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Heresy 192 The Wheel of Time


Black Crow

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1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Did you read Snowfyre's theory about the source of Craster's meat stores under his Keep?  Perhaps the blood and soul goes to the "Cold" but the meat stays with Craster.

There is interesting imagery connection the Night's King/Corpse Queen and with what I think is GRRM's major inspiration for the sacrifice of Craster's sons, the Canaanite god, Moloch. 

ASOS, compare to another best selling book:

Leviticus 20:2

Leviticus 20:3

and ect. ect.

 

I don't remember that one. Do you have a link?

1 hour ago, Armstark said:

Well, you know my view: I think Rhaego's soul was split in three and transferred to the dragons. Not one dragon with three heads but one head (Rhaego) with three dragons. Not Fire and Blood but Blood (MMDs tent) and Fire (the pyre). The sphinx is the riddle not the riddler and the valyrian sphinx is part dragon (Dany), part human (Drogo and Dany) and part stallion (Drogo).

I like these flips...;)

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1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Now there are differences of course. Fire consumes. Mel's shadow babies don't last long because they are smoke animated by only a part of Stannis' soul. Craster's sons on the other hand are ice and animated out of whole cloth and young cloth at that, stinking of life.

Not to derail here, but while I understand the comparison between Mel's shadows and the white walkers, I think there's another "golem" in the story that represents a spring/summer opposite of the white walkers, and we just don't know this yet because we haven't met them: the Green Men.

Whereas the white walkers represent death, blight, ice, and winter, I think the green men represent life, fertility, earth, and summer; furthermore, I think both are created with essentially similar magic - the magic of the old gods - through similar means and for similar purposes, that they are humans that have been transformed to protect the weirwood. I view them as two sides of the same coin.

IMO, this passage from Asha's Wayward Bride chapter in ADWD alludes to this:
 

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She thought back to a tale she had heard as a child, about the children of the forest and their battles with the First Men, when the greenseers turned the trees to warriors.

 

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1 minute ago, Armstark said:

Just uncheck AWOIAF and you won't have to see it ;)

If I look at that list it's only old places (Oldtown, Winterfell, Volantis, Gendel&Gorne's cave) and Littlefinger's ledgers.

But to get back to the topic at hand: Do you think that is why the had to fight at the ToJ, because the KG's wanted to sacrifice the babe and Ned wanted to save it?

Eventually, I'm going to get around to coming up with a comprehensive post on the matter, but basically yes.  It's not so much that the Kingsgaurd wanted to sacrifice a child (or perhaps multiple children) but they were ordered to carry out the plan by Aerys and/or Rhaegar.  Which is why everyone coming together at the tower seemed to be resigned to the fact that it was going to be a battle to the death.  The kingsguards swore an oath, they felt duty bound to carry out, and Eddard and company were there to stop the proceedings.  My feeling is that Eddard's promise to Lyanna predated the battle at the toj. 

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4 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I like these flips...;)

I thought so :D Two more things for thought: The Blackfyres flipped the Targaryen coat of arms (and the words?) and the Targaryen maternal line left the family tree with Daemon Blackfyre.

Edit: and of course one more flip I forgot to mention, the one Aemon notices immediately, female and not male.

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Fire consumes and ice preserves.  Melisandre has eyes like red flames while the WW and wights have eyes like blue flame.  The blue heart at the centre of the HoU burns without heat.  Othor and Jafr show no signs of decay.  I bring up the idea of plasma because it's generated by the sun and stars and also by electrical fields.  The hot and the cold.  Cold plasma is used to kill bacteria and preserve food within a shell or container and it also becomes a perfect conductor for electricity and it can exist in a liquid state.  I think the CotF with their cat's eyes and carnivorous teeth are more ominous than we've been led to believe.  Are the wights outside BR's cave serving to keep Bran and company from leaving or is this the outdoor larder?  What about all those bones?

Hodor is terrified of thunder storms.  More so than anything else as we see at Queenscrown.  He hums like an amplifier might before or after an electrical storm.  He's been seen carrying iron anvils around and lightening strikes the tallest person.

If greenseers can command the storms; can they use the storm elemental magic to create white shadows.  

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A wooden stair ascended the south face, anchored on huge rough-hewn beams sunk deep into the ice and frozen in place. Back and forth it switched, clawing its way upward as crooked as a bolt of lightning. - switchback stairs at the Wall

His favorite haunt was the broken tower. Once it had been a watchtower, the tallest in Winterfell. A long time ago, a hundred years before even his father had been born, a lightning strike had set it afire. The top third of the structure had collapsed inward, and the tower had never been rebuilt. Sometimes his father sent ratters into the base of the tower, to clean out the nests they always found among the jumble of fallen stones and charred and rotten beams. But no one ever got up to the jagged top of the structure now except for Bran and the crows.

Bran did his best, although he did not think he ever really fooled her. Since his father would not forbid it, she turned to others. Old Nan told him a story about a bad little boy who climbed too high and was struck down by lightning, and how afterward the crows came to peck out his eyes.

 

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3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Most seem to interpret glass as a mirror.  The Weirwood is gazing into a dark reflection of itself, its shadow, which dances and shimmers.

which would correlate with the River Ash and its pale green florescent lights at night. And I speculate that the shadowbinders eat the fish from the river to augment their power similar to how Bran eats the Jojen paste. 

Oh and btw @LmL since you mentioned Tzcatlipoca, the Maya Ix Chel the red, old, cannibal woman and Goddess I 'white woman' young, and holding a rabbit (Chang'e in Chinese mythology) versions of the moon goddess. 

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1 hour ago, LmL said:

Winterfell is actually described as a “grey stone labyrinth” which “had grown over the centuries like some monstrous tone tree" in AGOT, but of course we have a devouring weirwood at the center of the labyrinth.  Still, the use of labyrinth at Oldtown works well for your idea of Gerold as a minotaur, no doubt. I also agree that George can be using a bull character to work different metaphors - that's part of his brilliance. And I have noticed the sacrificers becoming the sacrificed, certainly, an it happens often with horned animals and people. 

The opening essay for Heresy 193 will be Winterfell

:commie:

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44 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Not to derail here, but while I understand the comparison between Mel's shadows and the white walkers, I think there's another "golem" in the story that represents a spring/summer opposite of the white walkers, and we just don't know this yet because we haven't met them: the Green Men.

Whereas the white walkers represent death, blight, ice, and winter, I think the green men represent life, fertility, earth, and summer; furthermore, I think both are created with essentially similar magic - the magic of the old gods - through similar means and for similar purposes, that they are humans that have been transformed to protect the weirwood. I view them as two sides of the same coin.

IMO, this passage from Asha's Wayward Bride chapter in ADWD alludes to this:
 

 

Yes!! Green Men, the personification of the Oak King and the summer, the Green Man, etc etc. You should really come check out my new essay on zombies, as I see the zombies in ASOIAF fitting into the winter cycle of the horned god / fertility god, with George mixing up all types of different green man myths with the idea of making skinchanger zombies. That's what Jon is going to be, and what the original last hero was (I believe). Sounds like it would be right up your alley :)

And to your quote about the children turning trees to warriors, we have this: 

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“Sam the Slayer!” he said, by way of greeting. “Are you sure you stabbed an Other, and not some child’s snow knight?”

This isn’t starting well. “It was the dragonglass that killed it, my lord,” Sam explained feebly. (ASOS, Sam)

 

An Other is a child's snow knight. There's more of this type of thing to be found as well.

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43 minutes ago, LmL said:

Yes!! Green Men, the personification of the Oak King and the summer, the Green Man, etc etc. 

I'm wary of that quote about "when the greenseers turned the trees to warriors" as it dovetails so closely with Maester Luwin's account of the children wearing bark and leaves by way of camouflage. Nevertheless, it would on the other hand be consistent with my earlier suggestion that the children were already familiar with the changeling magic which was used for the white walkers.

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1 hour ago, LmL said:

Yes!! Green Men, the personification of the Oak King and the summer, the Green Man, etc etc. You should really come check out my new essay on zombies, as I see the zombies in ASOIAF fitting into the winter cycle of the horned god / fertility god, with George mixing up all types of different green man myths with the idea of making skinchanger zombies. That's what Jon is going to be, and what the original last hero was (I believe). Sounds like it would be right up your alley :)

I'm still working through your essay(s) on this subject, but something that stands out to me, that we seem to agree upon, is that Garth Greenhand is explicitly an Oak King/Horned God archetype, while also being described as having a lot of the same superficial qualities as the Green Men--green skin, green hair, antlers like a stag, etc.

Along these lines - and forgive me if this is covered in later essays - but I couldn't help but notice that the "darker" version of Garth Greenhands in the world book evokes certain aspects of what's happening at Craster's Keep:

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A few of the oldest tales of Garth Greenhand present us with a considerably darker deity, one who demanded blood sacrifice from his worshippers to ensure a bountiful harvest.  In some stories the green god dies every autumn when the trees lose their leaves, only to be reborn with the coming of spring.  This version of Garth is largely forgotten.

A "green god" that demands harsh sacrifice for a bountiful harvest doesn't sound all that far off from cold gods that demand harsh sacrifice from those that wish to be protected through a long winter. Just as Garth Greenhand sounds a lot like an Oak King archetype, Craster's cold god(s) sound a lot like a Holly King/Herne the Hunter archetype, with a bit of Crom Cruach thrown in.

I have no formal theory here, but I do have a couple ideas percolating. At a minimum, the tale of Garth Greenhand might give us some general insight into the Green Men, but I'd take that a step further and suggest there may have been a sort of hierarchy of magical beings during the Age of Heroes-- an "Oak King" (gardener king?) to rule the spring and summer, who could create new green men to help with his sacred duties, and a "Holly King" (night's king? barrow king? king of winter?) to rule autumn and winter, who could create new white walkers.

 

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

I'm wary of that quote about "when the greenseers turned the trees to warriors" as it dovetails so closely with Maester Luwin's account of the children wearing bark and leaves by way of camouflage.


Yes, that is one interpretation of the Asha quote, but not the only one, and you certainly don't need the help of the greenseers to make armor out of bark--their inclusion in the legend is a bit more suggestive of magic. I'll also note that the ritual of the NK's creation, as depicted in the show, utilizes a heart tree--not the same as literally turning a tree into a warrior, but the tree is playing a role in creating the warrior.

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Drowned Men versus Nights Watch

In the Iron Islands a “drowned man” is a convert to the faith of the Drowned God. Their baptism is a literal drowning. They are then resuscitated back to life with something close to CPR, so that they can rise again stronger and harder. In The Drowned Man AFFC chpt 19 Damphair made his way out of the water and across the strand when a drowned man returning from the call of nature stumbled into him in the darkness. “Damphair,” he murmured. Aeron laid a hand upon his head and blessed him. IMO Aemon Targaryen is a parallel inversion to Aeron Greyjoy. I can imagine a blind Aemon Targaryen making his way along the Wall and stumbling into another man of the Nights Watch. The area north of the Wall symbolically is a great northern sea. Patchface says that the north is upside down so everybody at the Wall and north of it is underwater effectively making the black brothers of the Nights Watch “drowned men”.

Nagga’s ribs are situated on the crown of a hill, forty-four monstrous stone ribs rising up like the trunks of great trees. It’s said she had fed on krakens and leviathans and drowned whole islands in her wrath, yet the Grey King had slain her and the Drowned God had changed her bones to stone. 

What could be Nagga’s parallel in Aemon’s time? Certainly the Wall is wondrous to behold, and monstrous. The kraken is the sigil of the Greyjoys, and the dragon is the sigil of the Targaryens, but what is a leviathan? The Bible describes leviathans as great sea monsters. Ancient eastern origins describe leviathans as a seven headed serpent. Euron cut Baelor Blacktyde into seven pieces symbolizing his intent to tear Westeros apart. The inversion to this would be the Targaryen’s unification of the Seven Kingdoms by adopting the Faith of the Seven. There’s also the possibility that the leviathan symbolism is the growing danger coming from the northern sea. The Drowned God would certainly fit as a parallel to the old gods of the Children since they were forced north when the Targaryens adopted the Faith of the Seven.

The Grey King that turned Nagga’s ribs to stone sounds similar to the Grey Lord who was also Prince Garin the Great, a historical figure of the Rhoynar who beseeched Mother Rhoyne to curse the men of Volantis and Valyria with a damp fog that causes greyscale. Greyscale eventually consumes it’s victim turning the flesh to stone. The Grey King of the Greyjoys turned Nagga’s ribs to stone. So they have “turning things into stone” in common. 

In the great northern sea the dead "drowned men" rise as wights when it is dark and the cold wind is rising. There is no name for wightification and no lord or king is blamed, but the Grey King could also be said to parallel the Nights King. Aeron recalled that it was at Nagga’s ribs where the Grey King took his mermaid wife and planned his wars against the Storm God, whereas the Nights King spied his Nights Queen from atop the Wall, and together they ensorcelling the Watch, bent them to his will, and sacrificed children to the Others.

Damphair tells his followers: “We were born from the sea, and to the sea we all return. The Storm God in his wrath plucked Balon from his castle and cast him down, yet now he feasts beneath the waves in the Drowned God’s watery halls.”….”Yet what is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger!”

Once a man of the Nights Watch takes his vows, he cannot leave. Their vows are said either in a sept or before a hearttree: “Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post….”

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1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

I'm still working through your essay(s) on this subject, but something that stands out to me, that we seem to agree upon, is that Garth Greenhand is explicitly an Oak King/Horned God archetype, while also being described as having a lot of the same superficial qualities as the Green Men--green skin, green hair, antlers like a stag, etc.

Along these lines - and forgive me if this is covered in later essays - but I couldn't help but notice that the "darker" version of Garth Greenhands in the world book evokes certain aspects of what's happening at Craster's Keep:

A "green god" that demands harsh sacrifice for a bountiful harvest doesn't sound all that far off from cold gods that demand harsh sacrifice from those that wish to be protected through a long winter. Just as Garth Greenhand sounds a lot like an Oak King archetype, Craster's cold god(s) sound a lot like a Holly King/Herne the Hunter archetype, with a bit of Crom Cruach thrown in.

I have no formal theory here, but I do have a couple ideas percolating. At a minimum, the tale of Garth Greenhand might give us some general insight into the Green Men, but I'd take that a step further and suggest there may have been a sort of hierarchy of magical beings during the Age of Heroes-- an "Oak King" (gardener king?) to rule the spring and summer, who could create new green men to help with his sacred duties, and a "Holly King" (night's king? barrow king? king of winter?) to rule autumn and winter, who could create new white walkers.

 


Yes, that is one interpretation of the Asha quote, but not the only one, and you certainly don't need the help of the greenseers to make armor out of bark--their inclusion in the legend is a bit more suggestive of magic. I'll also note that the ritual of the NK's creation, as depicted in the show, utilizes a heart tree--not the same as literally turning a tree into a warrior, but the tree is playing a role in creating the warrior.

 I have a feeling what we saw on the show was a simplified version of the truth, and I took the involvement of a Weirwood to indicate that yes, we are which are involved in making the others. I don't think we can really draw any more specific conclusions than that, but it's probably no accident the victim was up against a Weirwood. 

As for the rest, yes – keep reading. I definitely talk a lot about the king of winter in part two, as well as the Barrow Kings.  I had not thought too much about how crafter might be fitting into the horned god ideas, but you raise a good point there. I did bring up hernenthe hunter in relation to coldhands, and also the ancestors of house Tarly, who are named Harlan the Hunter and Herndon of the Horn. Coldhands in particular seems like a very nice manifestation of the ghost version of the horned god figure that is Herne the Hunter. 

Anyway when you are finished, come on over to the zombie thread and leave some comments. It's good to get peoples eyes on these ideas who are familiar with the mythology behind them. I definitely don't catch everything,  people like ravenous reader and blue tiger and PKJ always have helpful tidbits to add. The main thing I have discovered is that the horn to God green man ideas are not just background fodder in a song of ice and fire – they are right at the heart of the matter.  The job of the last hero is the same job as the fertility God – to turn the seasons. The fertility gods always do this by dying and being resurrected, and thus Jon's death is not merely a cliffhanger.  he has to become a zombie in order to be the new last hero, and I think the original last hero had to become a zombie as well. His 12 "dead" companions are highly suspect too, in my opinion. 

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I'd really like to try to keep the discussion on parallel inversions. :)

I posted some parallel inversions between the followers of the Drowned God and the Nights Watch, and I'm also going to drop some parallels between Asha Greyjoy and Rhaella Targaryen.

Asha versus Rhaella - Part 1

When Damphair told Balon that Theon was a weakling, Balon said he prayed that the wolves would kill him so that he wouldn’t stand in Asha’s way. Damphair thought Balon was blind if he believed Asha could succeed him. Aeron tried to tell him that no woman will ever rule the ironborn, not even a woman such as Asha, but Balon did not wish to hear.

When the death of King Aerys I left no clear heir, Lord Brynden Rivers as Hand of the King called for a Great Council to decide who would inherit the Iron Throne. The merits of each living Targaryen were discussed. There have been several Great Councils during the Targaryen reign, but a woman has never been selected.

After the death of King Balon, Damphair believed Victarion should rule though Euron was the elder brother, and even though Theon and Asha, having the more lawful claim, would come before them both. Aeron dismisses both children of Balon as unfit, and claims Euron cannot be king because he’s godless.

Aenys Blackfyre petitioned the Great Council to peacefully be considered has heir to the throne. Bloodraven offered Aenys safe conduct to Kings Landing, but once he arrived he was arrested and beheaded. Euron is equally skilled as Bloodraven. He’s cunning, shrewd, and ruthless. Aenys Blackfyre’s parallel is Baelor Blacktyde. Baelor was an Asha supporter at the kingsmoot. He refused to acknowledge Euron and attempted to leave, but Victarion blocked his way and Baelor is delivered to King Euron in chains. As punishment for his refusal to recognize his new liege, he is cut into seven pieces representing his faith to the Seven by Euron’s crew. Euron claims Baelor’s sable cloak for himself.

The Reader (Rodrik Harlaw) had sent ravens summoning all of Asha’s friends to Harlaw, because he believed that Balon meant for her to sit the Seastone Chair. He did this, even though privately he told Asha that the Ironborn would never select a woman.

The Great Council was responsible for choosing the next heir to the Iron Throne. Asha parallels, not only Rhaella, but she could equally be reliving Rhaenyra Targaryen, first-born child of King Viserys I who was passed over by her younger half-brother Aegon II sparking the civil war known as the Dance of the Dragons. Speaking of dragons, Asha’s ship Black Wind brings to mind Aegon’s dragon, Balerion the Black Dread, and Balerion does sound a little like Balon.

 

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Asha versus Rhaella - Part 2

At the kingsmoot Asha named all the northern holdfasts that the Ironborn held: Moat Cailin, Deepwood Motte, Torrhen’s Square, even Winterfell, but she asks what do we have to show for it? She calls her supporters her Black Wind men. This name may symbolic of Balerion the Black Dread, one of the three great dragons of Aegon the Conqueror. Asha’s men dump out the “riches” of the north: pebbles from the Stony Shore, pinecones from Deepwood Motte, and turnips from Winterfell. Asha’s point is that political peace is more valuable than plunder. Many men cheered for Asha, but they were shouted down by, “No craven’s peace!” and then calls for Victarion. I wonder if the three chests Asha empties represent the three houses of Arryns, Manderlys, and Starks that supported Rhaenyra’s claim for the Iron Throne? These houses were also on the same side again for Robert’s Rebellion.

Rhaegar gathered supporters under the guise of a tourney at Harrenhal, and as readers we assumed that he was gathering support for himself, but what if he meant to support his mother, Rhaella? Certainly she would have the more lawful claim should Aerys die. 

Asha waited at Ten Towers to see which men will answer her uncle’s call to come and support her claim to the Seastone Chair. “Too few,” she thinks, “too few by far.”

The Red Keep is the castle in Kings Landing and is home to the royal family. It has seven massive drum-towers with iron ramparts, and three inner towers: Maegor’s Holdfast, Tower of the Hand, and the White Sword Tower.

Rodrik, nicknamed the Reader, is Lord of Harlaw and Asha’s favorite uncle. Rodrik reads so much that he has requested a Myrish lense to assist with his vision. He keeps septons at Ten Towers just to take care of his books. In this chapter he is reading Archmaester Marwyn’s Book of Lost Books.

Rhaella’s eldest and favorite son, Rhaegar read obsessively as a child, to the point that jests were made about him reading with a candle in Rhaella’s womb. He became a noted fighter because of something that he had read in an old book had motivated him to become a warrior.

 

 

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Asha versus Rhaella - Part 3

When Asha was looking for her uncle Rodrik, she turned to Three-Tooth, an old woman who had been her uncle’s steward since she was known as Twelve-Tooth, or for as long as Asha could remember. The woman was so old that a septon once quipped that she must have nursed the Crone. When Asha arrived to Ten Towers, she sailed in on her ship, Black Wind with captives Lady Sybelle Glover of Deepwood Motte with her son Gawen and infant daughter Erena. She was concerned for Lady Glover’s comfort and for the well being of her children. She is particularly worried about the health of the infant and tells Three-Tooth that if the babe were to die, no one will be sorrier than you. To me this echoes both an infant Rhaegar born at Summerhall, and his and Elia’s son Aegon.

Rhaella’s uncle, Prince Duncan married Jenny of Oldstones who brought an old wood’s witch to court. This old woman prophesied that the prince that was promised would be born from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. When King Jaehaerys II heard the prophecy he arranged the marriage between his two children.

Asha’s Lady mother Alannys, and aunt Lady Gwynesse have both settled themselves into the Widow’s Tower at Ten Towers. Lady Alannys is described as frail and sickly, and Lady Gwynesse continues to mourn for a husband long dead and walks around muttering how Ten Towers should be hers because she is older than her brother Rodrik. 

At the Red Keep, Rhaella would have been near two similar women as Asha. Princess Elia of Dorne’s quarters were in Maegor’s Holdfast and she has been described as frail and sickly, while Cersei was angry that she didn't get to marry Rhaegar, and would have been walking around muttering that she should be Tywin’s heir since she was older than Jaime.

Lady Alannys grieved for two sons, Rodrik and Maron who were killed during Balon’s uprising against King Robert. Princess Elia gave birth to two children, though the birth of Rhaenys left her bed ridden for half a year, and she nearly died giving birth to Aegon. Both children were killed when Robert’s forces sacked Kings Landing. If Lady Alannys is more like Elia, then Lady Glover is someone else. Possible candiates are Ashara or Lyanna.

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Asha versus Rhaella - Part 4 (last one!)

There is much talk about the kingsmoot, which Asha initially thinks, This is something new…or rather, something very old. The Targaryens had their own “kingsmoots”. Whenever there wasn’t a clear heir a Great Council was called. More than once a Great Council would pass over a female Targaryen heir in favor of a younger son just like the Ironborn are doing to Asha. Rodrik sighs, “You will not want to hear this, Asha, but you will not be chosen. No woman has ever ruled the ironborn.” 

Rodrik prays the kingsmoot is not bloody since the last time the Ironborn met four thousand years ago for a kingsmoot, Nagga’s ribs turned red with the gore. Likewise, each Great Council the Targaryens called resulted in bloodshed.

Rodrik tells Asha that a kingsmoot and a dream of kingship is a madness in their blood. It’s land they need, not crowns. This line of thinking struck me as being similar to when Aegon the Conqueror came to Westeros. His family had the small island of Dragonstone after the Doom, and it may have been that more land was needed, but the dream of kingship was a madness in his blood and he took Westeros with his dragons instead of working peacefully in order to improve the lot of his people. Pyke is very much like Dragonstone. Both are small stony outcroppings that don’t provide enough resources for their people. Rodrik urges Asha to make common cause with either Stannis or Tywin to improve the lot of the Ironborn. If they help one of them win then they can claim the land that they need from a grateful king.

Rodrik councils Asha that the Old Way of reaving by ship served them well when the isles were but one small kingdom amongst many, but Aegon’s Conquest put an end to that. What is ironic is that the same could be said for Aegon. Having dragons served them well when Valyria was full of dragonlords, but after all the other families perished in the Doom he abused his powerful dragons to take the Seven Kingdoms for his own by conquest rather than by peaceful negotiation.

 

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19 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I'd really like to try to keep the discussion on parallel inversions. :)

 

Hey, I told homeboy to bring his horned God ideas over to my thread :) 

As for your link between Others and drowned men, have you noticed the line where Aeron is wandering the strand (the scene you quoted from) and Goodbrother says "I would not speak of these things in front of these others," referring to the drowned men, and Aeron says "these others are my drowned men." The drowned men themselves grip driftwood cudgels as hard as iron in their hands, where as the wights have hands as hard as iron. And of course, rising harder and stronger sounds like wighting. I am by no means sold that the entire north of the Wall is meant to be perceived as "under the sea," but I thought you might like that quote. Also, the Grey King's beard and hair is "as grey as a winter sea," which makes you think of a winter seer. Of course Grey King sat on a weirwood throne and wore a weirwood crown in all likelihood, so he's already a greenseer figure, quite possibly a dead one since he lived for a really long time and his skin turned grey. A dead greenseer is essentially the truth behind the King of Winter, I believe, so there's another link between Grey King and the Starks. Finally, when Theon is in WF for the fake Arya wedding abomination, he notices that he looks like an old man with grey skin (think Grey King) and thinks "finally a Stark now." The implication is of the Grey King becoming or being a Stark. 

Also, you said that you see Aeron and Aemon as parallel, but you did not say why. What's the link again?

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11 hours ago, LmL said:

Hey, I told homeboy to bring his horned God ideas over to my thread :) 

As for your link between Others and drowned men, have you noticed the line where Aeron is wandering the strand (the scene you quoted from) and Goodbrother says "I would not speak of these things in front of these others," referring to the drowned men, and Aeron says "these others are my drowned men." The drowned men themselves grip driftwood cudgels as hard as iron in their hands, where as the wights have hands as hard as iron. And of course, rising harder and stronger sounds like wighting. I am by no means sold that the entire north of the Wall is meant to be perceived as "under the sea," but I thought you might like that quote. Also, the Grey King's beard and hair is "as grey as a winter sea," which makes you think of a winter seer. Of course Grey King sat on a weirwood throne and wore a weirwood crown in all likelihood, so he's already a greenseer figure, quite possibly a dead one since he lived for a really long time and his skin turned grey. A dead greenseer is essentially the truth behind the King of Winter, I believe, so there's another link between Grey King and the Starks. Finally, when Theon is in WF for the fake Arya wedding abomination, he notices that he looks like an old man with grey skin (think Grey King) and thinks "finally a Stark now." The implication is of the Grey King becoming or being a Stark. 

Also, you said that you see Aeron and Aemon as parallel, but you did not say why. What's the link again?

I know, LmL...and I appreciate it. I was just trying to gently steer this ship.

As a maester, Aemon cared for his "drowned men" of the Nights Watch. He was their moral compass and they would strain to hear his whisper soft voice when he gave council. I had commented that he would have encountered the men in the tunnels touching an arm or hand in passing just like Damphair in a crowd.

And of course Patchface is a drowned prophet currently at the Wall preaching his Jabberwocky.

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On 12/5/2016 at 11:43 PM, Black Crow said:

:agree:

At most the repetition is a means of adding more depth to what we're seeing in the present

Oh i do believe that one use of the thematic repetition is to give it more depth,but i'm mainly on the side of it being cyclical in nature.If you are familiar with the concept of "extinction cycles" in our world you can see the same tell tale signs in this story. I've longed believe amidst the many themes in the story is us witnessing another cycle coming to a close.The messed up thing about this story and we have spoken about it before is the lack of progress made in Westeros. I mean they have made no gains at all as a culture.They are exactly the same today as they were 8,000 yrs ago

On 12/5/2016 at 11:47 PM, Black Crow said:

Exactly so, which is why I'm so wary of taking that business of Rhaegar [in the vision] responding that his son already has a song; the Song of Ice and Fire. It doesn't belong to him at all but rather he has a part to play.

In exactly the same way this whole series of novels is collectively entitled the Song of Ice and Fire; its a song which encompasses all of the characters, not just a single chosen one.

I think that this cannot be stated enough.As far as Rhaegar was concerned his son was part of something and if we include what Mel said.It is the same song that has been around since the beginning of time.What i think is interesting is the perspective of the individuals and ours too.Why are some of us in the mindset to see things as fire being good and cold being bad.This is where @Feather Crystal inversion may come in.The whole cold as bad and fire as distinctly good.Could it be some place in the middle where as we've also talked about good and bad being fought in the heart.

Reminds me of that Cherokee proverb

Quote

“A fight is going on inside me,” he said to the boy.“It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil – he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.” He continued, “The other is good – he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. The same fight is going on inside you – and inside every other person, too.”The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, “Which wolf will win?”The old Cherokee simply replied, “The one you feed.

except in this case the identity of which wolf is which is kept hidden.

On 12/6/2016 at 4:09 AM, Armstark said:

Keeping in line with the theme of endless similarities/inversions/patterns I want to point out that the three cracks that announce the rebirth of dragons and the breaking of the world are mirrored with the White Walkers always being announced by three blasts. The same pattern can be seen with patchface's triple oh,oh,oh or the raven's corn,corn,corn

Ohhh i like this,i like this a lot.

On 12/6/2016 at 9:26 AM, ravenous reader said:

 In keeping with the theme of inversions, Satan is an anagram of Santa, who likewise gives a throaty chuckle.  Bloodraven too:

From this passage, we not only get the idea that one person may play different roles (and wear different names), but also that one name or a variation thereof (e.g. Brandon/Brynden) may be shared by multiple people -- implying they might represent 'echoes' or even 'inversions' of one another over time as some of you have mentioned.

This is a good summary of how and why the Satan/Santa duality developed:

@Cowboy Dan  Thank you for your kind words.  I've admired your posts from afar, so glad we have made contact.  I have much to say regarding your current observations, particularly all things Jaime and A+J=J+-C...I am sold on my 'obsession' in that respect, although no-one around me ever seems as keen, so glad I have found someone who shares that compelling, albeit unorthodox, view of mine (sadly the fandom has been duped by Yandel into dismissing the overwhelming symbolic evidence!)  I will write more shortly .:)

The Santa/Satan analogy lay in line with something talked on here a lot...The Oak and Holly king two side of the same coin,both battling for the rule in their turn within the Wheel of the year.In some myths they are the same with two aspects.

In others two brothers. Renly and Stannis are very good examples of this.With Renly the green,youthful being opposite to Stannis who is older and more cold.

It is one of my theories that we haven't yet scratched the surface when it comes to who the man in in the weirwood throne is.If we use what VSixskins was going to do to Thistle and take into consideration that him loosing his gift to skinchange was based on Thistle the possibilities are immense. What if BR isn't BR but Bran the Builder with the help of the COTF luring those with "the gift" and taking their bodies so he can essentially live forever.How this relates to this topic lay in the ultimate meaning behind Ouroborus "one is all" and i'm not sure @Feather Crystal " labeling your findings as inversion does it justice.We are talking about a cycle being played out with different players but ultimately the cycle is the same.The goal for some is the same..Immortality.

On 12/6/2016 at 10:19 AM, Feather Crystal said:

 

 

YES! The spotted Children! IMO anything spotted is destined to be sacrificed for the benefit of someone else.

 

I like this.And i can't help but think of the story of Esau and Jacob.Jacob who tricked his father into thinking he was his brother stole his blessing as the first born.Fast forward years later when he is with Laban working toward marrying Rachael Laban purposely gave him all the spotted livestock (seen as bad) and kept the ones without blemish.Joke was on him because the spotted multiplied and produced livestock without blemish anyway.

It may be an inversion because spotted from a biblical sense is not worthy of sacrificed as its seen as unclean. The book of Enoch actually gives the reason behind this aversion to "spotted and blemished" in a parable. God had a farm basically with white live stock and during the night a thief broke in with his livestock and had them mate with God's flock creating the spotted.

Some say this was a story really about the angles coming down and getting freaky with the daughters of men mixing the bloodlines of two things that should never be.

On 12/6/2016 at 2:13 PM, Black Crow said:

Returning for a moment to songs, there's this interesting passage in the first Bran chapter in Clash of Kings:

 

...and he loved to listen to the direwolves sing to the stars.

Of late, he often dreamed of wolves. They are talking to me, brother to brother. he told himself when the direwolves howled. He could almost understand them... not quite, not truly but almost... as if they were singing in a language he had once known and somehow forgotten

I truly love this passage.I think George has incorporated the music of the spheres here.The Starks and the Direwolves are corresponding notes.So to possibly are the Targs to their Dragons.

On 12/6/2016 at 10:18 PM, ravenous reader said:

Ice is fire in suspended animation.

Interesting take on it.

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

As a maester, Aemon cared for his "drowned men" of the Nights Watch. He was their moral compass and they would strain to hear his whisper soft voice when he gave council. I had commented that he would have encountered the men in the tunnels touching an arm or hand in passing just like Damphair in a crowd.

And of course Patchface is a drowned prophet currently at the Wall preaching his Jabberwocky.

A drowned prophet with horns:D

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