TheSeer27

Baby swap

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Was the baby swap with Craster's kid and Mance's kid really necessary? I mean couldn't she have just taken them both lol. Its not like Stannis is gonna leave the wall and chase after them. I don't think George would do it without a reason, so what do you guys think the significance will be in later books? Just something more to confuse us? :P

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*Edit*  Accidently referenced Jon's perspective on the issue from ADWD and this is an AFFC thread.  

Spoiler

She wanted to take them both, but I believe Jon told her it wasn't possible because if both babies were gone, Melisandre and Selyse would know what's up and have them brought back.  Then they will all surely be burned anyway for defiance.  She still refuses until Jon threatens if she doesn't do it, he will kill the baby anyway if Mance's son burns.  Not Jon's shining moment how he's emotionally blackmailing Gilly, but he is pointing out burning is a horrible way to die.  Jon assures her her son won't be burned if she leaves him because he has no kings blood.  If Melisandre tried, Jon could always say he swapped the babies and by then Gilly and Sam would be too far away to do anything and he believes Stannis will not burn an innocent.  He is gambling with Gilly's baby and Maester Aemon's life.  He knows he's too old for this trip, but in Jon's mind it's way better than burning for having king's blood.  I don't know what the future holds for Gilly's boy or Mance's, but I think we're being set up for the irony that is Shireen being burned for her king's blood -- that Jon is wrong and Stannis could burn an innocent.

 

 

Edited by Blue-Eyed Wolf

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I get all that. I just think its a little ridiculous that Stannis would "have them brought back". With everything thats going on he doesn't have time to chase after a baby or even lose some men chasing them down. He needs every man he can get at the Wall and fighting the Boltons. And I get that it was a part of Jon "killing the boy" in himself and becoming a man. I do like what you said about Shireen though. Very interesting!

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Stannis might not have.  Not that he brooks disobedience but he's more practical.  The real dangerous person here to anyone with king's blood or even common blood is Selyse.  She's a hardcore zealot and forming her own power structure of other zealots within Stannis's army.  Would she spare a few people to retrieve two people with king's blood? Totally.  She's that far gone.  She doesn't have a loving relationship with Stannis either, so I wouldn't put anything past her.  She was arguing pretty hard before about burning Edric Storm to wake the stone dragon and that kid is her own cousin's child.  I have to apologize, but what I said before about Jon actually came out of ADWD and this is an AFFC thread.  I corrected it by putting it in spoilers. 

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On 12/2/2016 at 2:00 AM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

 

Stannis might not have.  Not that he brooks disobedience but he's more practical.  The real dangerous person here to anyone with king's blood or even common blood is Selyse.  She's a hardcore zealot and forming her own power structure of other zealots within Stannis's army.  Would she spare a few people to retrieve two people with king's blood? Totally.  She's that far gone.  She doesn't have a loving relationship with Stannis either, so I wouldn't put anything past her.  She was arguing pretty hard before about burning Edric Storm to wake the stone dragon and that kid is her own cousin's child.  I have to apologize, but what I said before about Jon actually came out of ADWD and this is an AFFC thread.  I corrected it by putting it in spoilers. 

I totally agree with that; Melissandre is pulling all the strings of course but Selyse would send someone chasing after them  Now I wonder if they are going to find out about Jon's parentage lol.  I guess defeating the Boltons would happen sooner but at some point... who knows... I get the feeling that although Stannis won't, Melissandre will make it until the very end.  She will have some important role to play but that woman is just dangerous...

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I think the concern was that Melisandre would realize almost immediately that both children were gone, and would seek to have them intercepted before they could leave Eastwatch, which is a journey of several days.  A raven would likely beat them there.

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28 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I think the concern was that Melisandre would realize almost immediately that both children were gone, and would seek to have them intercepted before they could leave Eastwatch, which is a journey of several days.  A raven would likely beat them there.

yeah, there is that for sure; good point :)

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Jon and Aemon are misinterpreting Melisandre (and Stannis) intentions and power. In that respect they are being as foolish as Davos or Cressen. Of course nothing they have heard so far help to quench their disquiet.  They do not understand Melisandre. Interestingly it may be that Val understands quite a lot about her power and her limitations but this is aDwD.  

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This totally didn't happen in the show. I was rather shocked actually.

Is it me or is Jon quite different in the books? He comes across as more cold in the books, maybe it's just how the TV has made him nicer because it adds a handsome face to the character. When I read the books, Jon reminds me in my head of this:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/24/49/04/2449040997933da8165ce909febf9e18--fantasy-men-anime-fantasy.jpg

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On 25/08/2017 at 3:20 AM, Wolfgirly said:

This totally didn't happen in the show. I was rather shocked actually.

Is it me or is Jon quite different in the books? He comes across as more cold in the books, maybe it's just how the TV has made him nicer because it adds a handsome face to the character. When I read the books, Jon reminds me in my head of this:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/24/49/04/2449040997933da8165ce909febf9e18--fantasy-men-anime-fantasy.jpg

Yep, that's sort of how I imagine book!Jon to look, too.

It would say that if there is one thing that Kit Harrington really captures about Jon Snow, it's the brooding/teenage melancholy of the character. I'm ploughing my way through 'A Feast for Crows' now and I would say... I noticed a distinct change in Jon when he becomes Lord Commander. From the end of ASoS and the Samwell chapter here in AFfC, there is a very cold edge to him. I suspect that, aside from the weight of the responsibility being Lord Commander at the tender age of sixteen-going-on-seventeen, he is probably under a lot of pressure from Stannis and Melisandre. They wanted him for Winterfell, but he refused and is now Lord Commander. Jon needs the Wall well-defended because the Others are coming, but Stannis wants the wildlings for his army, hence the whole Jon-Val-Winterfell package deal proposed in ASoS. Stannis clearly has a very tight grip on the Watch at the moment as he was pretty much refusing to let them eat until they elected a commander.

So, yes. In short, I agree with you though I would say cold is not so much cold as he is under a lot of stress and, when there is no viable excuse, is prone to melancholy (usually over the inadequacy he felt being the "bastard of Winterfell".)

On 01/12/2016 at 5:02 PM, TheSeer27 said:

Was the baby swap with Craster's kid and Mance's kid really necessary? I mean couldn't she have just taken them both lol. Its not like Stannis is gonna leave the wall and chase after them. I don't think George would do it without a reason, so what do you guys think the significance will be in later books? Just something more to confuse us? :P

On the one hand, I agree it seems a little like he's throwing Gilly's baby under the cart for Dalla's baby. However, I think the logical Jon is using is that he (and I'm guessing Val) will presumably know the swap happened. Plus, I do wonder if a part of it is supposed to be about maybe having something over Mance? Like a political play? Maybe I'm just making it up but Mance might probably be more willing to play ball with Stannis if he thinks his son is still at the Wall? I know Jon was going to talk to Stannis about letting Val take the baby to see Mance towards the end of ASoS -- maybe they even showed him the wrong baby? Or maybe I've gone insane. :blink:

(The idea doesn't feel like it makes sense much even in my head but it sounds like the sort of plan Jon and Aemon might have cooked up in their off-page discussion and that it wasn't just about Sam going off to become a Maester.)

I wonder a lot about these "body-double" plots that seem to be cropping up a bit in Feast:

Spoiler

Literal ones like Gilly's son vs Mance's son or Myrcella vs Rosamund, or the several heads Cersei gets brought by people trying to claim the reward for Tyrion's head, or Rorge being mistaken for the Hound because of the helm, or Brienne's endless quest to find Sansa - and Arya - and briefly wondering if Willow might be Arya after being told at the start of the quest by Jaime not to bother with (f)Arya who is with the Boltons.

There are so many body-doubles, mistaken identities and switcheroos going on!

1

 

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On 01/11/2017 at 7:03 PM, Faera said:

I wonder a lot about these "body-double" plots that seem to be cropping up a bit in Feast:

  Hide contents

Literal ones like Gilly's son vs Mance's son or Myrcella vs Rosamund, or the several heads Cersei gets brought by people trying to claim the reward for Tyrion's head, or Rorge being mistaken for the Hound because of the helm, or Brienne's endless quest to find Sansa - and Arya - and briefly wondering if Willow might be Arya after being told at the start of the quest by Jaime not to bother with (f)Arya who is with the Boltons.

There are so many body-doubles, mistaken identities and switcheroos going on!

1

 

I think these are basically the kind of plot that GRRM likes to set. Let alone the AFFC ones, remember the Reek/Ramsay plot in ACOK ?

Then later...

Spoiler

fAegon plot in ADWD ? Mance/Abel plot ? Mance/Rattleshirt plot ? And Alys Karstark being believed as Arya ?

There are plenty of these in ASOIAF, those books are amazing. o/

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