let alone spray since the blood would be frozen/congealed. 

Lol, are you suggesting that LW was frozen first and then killed? Of course a freshly killed body lying in the snow is going to ooze blood before it freezes solid. And when someone digs that body up, he is going to get bloody snow "caked" all over has hands and there might even be some bloody snow "spattered" on his chest and cloak where it will leave a stain.

And again, I will pose the question that no one has a satisfactory answer for: if the body has been lying in the snow long enough to freeze through and through, why has BW not bothered to dispose of the clear and unimpeachable evidence on his hands, chest and cloak?

 

 

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I don't want to speak incorrectly  @John Suburbs so please correct me if I am wrong JS, but I think he believes BW hugged, pulled, and/or dragged the body immediately after the death then went back later (after it froze) or told Hosteen about it.

We don't know how the body was discovered, or by whom. It might have been BW, who has not seen his cousin since he went off to collect his debt, or it might have been someone else who alerted Hosteen and BW. The body could very well have been lying there a long time so that most of the extremities were indeed frozen, but the core was still wet.

I doubt very much that BW would discover the body at some point in the night and then not bother to tell Hosteen about it for hours.

 

23 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

@John Suburbs

Also, BW is the smaller one. He wouldn't be strong enough to pull on a dead, frozen body hard enough to open up a frozen wound through snow to be able to spray blood on him. Not that he would do this anyways.

You keep making these kinds of statements as if they were solid facts when they're not. How do you know how strong BW is, or how deeply the body was buried, or how thoroughly it was frozen?

[kissdbyfire]

43 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Lol, are you suggesting that LW was frozen first and then killed? Of course a freshly killed body lying in the snow is going to ooze blood before it freezes solid. And when someone digs that body up, he is going to get bloody snow "caked" all over has hands and there might even be some bloody snow "spattered" on his chest and cloak where it will leave a stain.

And again, I will pose the question that no one has a satisfactory answer for: if the body has been lying in the snow long enough to freeze through and through, why has BW not bothered to dispose of the clear and unimpeachable evidence on his hands, chest and cloak?

The post I replied to talked about a frozen body, and my reply was that a frozen corpse wouldn't bleed. 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

It what way is "spatter' only correct if it is caused by an act of violence? It's a description of the pattern, not the cause.

Where did I say it only had to be caused by an act of violence?  If you are referring to the quotes I used, those are from the books.  Yes, each time Goerge uses "blood spatter" it is from violence.  The same way it applies in the instance we are discussing. You are right though, it is a pattern.  The pattern of scattering in small particles or drops.  

 

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

No, he is using the term correctly, to indicate the way it looks on the clothes, not how it got there.

The way it looks on clothes? I think it is the way it is, and the only way blood spatter would appear on clothes is by way of the spattering of blood.  The only way blood spatter would appear anywhere is by the spattering of blood.

 

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

If the "spatter" can only be caused by fresh blood spraying out of an open wound, why does the blood "spatter" on his chest and cloak but "cake" onto his gloves. Caked implies lots of blood that is worked heavily into the fabric, which can only come about through lengthy contact with the source. Why is there no caked blood, or any significant amounts of blood, anywhere but his hands?

The bold is incorrect.  Caked does not imply any specific amount of blood. Caked simply means "to form into a crust or compact mass" (dictionary.com).  It would probably be more blood than spatter in order to crust, yes, but in no way does "caked" imply "lots of blood". This would fit perfectly into what I believe happened.  BW is stabbing LW, getting blood on his gloves, which eventually cakes (hardens).  This would also explain the spatter which appears on his upper torso.  It makes sense that there would be more blood on his hands than on his torso because his hands are holding the dagger (the most likely weapon), probably grabbing at LW in a struggle as well, thus getting more blood on the gloves than anywhere else.  

 

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

They are kin, and they've been companions since they left the twins. They call each other stupid they way siblings and cousins frequently do. None of your quotes show any real hostility between the two, certainly not enough to initiate a violent murder for no apparent reason. Arya and Sansa give each other much worse than this -- is GRRM trying to suggest that Arya is going to kill Sansa now?

My quotes were not supposed to show any hostility between the two (even though by the end I think there was based on how Theon thinks this:

"Little Walder had become Lord Ramsay's best boy and grew more like him every day, but the smaller Frey was made of different stuff and seldom took part in his cousin's games and cruelties."

My quotes were meant to display that they do not love each other in any way (as I stated earlier).  This refutes your idea that BW would have gotten blood spatter on his upper torso because he was "hugging, pulling, dragging" LW.  Even though he most likely cannot physically do this, or would it cause spatter, or would it make sense based on him doing the "hugging, pulling, dragging" then leaving and not saying anything until the body freezes. To the Arya, Sansa comment: If Arya is found "butchered like a pig" (as See Hosteen describes LW) and we immediately see Sansa show up with blood spattered on her torso, and her gloves caked with blood we would certainly be looking a their comments and conversations as well. So I don't really see your point with this comment.   

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And again, you're dodging the real problem with your theory. If the body is so frozen solid, then a fair amount of time has obviously elapsed since the murder. Why is BW still walking around with his victim's blood caked on his hands and spattered on his chest and cloak?

I actually addressed this a long time ago.  I contend two, kind of three, reasons for BW not changing clothes.  1) BW is 11, he would not think change clothes.  2) I don't think we can say for sure that he has another pair of warm winter gloves.  Even though he is nobility, nice gloves are expensive and valuable.  He is 11, do kids get two sets of nice gloves when their hands are going to grow and they will need new gloves soon anyways?  I don't think we know this for sure.  Also, he may have not noticed the spatter on his upper torso.  

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

You keep making these kinds of statements as if they were solid facts when they're not. How do you know how strong BW is, or how deeply the body was buried, or how thoroughly it was frozen?

You're right.  I should have said BW is "most likely" not strong enough to pull on a dead, frozen body hard enough to open up a frozen wound through snow to be able to spray blood on him. Not that he would do this anyways. But I do contend that it makes sense that he wouldn't be strong enough based on the description George gives us here: 

Quote

Big Walder was sharp-faced and skinny and half a foot shorter. "He's fifty-two days older than me," Little Walder explained, "so he was bigger at first, but I grew faster."

You would have to be pretty damn strong to pull on a (most likely frozen) body hard enough for blood to come out high and hard enough to spatter your upper torso.  

[John Suburbs]

On ‎12‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 5:54 PM, kissdbyfire said:

The post I replied to talked about a frozen body, and my reply was that a frozen corpse wouldn't bleed. 

Of course not, but the body was not frozen when it was killed, right? Therefore, blood would have leaked into the snow.

[John Suburbs]

On ‎12‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 7:53 PM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Where did I say it only had to be caused by an act of violence?  If you are referring to the quotes I used, those are from the books.  Yes, each time Goerge uses "blood spatter" it is from violence.  The same way it applies in the instance we are discussing. You are right though, it is a pattern.  The pattern of scattering in small particles or drops.  

If I understand you correctly, the only "correct" use of the term spatter is blood sprayed from a fresh wound. I submit this is not the case; it can be caused by bloody snow being shoveled frantically, or blood being shaken off a body that is not completely frozen.

On ‎12‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 7:53 PM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

The way it looks on clothes? I think it is the way it is, and the only way blood spatter would appear on clothes is by way of the spattering of blood.  The only way blood spatter would appear anywhere is by the spattering of blood.

The text is clear: the word is used to describe the way the blood appears on BW's clothes, because that is all that Theon sees. He was not there when it happened, so it is a huge leap in logic to conclude definitively that the spatter was created at the moment of death.

On ‎12‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 7:53 PM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

The bold is incorrect.  Caked does not imply any specific amount of blood. Caked simply means "to form into a crust or compact mass" (dictionary.com).  It would probably be more blood than spatter in order to crust, yes, but in no way does "caked" imply "lots of blood". This would fit perfectly into what I believe happened.  BW is stabbing LW, getting blood on his gloves, which eventually cakes (hardens).  This would also explain the spatter which appears on his upper torso.  It makes sense that there would be more blood on his hands than on his torso because his hands are holding the dagger (the most likely weapon), probably grabbing at LW in a struggle as well, thus getting more blood on the gloves than anywhere else.  

caked: of a thick or sticky substance that hardens when dry; cover and/or become encrusted on the surface of an object.

By definition, caked blood is more than spattered blood. How does blood become caked onto both gloves? Is he stabbing him with two hands? How are the gloves becoming caked when the blood is in fact spraying out of the wound onto the chest and cloak? Why does BW have the presence of mind to ditch the murder weapon but still walk around for hours with bloody gloves? Even OJ had the sense to hide the gloves before he talked to the cops.

 

On ‎12‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 7:53 PM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

My quotes were not supposed to show any hostility between the two (even though by the end I think there was based on how Theon thinks this:

"Little Walder had become Lord Ramsay's best boy and grew more like him every day, but the smaller Frey was made of different stuff and seldom took part in his cousin's games and cruelties."

My quotes were meant to display that they do not love each other in any way (as I stated earlier).  This refutes your idea that BW would have gotten blood spatter on his upper torso because he was "hugging, pulling, dragging" LW.  Even though he most likely cannot physically do this, or would it cause spatter, or would it make sense based on him doing the "hugging, pulling, dragging" then leaving and not saying anything until the body freezes. To the Arya, Sansa comment: If Arya is found "butchered like a pig" (as See Hosteen describes LW) and we immediately see Sansa show up with blood spattered on her torso, and her gloves caked with blood we would certainly be looking a their comments and conversations as well. So I don't really see your point with this comment.   

There is nothing in the text that even remotely suggests that BW wanted to or was planning to kill LW. They had different personalities, that's all. They were still cousins, close companions since they left the Twins together, and it would only be natural that BW would be the one to attempt to free the body. Nothing you've presented refutes that in any way.

Yes, we would certainly be looking at their comments, but the first question out of the mouths of the characters in the book would be "where did all that blood come from, Sansa?" Unless, of course, it was obvious to everyone that she was the one digging the body out of the snow.

On ‎12‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 7:53 PM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I actually addressed this a long time ago.  I contend two, kind of three, reasons for BW not changing clothes.  1) BW is 11, he would not think change clothes.  2) I don't think we can say for sure that he has another pair of warm winter gloves.  Even though he is nobility, nice gloves are expensive and valuable.  He is 11, do kids get two sets of nice gloves when their hands are going to grow and they will need new gloves soon anyways?  I don't think we know this for sure.  Also, he may have not noticed the spatter on his upper torso.  

You're right.  I should have said BW is "most likely" not strong enough to pull on a dead, frozen body hard enough to open up a frozen wound through snow to be able to spray blood on him. Not that he would do this anyways. But I do contend that it makes sense that he wouldn't be strong enough based on the description George gives us here: 

You would have to be pretty damn strong to pull on a (most likely frozen) body hard enough for blood to come out high and hard enough to spatter your upper torso.  

He has just killed his cousin and closest companion in cold blood, face to face as the light went out of his eyes, and in the intervening hours before the body is found he just forgot to change his bloody clothes? Please. Every conversation we've seen shows BW is at least reasonably thoughtful and intelligent. He would have to be a complete retard not to notice his now-ruined gloves are clear evidence of his guilt, so this notion is completely contradictory to the text.

He wouldn't be able to lift the body directly out of the snow, but he would be able to clear the bloody snow with his gloved hands, and then pull and tug it free. And it is very likely that both the gloves and the spatter were caused by digging and flinging bloody snow.

 

 

[Amris]

When I read the scene I also  stumbled over the 'spattered' word since there is a discrepancy between LW having been dead so long that his blood had been frozen and BW still being 'spattered'.

So on first impression one would assume that BW must have been 'spattered' while the blood was still unfrozen and spraying forth from LW, thus indicating BW must be the killer.

BUT

As rightly pointed out upthread since LW had been dead long enough to freeze when the party brought his body into the great hall it seemed  strange to me that BW (if he had been the killer) had not washed off the blood and changed clothes? I mean that would have been the obvious thing to do! Which murderer with enough time on hand walks up to authorities, spattered in his victim's blood?

So my conclusion was that BW likely is not the killer.

How did BW get 'spattered' then?

My idea - which ofc may be utterly wrong (but which was what I thought at the time I read the scene and which I am still sticking to since I have found no better explanation for the conundrum) - is that BW found LW's already dead and frozen body in the snowbank, dug him out, thereby exerting himself so much that he heated up and made the bloody snow on his arms and chest start to melt, thereyby causing the 'spatter'.
 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

On 12/13/2016 at 3:47 AM, Amris said:

How did BW get 'spattered' then?

My idea - which ofc may be utterly wrong (but which was what I thought at the time I read the scene and which I am still sticking to since I have found no better explanation for the conundrum) - is that BW found LW's already dead and frozen body in the snowbank, dug him out, thereby exerting himself so much that he heated up and made the bloody snow on his arms and chest start to melt, thereyby causing the 'spatter'.
 

Hi. There is a new thread on this subject here. Come on over so we don't derail this one more than we already have.

But a couple issues with your possible explanation.

First, there is no mention of snow on BW. We have no textual evidence of him doing any digging at all. In fact, it is much more likely that Hosteen did the digging given that he is holding the body and covered in snow. There is no snow mentioned on BW. Also, there is no blood mentioned on Hosteen. 

Second, even if we speculate that BW did some digging.... Blood mixed with snow then being transferred onto clothing would not appear as spatter. George has been very specific and consistent his use of "blood spatter". I quoted and listed each time on the other thread. 

Feel free to respond over there. Cheers!

[Amris]

12 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Hi. There is a new thread on this subject here. Come on over so we don't derail this one more than we already have.

But a couple issues with your possible explanation.

First, there is no mention of snow on BW. We have no textual evidence of him doing any digging at all. In fact, it is much more likely that Hosteen did the digging given that he is holding the body and covered in snow. There is no snow mentioned on BW. Also, there is no blood mentioned on Hosteen. 

Second, even if we speculate that BW did some digging.... Blood mixed with snow then being transferred onto clothing would not appear as spatter. George has been very specific and consistent his use of "blood spatter". I quoted and listed each time on the other thread. 

Feel free to respond over there. Cheers!

Thank you Yeah - I saw the new thread too late. I'll look in but don't know if I post again since I think everything has likely been said from all different angles hehe.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

2 minutes ago, Amris said:

Thank you Yeah - I saw the new thread too late. I'll look in but don't know if I post again since I think everything has likely been said from all different angles hehe.

Never know. The more brains the better (most of the time). Lol

[Impbread]

On ‎12‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 10:49 AM, Jadakiss said:

 

if you cant put 2 and 2 together not sure what to tell you.... the hooded man isnt killing people, same as theon, he just wanders in the night they hold the same style dagger, and even in a pitch black snow storm the hooded man says theon instantly........if you just put it all together its very clear. he is obviously out of his mind at this point, not just  the breakfast to dinner in a paragraph just everything

 

hooded man told theon what his inner conscience was feeling, how he killed the stark boys, all he ever was was false etc etc.

 

keep in mind when theon and yara finally met again she couldnt even tell who he was (he knew her) so if sh couldnt notice her own brother, the chances of some guy in a pitch black snow storm at a dark hour seeing its him right away etc

Theon walks funny now that hes been tortured. It would be very easy to tell it was him just by his stride.

[Jadakiss]

1 hour ago, Impbread said:

Theon walks funny now that hes been tortured. It would be very easy to tell it was him just by his stride.

 

He walks like a cripple. Just like old man Karstark...... and in heavy snow, nobody will notice the difference as to who is getting burned to death

[WinterPool Stark]

On 8 December 2016 at 4:11 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

"Yara"?

Te he he heeee

he said Theon escaped with 'Sansa' earlier too 

[Lord Lannister]

I always thought Theon's thoughts that the hooded man was going to do something was himself trying to muster the courage to act on Jeyne's behalf. Given his identity issues, which existed well before Ramsay ever got his hands on Theon, it's entirely possible that he would project his courage and will to act into an alternate persona in his head. He was always his hardest critic as well.