Heresy 192 The Wheel of Time

[Kingmonkey]

On 09/12/2016 at 10:23 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

Ohhh i feel the need to correct this. Baphomet isn't the original Horned god.The archetype is way older. In fact its as old as when Man began to til the ground and work with nature in that way, basically when he became an "husband." Knowledge supposedly obtain by one of the "Watchers."  

Eliphias Levi who was the originator of making the association with the Knights Templar did so on account of the name being closely related to the name Mahomet and mysticism in Arabia. What's different when in comes to Baphomet is that he is most related to hidden knowledge and enlightenment. Anyways its a long way of saying he isn't the original.He is a horned god yes,but even his role is different from the others.

A very small correction to your correction. The association of Baphomet with the Knights Templar dates from the accusations of heresy levelled against the Templars by Philip IV of France in 1307. As you say, it's widely thought that the name relates to Mahomet and represents a conversion to some form of Islam -- either purely invented by the prosecutors of the Templars, or perhaps deriving from rumours of a real conversion by some Templars in the Middle East.

Eliphas Levi originated the association of the Templar figure of Baphomet with a horned / goat deity, but not the association of something called Baphomet with the Templars. What little we know of the Templar accusations contains no suggestion that version of Baphomet was horned. Rather it was an idol of a severed head, possibly three faced, possibly made of wood and silver. Accounts varied wildly, presumably dependant on the biases of the torturers who forced those confessions. 

 

 

[Black Crow]

7 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

A very small correction to your correction. The association of Baphomet with the Knights Templar dates from the accusations of heresy levelled against the Templars by Philip IV of France in 1307. As you say, it's widely thought that the name relates to Mahomet and represents a conversion to some form of Islam -- either purely invented by the prosecutors of the Templars, or perhaps deriving from rumours of a real conversion by some Templars in the Middle East.

Eliphas Levi originated the association of the Templar figure of Baphomet with a horned / goat deity, but not the association of something called Baphomet with the Templars. What little we know of the Templar accusations contains no suggestion that version of Baphomet was horned. Rather it was an idol of a severed head, possibly three faced, possibly made of wood and silver. Accounts varied wildly, presumably dependant on the biases of the torturers who forced those confessions. 

That's a pretty fair summary and a good illustration of how facts and ultimately history and legends become distorted and by extension why we should be wary of the legendary history of Westeros.

[Kingmonkey]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

That's a pretty fair summary and a good illustration of how facts and ultimately history and legends become distorted and by extension why we should be wary of the legendary history of Westeros.

Well said, we certainly should.

History, historically, has tended to be subservient to preconception. Thus while the Egyptians and Babylonians had king-lists dating back tens of thousands of years, it's only in the last few hundred years that Europeans could seriously contemplate events taking place more than a couple of thousand years BC, to fit in with Biblical chronology. We really shouldn't expect the historical records of Westeros to have more in common with fact than with myth. 

[Black Crow]

22 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

Well said, we certainly should.

History, historically, has tended to be subservient to preconception. Thus while the Egyptians and Babylonians had king-lists dating back tens of thousands of years, it's only in the last few hundred years that Europeans could seriously contemplate events taking place more than a couple of thousand years BC, to fit in with Biblical chronology. We really shouldn't expect the historical records of Westeros to have more in common with fact than with myth. 

There of course is where we're straying into the timeline issue, which we'll be covering in a later Heresy. Trying to reconcile the Egyptian and Babylonian king-lists with Biblical ones and historical events has thrown up serious anomalies, and I'm confident that the Westerosi ones including that infamous list of Lord Commanders are going to be revealed as equally dodgy.

[Black Crow]

Going on from there, and without pre-empting discussion of the timelines, I'm prompted to ask whether a dramatic foreshortening of the timelines would count against or in favour of the Wheel theory. In very broad terms the Westeros we know is not un-akin to 15th Century Europe and its history is clearly modelled on the history of the Islands of Britain, beginning with the Celtic invasions [First Men] and proceeding through the Anglo-Saxons [Andals] to Bill the Conqueror [Aegon the Conqueror] and 1066 and all that.

This model, however, which is internally consistent with the development of society and technology in Westeros, accounts for just 2,000 years, not something over 10,000 years. 

The obvious response is that its GRRM's book and he can do what he likes with it, although in due course we'll see possible clues that all is not as it seems. All that I'm concerned with here is that if Westerosi history doesn't go back as far as its advertised, does the Wheel fall off the wagon or does it attach it more securely?

[Melifeather]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The obvious response is that its GRRM's book and he can do what he likes with it, although in due course we'll see possible clues that all is not as it seems. All that I'm concerned with here is that if Westerosi history doesn't go back as far as its advertised, does the Wheel fall off the wagon or does it attach it more securely?

I would say that the wheel does not begin with humans. It should have had it's own repeating cycle before any invaders arrived, and before the Children forged their swords. The forgings though may have been timed to coincide with the comet since the comet is the herald of a new cycle.

I feel I must insert that I do not think there were actually two moons in the sky over Westeros, but that the Children thought of Planetos as the sister moon to the moon, if that makes sense. @WeaselPie had written an interesting theory about this. I'm still trying to find a link to it. Maybe he can help us out?

The breaking of Nissa Nissa then was the breaking of Planetos. The Children believe they broke the natural order of things by forging the swords, and now they hope to reverse the damage and return the moon/planetos/Nissa to a time more like when the First Men first arrived.

Edited to add: the third sword that was tempered in Nissa Nissa...the cracking of the moon...was a super-volcanic eruption..."a thousand thousand dragons" was burning rock and lava erupting from Planetos itself.

[Black Crow]

34 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I would say that the wheel does not begin with humans. It should have had it's own repeating cycle before any invaders arrived, and before the Children forged their swords. The forgings though may have been timed to co-incide with the comet since that is their herald of a new cycle.

I feel I must insert that I do not think there were actually two moons in the sky over Westeros, but that the Children thought of Planetos as the sister moon to the moon, if that makes sense. @WeaselPie had written an interesting theory about this. I'm still trying to find a link to it. Maybe he can help us out?

The breaking of Nissa Nissa then was the breaking of Planetos. The Children believe they broke the natural order of things by forging the swords, and now they hope to reverse the damage and return the moon/planetos/Nissa to a time more like when the First Men first arrived.

Nah, I'm not inclined to go with that at all. The story is about the people of Westeros. If there is a Wheel involved, and I still remain to be convinced it has an overarching influence, then its revolutions are marked by extinction level events that for example wiped out earlier civilisations such as whoever built stuff in black basalt.

[Melifeather]

Just now, Black Crow said:

Nah, I'm not inclined to go with that at all. The story is about the people of Westeros. If there is a Wheel involved, and I still remain to be convinced it has an overarching influence, then its revolutions are marked by extinction level events that for example wiped out earlier civilisations such as whoever built stuff in black basalt.

I was editing while you were posting, so you may have missed my comments regarding the third sword...the one tempered in Nissa Nissa. The third sword was the eruption of a super volcano, and he basalt may be attributed to this.

Each sword DID cause extinction levels of each major invader, obviously leaving a small handful of survivors, but enough people were killed as to have lost huge chunks of history and record keeping. 

 

[Black Crow]

37 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I was editing while you were posting, so you may have missed my comments regarding the third sword...the one tempered in Nissa Nissa. The third sword was the eruption of a super volcano, and he basalt may be attributed to this.

Each sword DID cause extinction levels of each major invader, obviously leaving a small handful of survivors, but enough people were killed as to have lost huge chunks of history and record keeping. 

 

Still not buying it. 

As I said, this story is about the good [and bad] people of Westeros. The inhuman others are certainly exerting an influence on the story and the story ultimately will be about how the human characters deal with the others for good or ill, but the story doesn't centre on them to the extent which you're theory would require.

Its about the children of Winterfell not the children of the forest.

[Melifeather]

57 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Still not buying it. 

As I said, this story is about the good [and bad] people of Westeros. The inhuman others are certainly exerting an influence on the story and the story ultimately will be about how the human characters deal with the others for good or ill, but the story doesn't centre on them to the extent which you're theory would require.

Its about the children of Winterfell not the children of the forest.

 

That's fine, you don't have to buy it. I don't mind.

I'm seeing an over all theme that includes not just the current story of the children of Winterfell, but encompasses all of planetos/moon. And like I've said before it may just be the way GRRM has constructed the story. He may never mention the wheel of time reversing or of why it's happening in story. It's the big picture I'm trying to outline with major headings and subheadings. The very title of the series is of inversions: Ice and Fire. Within the books we have black and white, towers and inverted towers (wells, stairwells), sun and moon, east and west, north and south, past and present. I'm trying to demonstrate that the current story is a parallel inversion to the generation before it. Everything after Dany broke the wheel is the reverse of what happened to the generation of Robert's Rebellion, and it will continue to reverse even after that. It's reversing the sequence of the invasions. The end of the story will arrive at a time that will be similar to when humans first came to Westeros. It's happening because the Children think they broke the moon, and the only way to fix it is to reverse what they have done.

[Melifeather]

I think I can draw an analogy between A Song of Ice and Fire to the Bible. The Bible isn't just about Adam and Eve, nor about Abraham, nor about Isaac, Jacob, or Jesus. It's a compilation of stories of God's chosen people: the Jews with the New Testament being a new covenant to save Christians from everlasting death and destruction from Armageddon. Likewise ASOIAF isn't just about the Starks kids, the Lannister's, or the Targaryens, it's a story about how Westeros will be saved from an extinction cycle.

The chosen people of ASOIAF could be the Starks or it could be the First Men in general. Dany is our Jesus figure, the savior coming from the east. Jon might be John the Baptist, paving the way for Dany/Jesus, only we're not going to get Jesus...we're going to get Euron. The true savior of this story if there is one, will be Bran using the power of the old gods to intervene. The ward has already been removed that up until the current story was holding back the things that the Children's greenseers had done to interfere with the natural order of things. The only way to save Nissa Nissa is to turn back time. A reset.

[LynnS]

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

That's a pretty fair summary and a good illustration of how facts and ultimately history and legends become distorted and by extension why we should be wary of the legendary history of Westeros.

I agree.  There are plenty of warnings about it:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Sansa VI

"Gentle, pious, good-hearted Willas Tyrell. Be grateful you were spared, he would have bored you spitless. The old woman is not boring, though, I'll grant her that. A fearsome old harridan, and not near as frail as she pretends. When I came to Highgarden to dicker for Margaery's hand, she let her lord son bluster while she asked pointed questions about Joffrey's nature. I praised him to the skies, to be sure . . . whilst my men spread disturbing tales amongst Lord Tyrell's servants. That is how the game is played.

"I also planted the notion of Ser Loras taking the white. Not that I suggested it, that would have been too crude. But men in my party supplied grisly tales about how the mob had killed Ser Preston Greenfield and raped the Lady Lollys, and slipped a few silvers to Lord Tyrell's army of singers to sing of Ryam Redwyne, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. A harp can be as dangerous as a sword, in the right hands.

There seems to be two versions of Lyanna's Song circulating in Westeros.  One where she is kidnapped and raped; the other where she falls in love with a prince and runs off with him.  It depends on the audience the singer entertains and their political alliance.  Neither song is likely to be true.   

[Black Crow]

24 minutes ago, LynnS said:

There seems to be two versions of Lyanna's Song circulating in Westeros.  One where she is kidnapped and raped; the other where she falls in love with a prince and runs off with him.  It depends on the audience the singer entertains and their political alliance.  Neither song is likely to be true.   

And by the same token the fact that there are two different versions suggests that nobody knows anything with any certainty and if people are relying on romantick ballads how far are those ballads subconsciously influencing visions and the like.

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Likewise ASOIAF isn't just about the Starks kids, the Lannister's, or the Targaryens, it's a story about how Westeros will be saved from an extinction cycle.

Au contraire, the story is indeed about the Starks and the Lannisters et al. There may be a looming threat of extinction but its about them and how they deal with it and survive.

[wolfmaid7]

On 12/10/2016 at 5:49 PM, Kingmonkey said:

A very small correction to your correction. The association of Baphomet with the Knights Templar dates from the accusations of heresy levelled against the Templars by Philip IV of France in 1307. As you say, it's widely thought that the name relates to Mahomet and represents a conversion to some form of Islam -- either purely invented by the prosecutors of the Templars, or perhaps deriving from rumours of a real conversion by some Templars in the Middle East.

Eliphas Levi originated the association of the Templar figure of Baphomet with a horned / goat deity, but not the association of something called Baphomet with the Templars. What little we know of the Templar accusations contains no suggestion that version of Baphomet was horned. Rather it was an idol of a severed head, possibly three faced, possibly made of wood and silver. Accounts varied wildly, presumably dependant on the biases of the torturers who forced those confessions. 

 

 

Going from memory,somethings may have gotten cross,but i think you got the gist of it which was old Baphy wasn't the original.

[wolfmaid7]

10 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Still not buying it. 

As I said, this story is about the good [and bad] people of Westeros. The inhuman others are certainly exerting an influence on the story and the story ultimately will be about how the human characters deal with the others for good or ill, but the story doesn't centre on them to the extent which you're theory would require.

Its about the children of Winterfell not the children of the forest.

 

8 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think I can draw an analogy between A Song of Ice and Fire to the Bible. The Bible isn't just about Adam and Eve, nor about Abraham, nor about Isaac, Jacob, or Jesus. It's a compilation of stories of God's chosen people: the Jews with the New Testament being a new covenant to save Christians from everlasting death and destruction from Armageddon. Likewise ASOIAF isn't just about the Starks kids, the Lannister's, or the Targaryens, it's a story about how Westeros will be saved from an extinction cycle.

The chosen people of ASOIAF could be the Starks or it could be the First Men in general. Dany is our Jesus figure, the savior coming from the east. Jon might be John the Baptist, paving the way for Dany/Jesus, only we're not going to get Jesus...we're going to get Euron. The true savior of this story if there is one, will be Bran using the power of the old gods to intervene. The ward has already been removed that up until the current story was holding back the things that the Children's greenseers had done to interfere with the natural order of things. The only way to save Nissa Nissa is to turn back time. A reset.

I have to agree with BC somewhat on this.I think its about the characters and how they deal with the environment and the others around them that share it.What decisions they will make,how they will grow,change etc.But i also agree with Feather in that its also a tale of the larger aspect that involves a extinction event and (i will change this part) how Westeros will look after it has happened.What the knew age will be.

This is where i disagree with Feather.The event is going to happen in fire and ice and after the world be a different place for good or ill.Alot of people are going to die.The landscape might change a bit but its coming.

[Melifeather]

8 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

This is where i disagree with Feather.The event is going to happen in fire and ice and after the world be a different place for good or ill.Alot of people are going to die.The landscape might change a bit but its coming.

I am not in disagreement with this. I agree there's going to be a lot of destruction yet to come before it gets better...the title of the next book hints to a very dark time before we get to a Dream of Spring. Which is why I suspect that Euron will be the one to bring dragons and destruction as well as the white walkers and wights: a destruction by fire and ice.

[Kingmonkey]

13 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Going from memory,somethings may have gotten cross,but i think you got the gist of it which was old Baphy wasn't the original.

Absolutely. As I said, just a tiny correction on a matter of detail for the sake of historical precision. I completely agree with your assessment. 

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I am not in disagreement with this. I agree there's going to be a lot of destruction yet to come before it gets better...the title of the next book hints to a very dark time before we get to a Dream of Spring. Which is why I suspect that Euron will be the one to bring dragons and destruction as well as the white walkers and wights: a destruction by fire and ice.

We may be talking a little at cross-purposes here. GRRM has made it very clear of course that dark times [in every sense] lie ahead and I've no doubt that Euron will be playing his part along with all the other meddlers from Marwyn to Mance, but none of them are so central to the story as the core characters; Starks, Lannisters and at least one Targaryen.

We still don't know the true nature of the Starks once and future relationship to Winter and its that rather than anything else whichwill be at the heart of this in the end rather than any supposed inversions.

[Black Crow]

As I've mentioned I'm currently working my way through the story in its entirety with a view to finishing in time for a possible Winds of Winter publication date in March [Google is your friend] and now a little over halfway through Clash of Kings. There is an understandable tendency in our little games to pick up and concentrate on particular passages and even lines. There is some interesting stuff I'm being reminded of which I'll bring up in future discussion on Winterfell but what I'm most struck by is the broader picture.

The Jon chapter on his first visit to Craster's Keep is a gothick horror story. We discuss endlessly that conversation between Jon and Gilly in which they discuss the cold gods in the night, but the whole chapter is actually about how much the rangers really know about what's in the forest and what Craster is doing - and how bound up he is with the other Wildlings [remember my Sin-Eater descrption]; likewise moving on to Bran and the Reeds its all about the connection to North of the Wall and a suggestion which I'll develop in the next heresy that Winterfell may be a prison.

Conversely, although the undying are yet to come there is some interesting emphasis on Danaerys and Fire.

All the other characters from Euron on downwards are going to be playing their part in what's to come, but the real players are the children of Winterfell and Danaerys the Dragonlord for Ice and Fire respectively. Both are being offered old powers and its going to be about what they do with it, not Euron or anyone else.