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Heresy 192 The Wheel of Time


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8 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I'm still working through your essay(s) on this subject, but something that stands out to me, that we seem to agree upon, is that Garth Greenhand is explicitly an Oak King/Horned God archetype, while also being described as having a lot of the same superficial qualities as the Green Men--green skin, green hair, antlers like a stag, etc.

Along these lines - and forgive me if this is covered in later essays - but I couldn't help but notice that the "darker" version of Garth Greenhands in the world book evokes certain aspects of what's happening at Craster's Keep:

A "green god" that demands harsh sacrifice for a bountiful harvest doesn't sound all that far off from cold gods that demand harsh sacrifice from those that wish to be protected through a long winter. Just as Garth Greenhand sounds a lot like an Oak King archetype, Craster's cold god(s) sound a lot like a Holly King/Herne the Hunter archetype, with a bit of Crom Cruach thrown in.

I have no formal theory here, but I do have a couple ideas percolating. At a minimum, the tale of Garth Greenhand might give us some general insight into the Green Men, but I'd take that a step further and suggest there may have been a sort of hierarchy of magical beings during the Age of Heroes-- an "Oak King" (gardener king?) to rule the spring and summer, who could create new green men to help with his sacred duties, and a "Holly King" (night's king? barrow king? king of winter?) to rule autumn and winter, who could create new white walkers.

Oh I think that there's no doubting there is a Summer King/Winter King or if you prefer Oak King/Holly King underpinning all of this and I've no doubt as to both creating their own shadow warriors using the same magic.

That theme is obviously cyclical, but may as I suggested before have been screwed by one of the Kings either refusing to go into the ground at the appointed time - or being slain out of time. Either scenario could fit the Nights King. 

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6 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Oh i do believe that one use of the thematic repetition is to give it more depth,but i'm mainly on the side of it being cyclical in nature.If you are familiar with the concept of "extinction cycles" in our world you can see the same tell tale signs in this story. I've longed believe amidst the many themes in the story is us witnessing another cycle coming to a close.The messed up thing about this story and we have spoken about it before is the lack of progress made in Westeros. I mean they have made no gains at all as a culture.They are exactly the same today as they were 8,000 yrs ago

I think that this cannot be stated enough.As far as Rhaegar was concerned his son was part of something and if we include what Mel said.It is the same song that has been around since the beginning of time.What i think is interesting is the perspective of the individuals and ours too.Why are some of us in the mindset to see things as fire being good and cold being bad.This is where @Feather Crystal inversion may come in.The whole cold as bad and fire as distinctly good.Could it be some place in the middle where as we've also talked about good and bad being fought in the heart.

Reminds me of that Cherokee proverb

except in this case the identity of which wolf is which is kept hidden.

Ohhh i like this,i like this a lot.

The Santa/Satan analogy lay in line with something talked on here a lot...The Oak and Holly king two side of the same coin,both battling for the rule in their turn within the Wheel of the year.In some myths they are the same with two aspects.

In others two brothers. Renly and Stannis are very good examples of this.With Renly the green,youthful being opposite to Stannis who is older and more cold.

It is one of my theories that we haven't yet scratched the surface when it comes to who the man in in the weirwood throne is.If we use what VSixskins was going to do to Thistle and take into consideration that him loosing his gift to skinchange was based on Thistle the possibilities are immense. What if BR isn't BR but Bran the Builder with the help of the COTF luring those with "the gift" and taking their bodies so he can essentially live forever.How this relates to this topic lay in the ultimate meaning behind Ouroborus "one is all" and i'm not sure @Feather Crystal " labeling your findings as inversion does it justice.We are talking about a cycle being played out with different players but ultimately the cycle is the same.The goal for some is the same..Immortality.

I like this.And i can't help but think of the story of Esau and Jacob.Jacob who tricked his father into thinking he was his brother stole his blessing as the first born.Fast forward years later when he is with Laban working toward marrying Rachael Laban purposely gave him all the spotted livestock (seen as bad) and kept the ones without blemish.Joke was on him because the spotted multiplied and produced livestock without blemish anyway.

It may be an inversion because spotted from a biblical sense is not worthy of sacrificed as its seen as unclean. The book of Enoch actually gives the reason behind this aversion to "spotted and blemished" in a parable. God had a farm basically with white live stock and during the night a thief broke in with his livestock and had them mate with God's flock creating the spotted.

Some say this was a story really about the angles coming down and getting freaky with the daughters of men mixing the bloodlines of two things that should never be.

I truly love this passage.I think George has incorporated the music of the spheres here.The Starks and the Direwolves are corresponding notes.So to possibly are the Targs to their Dragons.

Interesting take on it.

A drowned prophet with horns:D

Lest anyone mistake me, I am not saying one side is bad or good. The two sides are neither bad nor good, just two sides of the same coin. Thus the inversions are just the other side of the coin too...the other side of the cycle. There is an ouroboros, but like PrettyPig pointed out wheels can turn in either direction and IMO it is currently running in reverse undoing the harm the Children believe their three swords caused. That's not to say that there couldn't be two factions of Children. The remaining living Children may be the ones trying to reverse the damage, while the dead godhead may be the "wroth" side.

I just want to point out that geographically the Iron Islands and Dragonstone are physically on opposite sides of Westeros from each other, just as Casterly Rock and Dorne. Surely the readers of this thread have noticed the parallel inversions to the two sides? What happened in the west of Casterly Rock is now happening in reverse in the east in Dorne, and what happened in the east with the Blackfyres and Targaryens are now happening inversely to the Greyjoys in the west. What are the explanations for this and why does it seem like the Drowned God is north of the Wall? I've tried to answer these questions with the parallel inversion theory, but are there other explanations?

 

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9 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Oh i do believe that one use of the thematic repetition is to give it more depth,but i'm mainly on the side of it being cyclical in nature.If you are familiar with the concept of "extinction cycles" in our world you can see the same tell tale signs in this story. I've longed believe amidst the many themes in the story is us witnessing another cycle coming to a close.The messed up thing about this story and we have spoken about it before is the lack of progress made in Westeros. I mean they have made no gains at all as a culture.They are exactly the same today as they were 8,000 yrs ago

We are very much in agreement on this. There is a never ending cycle of seasons, heroes rise and empires fall - endlessly. The seasons may be screwed because something went wrong with the Summer King/Winter King handover, but essentially its still going on. I think that the thematic repetition is there both to provide more depth and to emphasise the cyclical nature of the history - a cycle that may not necessarily be as long as we've been told - but beyond that; to read more significance into the parallels is I think going too far.

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10 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Oh i do believe that one use of the thematic repetition is to give it more depth,but i'm mainly on the side of it being cyclical in nature.If you are familiar with the concept of "extinction cycles" in our world you can see the same tell tale signs in this story. I've longed believe amidst the many themes in the story is us witnessing another cycle coming to a close.The messed up thing about this story and we have spoken about it before is the lack of progress made in Westeros. I mean they have made no gains at all as a culture.They are exactly the same today as they were 8,000 yrs ago

I think that this cannot be stated enough.As far as Rhaegar was concerned his son was part of something and if we include what Mel said.It is the same song that has been around since the beginning of time.What i think is interesting is the perspective of the individuals and ours too.Why are some of us in the mindset to see things as fire being good and cold being bad.This is where @Feather Crystal inversion may come in.The whole cold as bad and fire as distinctly good.Could it be some place in the middle where as we've also talked about good and bad being fought in the heart.

Reminds me of that Cherokee proverb

except in this case the identity of which wolf is which is kept hidden.

Ohhh i like this,i like this a lot.

The Santa/Satan analogy lay in line with something talked on here a lot...The Oak and Holly king two side of the same coin,both battling for the rule in their turn within the Wheel of the year.In some myths they are the same with two aspects.

In others two brothers. Renly and Stannis are very good examples of this.With Renly the green,youthful being opposite to Stannis who is older and more cold.

It is one of my theories that we haven't yet scratched the surface when it comes to who the man in in the weirwood throne is.If we use what VSixskins was going to do to Thistle and take into consideration that him loosing his gift to skinchange was based on Thistle the possibilities are immense. What if BR isn't BR but Bran the Builder with the help of the COTF luring those with "the gift" and taking their bodies so he can essentially live forever.How this relates to this topic lay in the ultimate meaning behind Ouroborus "one is all" and i'm not sure @Feather Crystal " labeling your findings as inversion does it justice.We are talking about a cycle being played out with different players but ultimately the cycle is the same.The goal for some is the same..Immortality.

I like this.And i can't help but think of the story of Esau and Jacob.Jacob who tricked his father into thinking he was his brother stole his blessing as the first born.Fast forward years later when he is with Laban working toward marrying Rachael Laban purposely gave him all the spotted livestock (seen as bad) and kept the ones without blemish.Joke was on him because the spotted multiplied and produced livestock without blemish anyway.

It may be an inversion because spotted from a biblical sense is not worthy of sacrificed as its seen as unclean. The book of Enoch actually gives the reason behind this aversion to "spotted and blemished" in a parable. God had a farm basically with white live stock and during the night a thief broke in with his livestock and had them mate with God's flock creating the spotted.

Some say this was a story really about the angles coming down and getting freaky with the daughters of men mixing the bloodlines of two things that should never be.

I truly love this passage.I think George has incorporated the music of the spheres here.The Starks and the Direwolves are corresponding notes.So to possibly are the Targs to their Dragons.

Interesting take on it.

A drowned prophet with horns:D

You know, after reading this and something LynnS told me, "sacrificed" was not the correct word for what I think it means to be "spotted". "Treachery" is better. 

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1 hour ago, Cowboy Dan said:

Long winded post that answers much and more. I am derailing this thread but it's for a purpose and heresy is the fitting place for the discussion. Follow me here.

Lord of Life, Lord of Death

That is the 64,000 dollar question is it not? Well Neon is also a Noble Gas, inert. As was pointed out, as far as we've seen there's no magic that can create life even though it may seem that way with fire magic.

Grey-green is specifically attached to the notion of rotting bodies at Maidenpool.

The weirwood would be the seventh, the Stranger staring down at the death and destruction he caused. Littlefinger is constantly associated with grey-green eyes and is the catalyst for the War of the Five Kings. There are three songs being sung: ice and fire, earth and sky, stone and sea. We are given a veritable rainbow of choices with which to choose who we should follow. I'll come back to this but I gotta digress pretty far first.

With Molech the initials used is MLK meaning "king." Martin Luther King, Junior was a reformer who preached tolerance for all and a land where everyone would be included, his dream. Martin Luther was a reformer who preached against the use of money to buy one's way into salvation stating that the Bible was the only true word of God and salvation was a gift he gave freely. He created the sect of Lutheranism which believed all baptised christians to be part of a holy priesthood. Which priesthood grants a gift to any wishing to accept it? The House of Black and White who only deal in death. Of course Azor Ahai is the black-blooded man-god and what is wrong with the black blood?

The original horned lord symbol is Baphomet, associated with the Knights Templar whose sigil was a red cross on a white field, also known as the order of Solomon's Temple and we are hearing the Song of Solomon ((S)ave Our (Souls)). They were known for being extremely secretive and vanished in a very short time, almost as if over night. They have quite a few legends and their known stashes of treasure are extremely well hidden and guarded (warded) so that if anyone attempts to access them it would collapse on its self. Collapsing is a word often associated with towers and what is a well digging deep into the earth but an inverted tower? The first time collapse is used is the round tower of Winterfell by a lightning strike, a hundred years before Bran's father had been born. Keep that in mind, I'll return to it. Before moving on though I would like to point out Baphomet is the Androgyne, neither masuline or feminine but both and is often depicted as having two moons, one white and one black, one fiery and one dark, along with having the fire of life above his head, the stone of death below his ass (donkey or you could say horse's ass) and in between at the groin, the "seat of power", is the Caduceus (Cad you, Zeus!), the symbol of medicine that has two snakes (dragons) in an endless war around a staff, a symbol for a timeline. Sometimes instead of a caduceus Baphomet is depicted holding two staffs, each symbolizing a face of the moon, dark and light. In Tarot he is the 18th Major Arcana, Diablo, described as not evil but hungry and lustful, the id incarnate, or in the language of ice and fire : fire made flesh.

You see, the greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing the world he didn't exist.

Herbal Kint, the crippled fool and least likely suspect is the master mind. His feigned weakness allows him to pass unnoticed in the eyes of his hubristic antagonist. In weakness and humility there is strength.

This is how the Lord of Death, who believed himself master over all he purveyed was outplayed by the Lord of Life.

We are heretics and blasphemers, sinners in the hands of an angry god. But that god is an asshole and doesn't deserve our faith.

The Monomyth : The Rise and Fall of Universes ; or : Motherfuckin' Homestuck

What the hell is a Homestuck you might be wondering. Well it's a brilliant little webcomic by Andrew Hussie, a gaunt, gangly awkward motherfucker with a mind like a diamond. A pastiche of all things internet, it pretty much caters to so many different things I witnessed growing up from video games, chat forums, internet trolls, and it don't stop (his second webcomic). It's pretty much trying to nail everything of around the last 20 years in pop culture, akin to Dostoevsky trying to encapsulate the human condition during his era by way of writing a philosophical masterpiece. Also it's one of the most inventive and hilarious things I've ever laid eyes on while ultimately being about a group of friends having a good time. It is ~8000 pages. If that seems daunting then go for Problem Sleuth, it has a much quicker build up and resolution at a quarter of the length, 2000 pages. Same story, different minutiae.

Note this is the 4th piece of work he has created, an important number, as the comic began on 4/13/09. In Homestuck 4 friends each 13 years old attempt to play a game of which they know nothing. Conversely the song of ice and fire has 14 year olds in sets of 3's. Of the four they are bifurcated into two pairs, male and female. After much tomfoolery and shenanigans they get the game started but there is a catch. The first player to start the game, John Egbert, is given the handle ectoBiologist, which could be interpreted as a student of the lives of ghosts. This is very important, as each of the other three kids hold names that use the letters of DNA. I'm not going to get into all the mechanics but the manner in which they are pulled into the game is highly circuitous. Once in the game a countdown timer begins. This timer, as John finds out, is linked to a meteor aimed directly at his house. Turns out playing the game causes the destruction of the world, Ragnarok. John creates the blue apple (which drops from a tree)  and enters the Medium, a black and white chessboard of a world that contains two moons, one gold the other purple, and each have a smaller orbiting moon satellite which is chained to them.

The gold moon is Prospit and at the center of the Medium is Skaia, a blue and white sun analogue. The fiery moon meteors attempt to destroy it but the gate defenses kick in, scattering the poison stars throughout spacetime, known as Paradox Space, which runs on Dependent Origination/Arising I mentioned earlier in this thread.

This is taking far too long so I need to speed this up. Imperfect action is preferable to perfect inaction.

As things progress the kids learn the true purpose of the game : following the Hero's Journey to achieve godhood and seed a new planet/universe. The kids begin getting messages from inauspicious trolls, each with a different color and typing quirk. Eventually the kids learn that the trolls play sgrub their counterpart to sburb (the game being played). It turns out that as the trolls had beaten their game and were about to claim their prize of godhood and rulers of a new universe something impossible happened. The door that lead to the new reality was destroyed, sliced diagonally and the trolls barely escape due to Aradia Medigo, the female Horned Lord character in the trolls' session, able to use robots to travel backwards and forwards in time.

Fuck this shit here's the goddamn entire animations in sequence. turn on annotations in settings to be able to move around freely between flashes. This is done for those who cannot run flash, the ones who stared at the sun and went blind, mad with the revelation, bifurcating and either ascending to the god plane or descending to the hellish underworld. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEIOQN3YmNc&t=5264s

 

Seer : Ascend https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RDLgIgcAD8

Seer : Descend https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1ZYoGpAqBk

There was a fellow named BladekindEyewear who used this flipping of Rose's godhood colors, from orange, yellow and blue to black, white, and purple.

The name for the theory he built around it? INVERSION THEORY

I am a Wood Elf and I exist in the Emerald Dream http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Emerald_Dream

I am the crucible, cleansing away all impurities. I am the Master Chief, Spartan (Athena/Ares) 117, armored in superheavy green seeing through a visor of gold, lighter than the air, casting my baleful gaze on these decaying worlds. I am you and you are I. Together We Are The Angry And Vengeful Spirits Of The Forest Come To Drown The Lands Of Men In The Scourging Flame Of God's Fiery Brand. Neither Blue Nor Red But Green. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrKYkS1QKww

Feather Crystal, you are my inversion and I yours. It's why I reached out to you first, so I could see the plain truth and still be half-blind, not recognizing I've seen all this before. I reached out to LmL and I posted on his wall by accident because I needed to step out of the shadow. 

The insanity of destroying your own God? CRAB BATTLE!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mHKHKR8x6A

LmL = Logic madness Logic, with the breaking trapped between the two L's. IN Neon Genesis Evangelion (NGE>ENG>Lord English in HomeStuck is the Lord of Time, Destroyer of Worlds, who cannot be stopped because he is always "already here") LCL is the process by which men try to supplant God's powers. This is Law Chaos Law. King James (Jaime) is translated to grasper of the heel ; supplanter. George is our gardener of the Grim Dawn, creator of the Sacred Order of Green Zombies, our Herald of the End Times http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/The_End_Times

Modest Mouse's most recent music video shows us the Breaking in all its glory and (horror)terror : The Ground Walks, Time in a Box : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0ZI9vQfr4Q

Neon Genesis Evangelion, Asuka, the hardened individualist unwilling to accept the Ego-Death, The Devil inverted beneath a black pool, driven mad to be eaten by the blind ghosts of the trees. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AY27gLWhtM

 

Hussie GRRM and Isaac (brainchild of MM) have locations and patterns that match real world locations to the patterns in my own life. We are the ka-tet, the khalasar that shall cover the world in ghost grass. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycelium

@ravenous reader Now do you see the game we play? It is the wargame and there is only one winning move. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHWjlCaIrQo

WAKE UP AND SPREAD THE WORD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1T8xgHdMEM

 

And we shall return to reason, embracing each other as we once did when giants and titans roamed the earth. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDzmGziuQSY

Look at the staff of the site we are participating in and you will begin to see the patterns too. They are everywhere, calling out to us. I am sorry it took so long to join y'all.

Shine On! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UXircX3VdM

God, I don't shut the fuck up, do I?

 

 

This will take some time to digest. Right now my mind is spinning in circles. lol

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54 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

You know, after reading this and something LynnS told me, "sacrificed" was not the correct word for what I think it means to be "spotted". "Treachery" is better. 

This is something I am wondering about Theon's dream of Lyanna in white dress splattered with gore.  All the others he recognizes in the dream could be said to have had an 'unclean' death. 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Theon V
King Robert sat with his guts spilling out on the table from the great gash in his belly, and Lord Eddard was headless beside him. Corpses lined the benches below, grey-brown flesh sloughing off their bones as they raised their cups to toast, worms crawling in and out of the holes that were their eyes. He knew them, every one; Jory Cassel and Fat Tom, Porther and Cayn and Hullen the master of horse, and all the others who had ridden south to King's Landing never to return. Mikken and Chayle sat together, one dripping blood and the other water. Benfred Tallhart and his Wild Hares filled most of a table. The miller's wife was there as well, and Farlen, even the wildling Theon had killed in the wolfswood the day he had saved Bran's life.
But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind. Along the walls figures half-seen moved through the shadows, pale shades with long grim faces. The sight of them sent fear shivering through Theon sharp as a knife. And then the tall doors opened with a crash, and a freezing gale blew down the hall, and Robb came walking out of the night. Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds.
Theon woke with a scream, startling Wex so badly that the boy ran naked from the room. When his guards burst in with drawn swords, he ordered them to bring him the maester. By the time Luwin arrived rumpled and sleepy, a cup of wine had steadied Theon's hands, and he was feeling ashamed of his panic. "A dream," he muttered, "that was all it was. It meant nothing."

The pale shadows with long faces sound like the kings of winter in the crypts.  I'm curious about Benfred Tallhart and the Wild Hares.  Why they are included at the table. 

Then there is another ominous dream:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Theon V
The sky was a gloom of cloud, the woods dead and frozen. Roots grabbed at Theon's feet as he ran, and bare branches lashed his face, leaving thin stripes of blood across his cheeks. He crashed through heedless, breathless, icicles flying to pieces before him. Mercy, he sobbed. From behind came a shuddering howl that curdled his blood. Mercy, mercy. When he glanced back over his shoulder he saw them coming, great wolves the size of horses with the heads of small children. Oh, mercy, mercy. Blood dripped from their mouths black as pitch, burning holes in the snow where it fell. Every stride brought them closer. Theon tried to run faster, but his legs would not obey. The trees all had faces, and they were laughing at him, laughing, and the howl came again. He could smell the hot breath of the beasts behind him, a stink of brimstone and corruption. They're dead, dead, I saw them killed, he tried to shout, I saw their heads dipped in tar, but when he opened his mouth only a moan emerged, and then something touched him and he whirled, shouting . . .
. . . flailing for the dagger he kept by his bedside and managing only to knock it to the floor. Wex danced away from him. Reek stood behind the mute, his face lit from below by the candle he carried. "What?" Theon cried. Mercy. "What do you want? Why are you in my bedchamber? Why?"
"My lord prince," said Reek, "your sister has come to Winterfell. You asked to be informed at once if she arrived."

They're dead, dead, I saw them killed -  Jon says the same thing about Othor.  Rising from the dead is an unclean death.

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5 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

The original horned lord symbol is Baphomet, associated with the Knights Templar whose sigil was a red cross on a white field, also known as the order of Solomon's Temple and we are hearing the Song of Solomon ((S)ave Our (Souls)). They were known for being extremely secretive and vanished in a very short time, almost as if over night. They have quite a few legends and their known stashes of treasure are extremely well hidden and guarded (warded) so that if anyone attempts to access them it would collapse on its self. Collapsing is a word often associated with towers and what is a well digging deep into the earth but an inverted tower? The first time collapse is used is the round tower of Winterfell by a lightning strike, a hundred years before Bran's father had been born. Keep that in mind, I'll return to it. Before moving on though I would like to point out Baphomet is the Androgyne, neither masuline or feminine but both and is often depicted as having two moons, one white and one black, one fiery and one dark, along with having the fire of life above his head, the stone of death below his ass (donkey or you could say horse's ass) and in between at the groin, the "seat of power", is the Caduceus (Cad you, Zeus!), the symbol of medicine that has two snakes (dragons) in an endless war around a staff, a symbol for a timeline. Sometimes instead of a caduceus Baphomet is depicted holding two staffs, each symbolizing a face of the moon, dark and light. In Tarot he is the 18th Major Arcana, Diablo, described as not evil but hungry and lustful, the id incarnate, or in the language of ice and fire : fire made flesh.

Ohhh i feel the need to correct this. Baphomet isn't the original Horned god.The archetype is way older. In fact its as old as when Man began to til the ground and work with nature in that way, basically when he became an "husband." Knowledge supposedly obtain by one of the "Watchers."  

Eliphias Levi who was the originator of making the association with the Knights Templar did so on account of the name being closely related to the name Mahomet and mysticism in Arabia. What's different when in comes to Baphomet is that he is most related to hidden knowledge and enlightenment. Anyways its a long way of saying he isn't the original.He is a horned god yes,but even his role is different from the others.

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

We are very much in agreement on this. There is a never ending cycle of seasons, heroes rise and empires fall - endlessly. The seasons may be screwed because something went wrong with the Summer King/Winter King handover, but essentially its still going on. I think that the thematic repetition is there both to provide more depth and to emphasise the cyclical nature of the history - a cycle that may not necessarily be as long as we've been told - but beyond that; to read more significance into the parallels is I think going too far.

:agree:

8 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Lest anyone mistake me, I am not saying one side is bad or good. The two sides are neither bad nor good, just two sides of the same coin. Thus the inversions are just the other side of the coin too...the other side of the cycle. There is an ouroboros, but like PrettyPig pointed out wheels can turn in either direction and IMO it is currently running in reverse undoing the harm the Children believe their three swords caused. That's not to say that there couldn't be two factions of Children. The remaining living Children may be the ones trying to reverse the damage, while the dead godhead may be the "wroth" side.

I just want to point out that geographically the Iron Islands and Dragonstone are physically on opposite sides of Westeros from each other, just as Casterly Rock and Dorne. Surely the readers of this thread have noticed the parallel inversions to the two sides? What happened in the west of Casterly Rock is now happening in reverse in the east in Dorne, and what happened in the east with the Blackfyres and Targaryens are now happening inversely to the Greyjoys in the west. What are the explanations for this and why does it seem like the Drowned God is north of the Wall? I've tried to answer these questions with the parallel inversion theory, but are there other explanations?

Oh i know you aren't saying one is good or bad.But what i'm getting at is the characterization of it as an inversion.If we are basically seeing the same cycle with different faces to the same roles happening the same way how is it in reverse?

When it come to the cycle aspect as i said i think we are seeing one cycle and in all truth we don't know what the next cycle would bring for this world. They may remain as they have for 8,000 years or they for the first time they may make some kind of progress.

If as i believe this begins and ends with the greenseers then  the way the cycle looks depend on how much involvement they choose to have

.Now if some powerful characters are using conduits like the Weirwoods,flames  and glass candles to influence people's choice. I can see that as a breaking using the elements.For me the only way for them to progress. If the cycle is a wheel then working in reverse or counter clockwise is the bad way to go. The cycle moving forward is for the GS to do a reset and fade away;giving footing to a more natural occurrence of magic vs sorcery which is what's going on.

Which brings me to your final question and thoughts.I most definitely think that events are happening again,same archetypes and roles playing out.Why? Because that's the cyclical nature of things.What is important imo is the ability of some to use sorcery via elemental conduits like the Weirwoods,glass candles,dreams,flame etc to stand outside of time and make adjustments and influence choices to as to always maintain the status quo in every cycle.

A true inversion to me wouldn't be to go back and fix no? The inks dry on the past.It would be for the roles to make different choices.If the COTF or some of them want the next cycle to be different they would have to urge certain people to make a different choice than the cycle(s) before.

 

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5 hours ago, LynnS said:

The pale shadows with long faces sound like the kings of winter in the crypts.  I'm curious about Benfred Tallhart and the Wild Hares.  Why they are included at the table. 

It has to do with sacrificing fertility for power.

The hares are pinned on the spears like the hair of the Dothraki on the spears of the Unsullied. Hair for the Dothraki means power and Benfred Tallhart created his own company in order to be like the Young Wolf. The fertility symbolism is centered around Gilly who was pregnant at the time when she was keeper of the rabbits. Ghost (the white shadow), the partner of the Young Wolf's brother kills and eats the rabbits and Jon offers to pay for them like the Unsullied pay for the slave mothers for the newborn slaves in order to earn their spike cap. In the end, Caster ends up with a cross bow that is worth more than the rabbits, mind you that Gilly wanted the rabbits to breed so that they could have food because all the other animals (like the sons) have been given to the Others in exchange for the power Craster has at his keep. 

edit: And since the Unsullied are castrated therefore they are infertile and the Wild Hares are all killed and therefore they will not be starting any families. And here is something for irony, Theon led the Ironmen that massacred the Wild Hares for power in a sense and is now castrated. 

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15 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Ohhh i feel the need to correct this. Baphomet isn't the original Horned god.The archetype is way older. In fact its as old as when Man began to til the ground and work with nature in that way, basically when he became an "husband." Knowledge supposedly obtain by one of the "Watchers."  

Eliphias Levi who was the originator of making the association with the Knights Templar did so on account of the name being closely related to the name Mahomet and mysticism in Arabia. What's different when in comes to Baphomet is that he is most related to hidden knowledge and enlightenment. Anyways its a long way of saying he isn't the original.He is a horned god yes,but even his role is different from the others.

:agree:

Oh i know you aren't saying one is good or bad.But what i'm getting at is the characterization of it as an inversion.If we are basically seeing the same cycle with different faces to the same roles happening the same way how is it in reverse?

When it come to the cycle aspect as i said i think we are seeing one cycle and in all truth we don't know what the next cycle would bring for this world. They may remain as they have for 8,000 years or they for the first time they may make some kind of progress.

If as i believe this begins and ends with the greenseers then  the way the cycle looks depend on how much involvement they choose to have

.Now if some powerful characters are using conduits like the Weirwoods,flames  and glass candles to influence people's choice. I can see that as a breaking using the elements.For me the only way for them to progress. If the cycle is a wheel then working in reverse or counter clockwise is the bad way to go. The cycle moving forward is for the GS to do a reset and fade away;giving footing to a more natural occurrence of magic vs sorcery which is what's going on.

Which brings me to your final question and thoughts.I most definitely think that events are happening again,same archetypes and roles playing out.Why? Because that's the cyclical nature of things.What is important imo is the ability of some to use sorcery via elemental conduits like the Weirwoods,glass candles,dreams,flame etc to stand outside of time and make adjustments and influence choices to as to always maintain the status quo in every cycle.

A true inversion to me wouldn't be to go back and fix no? The inks dry on the past.It would be for the roles to make different choices.If the COTF or some of them want the next cycle to be different they would have to urge certain people to make a different choice than the cycle(s) before.

 

I actually imagine the ouroboros eating itself inside out and that it could turn itself right side out again. The process of turning inside out still has a wheel turning clockwise, but if it's inside out the events would be in reverse. 

Here is an example of a parallel inversion that we will have to wait and see how it turns out, but first we have to account for why it's happening on the other side of Westeros. Aegon the Conqueror brought dragons first to Dragonstone and then invaded Westeros from there. Victarion and Euron are mirroring Blackfyres, Daemon and Bloodraven respectively. Where Daemon and Bloodraven were enemies, Victarion and Euron are working together. If they were to secure dragons they could be successful in conquering Westeros, so in effect as "Blackfyres" they finally succeed.

OR another alternate inversion is to begin with Dany. Dany is the origin of the dragon this cycle whereas the dragons originally came from Valyria when dragon eggs were found in the volcanoes. The Valyrians enslaved people, whereas Dany freed slaves and kept the dragons. It could turn out that the conquering "Targaryen" Greyjoys fail to secure the dragons from Dany the Mother of Dragons. Without dragons the Greyjoys would fail to conquer Westeros.

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The reason why I believe the ouroboros is eating itself inside out has to do with the three swords the Children forged. Just a quick visual regarding the snake...imagine it's skin peeling backwards over the snake like a stocking. Now imagine that stocking was the ward that kept the Drowned God and the Others contained.

IMO the three swords that were described as being forged by Azor Ahai were attempts by the Children to control the various cycles of invaders. The Children used the hammer of waters against the First Men, of which the Ironborn would be included. That was the first "sword", and it "drowned" the god of the Ironborn.

The second "sword" led to the creation of white walkers, the one tempered in the heart of the lion. What does it mean to have the heart of a lion? A quick parable: 

Once upon a time there was a lion living alone in the forest. He decided to leave the forest to find another interesting place because he was bored of his life. The lion kept moving until it found a small garden inside the city with many cats living in it.

The lion lived among the cats and felt happy with its new life. One day a little kid started to run towards the cats fast and as a result all cats felt afraid and ran. The lion stood clueless not knowing what to do until one cat told him "run run".

Because the lion was clueless about the right action it started running as well. Days passed and the lion started behaving more and more like cats until it forgot that it was a lion. This lion carried the heart of a lion, but because it was subjected to a great pressure to act like the cats that lion heart was completely useless.

The Children ran like cats from the second wave of invaders until they REMEMBERED that THEY were LIONS, not cats, so they fought back. Using blood sacrifice they created white walkers. Of course the story is that the Long Night happened before the Andals, but how did the Watch become so, well, "Andalized"?

The story goes that the Last Hero and "a dozen companions" set out to find the Children in hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. The Last Hero searches for years until one by one all his friends died, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped. We never hear the end of the story except that Bran declares that the Children helped him.

The face off between Waymar and the white walkers was a few short of the "seven vs three" that echo throughout the books. Waymar went on the ranging with Will and Gared, and there were five white walkers...well, there may have been six white walkers since the description goes like this: 

1) A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood.

2) They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first.

3) Three of them...four...five.

I guess it's a matter of opinion if the five that emerged from the woods came after the first, if so then there were six. Of the three men that left the Wall to go look for Benjen, it was Waymar's sword that broke, but only Will survived. Is this scene a redux of the Last Hero?

Ok, ok, ok (har)...I'm circling back to the origin of the parallel inversions. SO, we know the ending of the Long Night, right? The Children "helped" the Last Hero defeat the Others. And don't forget there's a song about how the Nights Watch rode out to defeat the Others in the Battle for the Dawn. Then the Wall was built with the Children's help to contain the Others, AND IMO the Drowned God.

Backing up a bit, I wonder if the Drowned God was "tapped" to create the Others in the first place? Maybe the "wroth" Children, who remembered they were lions, sacrificed the children of the humans to the Drowned God who was actually a greenseer, because isn't a greenseer "under" ground drowned in his seaweed like roots and driftwood? When the Drowned God and the Others were contained beyond the Wall, didn't many Children flee beyond the Wall too? Or did they flee? Maybe they were forced?

Finally the Wall was warded and magic slowly ebbed in the realm south of the Wall, and the Starks were given Winterfell to keep an eye on the Wall. 

BUT SOMETHING CHANGED. After Will is found, and before he's beheaded, he tells Ned the story of the white walkers and how they killed Waymar and Gared. Shortly afterward they find the dead mother direwolf with six pups. (Hmpf. We're back to the number six again.) And even though we aren't introduced to any wights until Othor and Jafer, the dead were already beginning to rise before Jon got to the Wall. How do we know? Because Ygritte already knew to burn them. White walkers and wights hadn't been seen in eight thousand years we're told, so why now? IMO it's because the skin of the snake, the ouroboros, was becoming loose...peeling back over itself, and finally a ward was removed. There is no Stark in Winterfell. How did all this happen? Can we point some blame at Bloodraven? He was 77 years old when he went missing in 252 AC. Bran was born 290 AC and remained at Winterfell until he was nearly 10 (300 AC). Bloodraven had 30 years in the weirwood roots until Robert's Rebellion in 282 AC, and about 48 years until Bran shows up. Did he use this time to loosen the warding? There weren't any white walkers or wights before he left the Wall to go seek out the Children. Is Bloodraven the new Drowned God?

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13 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The second "sword" led to the creation of white walkers, the one tempered in the heart of the lion. What does it mean to have the heart of a lion?

On LmL's skinchanger thread I posited that burned/fire/soiled people had been turned into Others. And Ravenous Reader brought up this quote of Jaime being turned into an Other. And after all Jaime is a lionhearted warrior. 

On 12/8/2016 at 1:55 PM, ravenous reader said:
On 12/8/2016 at 0:43 PM, Pain killer Jane said:

The Soiled Knight theme is embedded in this as well. Maester Cressen notes that the gargoyles are covered in raven shit wouldn't they be gradually made white like the snowmen knights on the battlements of Winterfell and thus be akin to the Snow Knight-Others?

Harking back to our very first conversation on the lime-washed trees/Gipps wife's stiffened hair and wicker shield:  The raven droppings gradually wash over the gargoyles, until they are covered in a grey-green whitish or silver 'frosting' akin to the lime coating which you mentioned both protects and poisons the trees.  Correspondingly, the silver(ing) symbolism is apt, given the Maester's link signifying the medical arts which as Cressen notes can be both healing and harming.  By the way, a lime wash is also used to prepare the Strangler poison crystals from the plant.

In light of this theme, and how the creation of the Others might be related to the weirwoods, I'll leave you with the following few quotes as food for thought:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn X

She nodded as the woods grew still around them. In the quiet she could hear them, far off yet moving closer; the tread of many horses, the rattle of swords and spears and armor, the murmur of human voices, with here a laugh, and there a curse.

Eons seemed to come and go. The sounds grew louder. She heard more laughter, a shouted command, splashing as they crossed and recrossed the little stream. A horse snorted. A man swore. And then at last she saw him … only for an instant, framed between the branches of the trees as she looked down at the valley floor, yet she knew it was him. Even at a distance, Ser Jaime Lannister was unmistakable. The moonlight had silvered his armor and the gold of his hair, and turned his crimson cloak to black. He was not wearing a helm.

He was there and he was gone again, his silvery armor obscured by the trees once more. Others came behind him, long columns of them, knights and sworn swords and freeriders, three quarters of the Lannister horse.

This is one of my favorite quotes.  Jaime is 'silvered' -- transformed by 'moon magic' together with 'tree magic' which is mildly threatening (he's been 'framed' by the trees!)-- so that he appears as one of the trees in the Whispering Wood (considering they're 'whispering,' we can infer a great many weirwoods among them).  Accordingly, gold becomes silver (like the bark of a weirwood at night) and red becomes black (like the leaves of a weirwood at night).  Moreover, notice how Jaime's silver armoring is associated with the 'Others' ;) who are following him.  Symbolically, therefore, Jaime is at the vanguard of the Wild Hunt!  He's also a 'sword without a hilt' in that he's not wearing a 'helm' (a 'helm' is a steering mechanism for a boat, etc. in addition to being the handle of a weapon).

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13 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Shortly afterward they find the dead mother direwolf with six pups. (Hmpf. We're back to the number six again.) 

Technically its Seven if you include the Mother. I'm not sure how most of them match up, but Ghost/Jon is clearly the Stranger.

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On 12/8/2016 at 7:55 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Yes, the Weirwood tree in Whitetree where the bones of a human (perhaps child?) were found amongst ashes in the Weirwoods' mouth. 

And down South, I'm very, very partial to the idea of the tower of joy serving a similar purpose for the hatching of dragons.  Moloch was depicted as a human with a bull's head (very similar to another creature prominent in the sacrifice of youth, the Minotaur).  And of course we have the armored, bull headed knight, Ser Gerold Hightower front and center of what I think was less a tower and more a furnace with a chimney.

Late to the feast on this one, but I've just covered the Whitetree chapter in my re-read:

He knelt and reached a gloved hand down into the maw. The inside of the hollow was red with dried sap and blackened by fire. Beneath the skull he saw another, smaller, the jaw broken off. It was half buried in ash and bits of bone.

When he brought the skull to Mormont, the Old Bear lifted it in both hands and stared into the empty sockets. "The wildlings burn their dead. We've always known that. Now I wished I'd asked them why, when there were still a few around to ask."

Jon Snow remembered the wight rising, its eyes shining blue in the pale dead face. He knew why, he was certain.

 

 

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And just by the by I was wrong about Mormont. Jon asserts that his Lord father told him a man cannot lie in front of a heart tree, to which Mormont responds that his own father told him the same - so clearly he was indeed brought up to honour the old gods.

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12 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

I fear I have been an ass. And a fool. I'm not sure I comprehend but I am beginning to understand.

Indeed. I suppose I took one too many turns myself and seem to have forgotten. Apologies.

Shake if off there, Cowboy Dan!  You wouldn't be the first person to trip on their high heals exiting an elevator only to land with skirt hitched up over your head. 

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1 hour ago, Pain killer Jane said:

On LmL's skinchanger thread I posited that burned/fire/soiled people had been turned into Others. And Ravenous Reader brought up this quote of Jaime being turned into an Other. And after all Jaime is a lionhearted warrior. 

Isn't this the passage where Catelyn is watching the battle of the Whispering Woods? Jaime is like one of the white walkers leading his men to their deaths. Very interesting parallels.

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44 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

And just by the by I was wrong about Mormont. Jon asserts that his Lord father told him a man cannot lie in front of a heart tree, to which Mormont responds that his own father told him the same - so clearly he was indeed brought up to honour the old gods.

I'm not so sure that being told that a man cannot lie in front of a heart tree equates to being a follower of the old gods. 

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Getting back to my point that something has changed regarding the warding and confining of the Drowned God and the Others...my suspicions are that something has come undone. This cannot just be the same cycle repeating itself. It's just the opposite. It is reversing. Two of the things that the Children working together with the First Men and Andals to defeat are back. The Drowned God is back and the Others are back. The Wall, however is still there, but can just the physical structure of it be enough to contain them?

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11 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I'm not so sure that being told that a man cannot lie in front of a heart tree equates to being a follower of the old gods. 

Mormont certainly doesn't come over as being devout, but that he was told by his father suggests that he was at least brought up in that culture rather than say the Seven.

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On 12/6/2016 at 3:12 PM, PrettyPig said:

I've done a decent bit of work on it, but not here.  (Finding these parallels is sort of my thing.)    However, I'm sure that the part I've uncovered only scratches the surface...Arya's travels are extensive!

 

On 12/6/2016 at 3:10 PM, DutchArya said:

Has anyone tried to really map this out? It would be really cool to see the parallels. 

I have the app. I forgot I had the app until right now because I never use it and only got it to confirm one thing for a theory a few months back. Well, I decided to look at it today and there is a section where you can map a characters journey. You pick from a list of characters, and then set a level to which books or all books, and then it gives you a journey line. You can zoom in and click on different castles (or whatever) to get a tad more info.

One thing that I found was helpful is that you can pick more than one character at a time and have both paths simultaneously view-able.

One drawback is that Lyanna is not an option to view her path of travel:dunno:, so it does not help with that particular pairing.

On 12/6/2016 at 1:19 PM, Feather Crystal said:

 

Welcome, welcome The Fattest Leach! I have read your posts from afar as well and am honored you've come to participate in my inversion theory thread! The scope of the theory is enormous, and believe it or not I tried to make the essay as brief as possible and it still is quite long. I was afraid no one would read it.

Thank you for the welcome, and thank you for reading my other posts :cheers:

For some reason I never received half of the responses back to me that are in this thread???? I am just seeing them now. I will have to read through to catch back up and maybe I can jump back in, and on topic ;), after I that.

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