Two kings to wake the dragon: Stannis and Shireen's ultimate purpose

[DarkSister]

Ok, so I know there are a lot of Jon Snow resurrection theories out there but bear with me. 

Before anything else, I want to make it clear that I'm not trying to argue whether Jon is dead or just in some sort of comatose state. So, for convenience sake, instead of "resurrection" I'll call it "rebirth" or "awakening". The purpose of my post is to discuss how will Jon's awakening come about, particularly who will the sacrifice(s) be. I've read some pretty cool theories out there - Blood Raven & Bran, Mel, warging, wights or any combination of them, etc. - but here's a twist I'd like to add. 

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His is the Song of Ice and Fire.

Only death can pay for life.

Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings. The words had been murmured by one of the queen’s men as Maester Aemon had cleaned his wounds. Jon had tried to dismiss them as his fever talking. Aemon had demurred. “There is power in a king’s blood,” the old maester had warned, “and better men than Stannis have done worse things than this.”

Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand. “No,” said Bran, “no, don’t,” but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man’s feet drummed against the earth … but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.

So, here's my theory:

Someone will be sacrificed for Jon to live, because well, "only death can pay for a life" seems to be a recurring theme. I believe there is some merit to the idea that two different sacrifices might be required to awaken Jon: A sacrifice by ice and a sacrifice by fire. So, who will be sacrificed and how? Shireen, Theon and Asha all seem to be pretty popular candidates and I've read of others but, (correct me if I'm wrong) I've never yet heard of Stannis considered a possible sacrifice.

Two kings to wake the dragon 

Much is said about waking dragons in the books, Stannis and Mel were quite obsessed with the idea. I find it ironic that Stannis might just be one of the kings sacrificed to wake the dragon (Jon) Mel keeps speaking of.

Sacrifice to the Old Gods: At the moment, Stannis is getting ready to fight the host sent by Roose in the village between the two lakes (three days ride from Winterfell). He is interestingly close to two known heart trees, the one over the frozen lake and the one in Winterfell. I've reason to believe Stannis will come out victorious and move forward to siege Winterfell so the tree in WF is more likely to become the place of sacrifice. His siege ends in victory but he won’t live to taste it. After all his failures in the south, his epiphany and voyage north, after marching through the blizzard, securing allies, and nearly starving to death... finally when the Boltons are on the brink of falling, when victory and Winterfell (which represents the consolidation of his power in the North) are within his grasp, Stannis is mortally wounded in battle. He'll be wounded either right before the heart tree or perhaps drags himself over to the heart tree after being wounded and dies. Since Theon seems to see/hear Bran and feel a presence in the godswoods perhaps he will act on their behalf so I like to think Theon will be present and possibly even deliver the finishing blow to an already wounded Stannis. 

Sacrifice to R’hllor: Meanwhile, the Wall is in chaos. Either Selyse or Mel (or both) become crazy enough to burn the last person with king's blood around: Shireen. I don't think they'll do so on Jon's behalf, Shireen is sacrificed in a desperate attempt to save AA who they believe is Stannis. Or perhaps Mel finally does realize Jon is AA, who knows? Now, I believe the Pink Letter wasn't entirely truthful and sent before the Siege of Winterfell, but regardless of whether Stannis was dead or not when Jon received the letter, he is dead now. Even if he dies a minute before Shireen that is enough because the moment Stannis dies, Shireen becomes queen ("so both die kings"). Whether male or female is irrelevant, just swap 'son' for 'daughter' and 'king' for 'queen', the words may be different but the idea behind them is what's important. There is so much foreshadowing for Shireen, plus Jon's attempts to get everyone with king's blood away from Mel unwittingly makes Shireen (the only one Jon didn’t have the power to send away, or never thought would be in danger) the last person with king's blood left in Castle Black. This scenario, however sickening, also provides an explanation for Selyse and Shireen's presence at the Wall. 

 Why are two sacrifices necessary?

After all, Beric and LS didn’t require that much and if Jon’s not even dead to begin with then why is more needed in his case? Given his unique heritage, the warging and the possibility that this moment (his stabbing and subsequent awakening) is his birth as AA, it might take more than the "kiss of life" because Jon's awakening will be different to what happened to Beric and LS. Perhaps the fire sacrifice serves to save his body and the sacrifice to the heart tree will fuel a connection of sorts between the weirwood, Three-Eyed Crow, Bran and Jon’s soul, even if it’s very brief. So, when Jon wargs back into his own body he will have some sort of dream or vision and awaken with new knowledge… which I suspect might be related to the secrets of his birth. One king to pay for his life but two kings to wake the dragon.

Why do Stannis and Shireen make more sense as sacrifices? 

Asha was a king's daughter so she technically does have king's blood but it all seems rather weak to me, especially after the kingsmoot where she was outright rejected as queen losing all claim to the Iron Islands. In addition, the Seastone Chair is not necessarily hereditary making king's blood somewhat irrelevant in their case. Theon does make for a better case since he was not present to be rejected at the kingsmoot and could therefore still be considered the rightful king. However, I think his story is not quite finished so he will probably be alive for quite some time still.

Also, it's interesting how Maester Aemon says "there is power in a king's blood." Grammatically speaking, "a" is a determiner. He is referring to the blood of an actual king, someone who is king/queen him/herself, not those who happen to be related to him/her. Which disqualifies quite a lot of people. 

We all know Stannis is not AA. We assume Melisandre was led to Stannis so he could, in turn, lead her to the true Azor Ahai and the true fight over at the Wall. Yet one thing I never understood is why she ever needed Stannis to take her to the Wall and Jon Snow in the first place. Couldn't her fires just directly show her Jon from the very beginning? Couldn't she have just gone up there herself? Why did Stannis specifically have to be there too? Taking his own daughter with him.

To me, Stannis becoming the sacrifice just brings it all in full circle. There is a deeper purpose to Stannis and Mel coming together. Melisandre saw Stannis in her fires because he was more than just the means to get to Jon. Anyone could have served that purpose. Stannis may not be AA but his fate is indeed tied to the prophesied hero. His blood and his daughter's blood will become necessary to awaken the dragon, they are necessary so that Azor Ahai can be born.

 

Thoughts? I'm really curious about what other people make of this.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, DarkSister said:

Sacrifice to R’hllor: Meanwhile, Castle Black is in chaos after Jon is attacked. Either Selyse or Mel (or both) become desperate and crazy enough to burn the last person with king's blood around: Shireen. I don't think they'll do so on Jon's behalf, they sacrifice Shireen in a desperate attempt to save AA, who they believe is Stannis. Or perhaps Mel finally does realize Jon is AA, who knows? Now, I believe the Pink Letter wasn't entirely truthful and was sent before the Siege of Winterfell, but regardless of whether Stannis was dead or not when Jon received the letter, he is dead now. Even if he dies a minute before Shireen that is enough because the moment Stannis dies, Shireen becomes queen ("...so both die kings"). Whether male or female is irrelevant, just swap 'son' for 'daughter' and 'king' for 'queen', the words may be different but the idea behind them is what's important. There is so much foreshadowing for Shireen, plus Jon's attempts to get everyone with king's blood away from Mel's grasp unwittingly makes Shireen (the only one Jon didn’t have the power to send away, or never thought would be in danger of becoming a sacrifice) the last person with king's blood left in Castle Black. This scenario, however sickening, also provides an explanation for Selyse and Shireen's presence at the Wall. 

I hate to think on Shireen being sacrificed in such a ghastly way but it makes a lot of sense.  The unintended consequence of Jon's actions in swapping babies is that Mel will sacrifice the wrong baby.  Would Martin do that? God I hope not.  Who's going to tell Melisandre the truth if Jon is out of commission and the only other people who knows about the swap are gone (Sam and Gilly).

If you go with Mirri Maaz Duur's formula both Drogo and Rheago perished. So Stannis and Monster?  Egad that makes me cringe.  Jon may be resurrected with temporary immunity to fire as Dany was.  Although I suspect that Jon will end up a green man and Winter King before he is transformed into the man limned in flame for the endgame..    

[Lost Melnibonean]

I agree that Shireen's goose is cooked...

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At the top of the steps Davos heard a soft jingle of bells that could only herald Patchface. The princess's fool was waiting outside the maester's door for her like a faithful hound. Dough-soft and slump-shouldered, his broad face tattooed in a motley pattern of red and green squares, Patchface wore a helm made of a rack of deer antlers strapped to a tin bucket. A dozen bells hung from the tines and rang when he moved . . . which meant constantly, since the fool seldom stood still. He jingled and jangled his way everywhere he went; small wonder that Pylos had exiled him from Shireen's lessons. "Under the sea the old fish eat the young fish," the fool muttered at Davos. He bobbed his head, and his bells clanged and chimed and sang. "I know, I know, oh oh oh."

Davos V, Storm 54

Melisandre is old...

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... Strange voices called to her from days long past.

...

... Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count, and she had paid the price.

Melisandre, Dance 31

Shireen is young...

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Her name was Shireen. She would be ten on her next name day, and she was the saddest child that Maester Cressen had ever known.

Prologue, Clash

Shireen wants king’s blood...

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Melisandre moved closer. "Save them, sire. Let me wake the stone dragons. Three is three. Give me the boy."

...

... He turned back to Melisandre. "You swear there is no other way? Swear it on your life, for I promise, you shall die by inches if you lie."

... Melisandre went to him, her red lips parted, her ruby throbbing. "Give me this boy," she whispered, "and I will give you your kingdom."

"He can't," said Davos. "Edric Storm is gone."

Davos VI, Storm 63

Shireen has king’s blood, and she is a dead girl...

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"If Stannis wins his war, Shireen will stand as heir to the Iron Throne."

"Then I pity your Seven Kingdoms."

"The maesters say greyscale is not—"

"The maesters may believe what they wish. Ask a woods witch if you would know the truth. The grey death sleeps, only to wake again. The child is not clean! "

"She seems a sweet girl. You cannot know—"

"I can. You know nothing, Jon Snow." Val seized his arm. "I want the monster out of there. Him and his wet nurses. You cannot leave them in that same tower as the dead girl."

Melisandre cannot burn Edric Storm, but she is going to burn Shireen with Selyse’s blessing, since they will both be desperate having seen Jon Snow betrayed and wounded or dead, and having come to believe that Ramsay has defeated and killed Stannis.

And the old fish will eat the young fish. Poor Shireen.

Stannis is gonna be pissed, and Melisandre is gonna end up like Serala, the Lace Serpent of Duskendale...

 

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The queen's men might remain fervent followers of the Lord of Light, but the lesser folk of Dragonstone were drifting back to the gods they'd known all their lives. They said Stannis was ensorceled, that Melisandre had turned him away from the Seven to bow before some demon out of shadow, and . . . worst sin of all . . . that she and her god had failed him. And there were knights and lordlings who felt the same.

Davos V, Storm 54

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"In Duskendale they love Lord Denys still, despite the woe he brought them. 'Tis Lady Serala that they blame, his Myrish wife. The Lace Serpent, she is called. ... The Lace Serpent filled her husband's ear with Myrish poison, they say, until Lord Denys rose against his king and took him captive. ...

... "Once Lord Denys lost his hostage, he opened his gates and ended his defiance rather than let Lord Tywin take the town. He bent the knee and begged for mercy, but the king was not of a forgiving mind. Lord Denys lost his head, as did his brothers and his sister, uncles, cousins, all the lordly Darklyns. The Lace Serpent was burned alive, poor woman, though her tongue was torn out first, and her female parts, with which it was said that she had enslaved her lord. Half of Duskendale will still tell you that Aerys was too kind to her."

Brienne II, Feast 9

I suppose being burned alive would be a fitting end for Melisandre. 

Stannis, of course, will burn, but not at a stake...

This is from Sansa's escape from Kings Landing...

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The eastern sky was vague with the first hint of dawn when Sansa finally saw a ghostly shape in the darkness ahead; a trading galley, her sails furled, moving slowly on a single bank of oars. As they drew closer, she saw the ships figurehead, a merman with a golden crown blowing on a great seashell horn. She heard a voice cry out, and the galley swung slowly about.

Sansa V, Storm

I believe there is a reason the George described the ship's figurehead so clearly, a merman with a golden crown blowing on a great seashell horn. Seashells are very closely associated with House Westerling. But I don't see any connection there. Davos at one points describes a sound like the faint whisper of the sea in seashell. Now, I tend to think that the George at least tries to write very carefully, with many phrases and passages relating to others. But in this instance, I think the George merely chose a poetic phrase to describe what Davos was hearing. But seashells were used back in Game to describe Stannis's activity on Draganstone...

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A boy with an army, Varys said. Yet only a boy, as you say. The kings brothers are the ones giving Cersei sleepless nights . . . Lord Stannis in particular. His claim is the true one, he is known for his prowess as a battle commander, and he is utterly without mercy. There is no creature on earth half so terrifying as a truly just man. No one knows what Stannis has been doing on Dragonstone, but I will wager you that hes gathered more swords than seashells. So here is Cerseis nightmare: while her father and brother spend their power battling Starks and Tullys, Lord Stannis will land, proclaim himself king, and lop off her sons curly blond head . . . and her own in the bargain, though I truly believe she cares more about the boy.

Eddard XV, Game

So outside of House Westerling we see seashells associated with Davos and Stannis, but really, what do we have? Not much if anything. But in Dance, we hit a lode, first when Asha is taken by Stannis outside Deepwood Motte...

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A trumpet blew.

 

That' s wrong, she thought. There are no trumpets in the Drowned God' s watery halls.Below the waves the merlings hail their lord by blowing into seashells.

 

She dreamt of red hearts burning, and a black stag in a golden wood with flame streaming from his antlers.

And then we hear from Patchface shortly before Jon is attacked by Bowen Marsh...

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Patchface jumped up. I will lead it! His bells rang merrily. We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh.

Jon XIII, Dance

These two uses paint pictures nearly identical to the figurehead observed by Sansa, merlings or mermaids blowing seashells. Sansa's merman was the figurehead of a ship, a sort of herald, and Asha's merlings and Patchface's mermaids were clearly heralds. If you think this is all coincidental, you can stop reading now.

The principal practice of the Drowned God religion referenced by Asha is to drown people in the sea and then resurrect them so they can rise harder and stronger. Patchface himself apparently drowned but washed ashore and was resurrected (albeit softer and dumber). But in both cases we have people drowning under the waves, in the Drowned God’s watery halls. And Sansa's ship, well that's a Braavosi trading galley. Petyr, whose family originally hailed from Braavos, hired it to go to Gulltown, when the Lord of Harrenhal was dispatched to woo Lady Lysa in the Vale. It's also the ship Petyr uses to smuggle Sansa out of King's Landing, and later, it returns to Gulltown from Braavos, and Petyr's man Oswell learns some interesting news.

Most crowns, like the one that adorns the Merling King's figurehead, are golden, including Stannis's. Stannis has just obtained the backing of the Iron Bank of Braavos, and we have reason to suspect he intends to effect a ruse in the battle against Houses Bolton and Frey. Moreover, we know that House Manderly, which has completed a small armada, has pledged to aid Stannis if Stannis's man Davos recovers Rickon, and we know that Manderly is associated with mermen. And finally, we know that Aurane Waters, the Bastard of Driftmark, who fought for Stannis and tricked Cersei into building ships he later appropriated to set himself up in the Stepstones as the Lord of the Waters, is associated with seahorses.

Now, here's what I suspect will happen. Word of Stannis's defeat and death will spread, thus marching into the sea, but Manderly will triumph over Bolton. Stannis will then join Aurane's power (riding seahorses) to Manderly's power (mermen blowing seashells) to threaten Aegon and/or Daenerys, or possibly Euron. 

And they'll be joined by the river lords still allied with North...

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"Under the sea, men marry fishes." Patchface did a little dance step, jingling his bells. "They do, they do, they do."

Jon XIII, Dance

But not the Brackens...

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Memories of ancient wrongs and bygone betrayals were not oft put aside by the lords of the Trident, whose enmities ran as deep as the rivers that watered their lands. Time and again, one or more of these riverlords would join with some invader against their own king; indeed, in some cases it was there very lords who brought the outsiders into the riverlands, offering them lands or gold or daughters for their help against familiar foes.

The Riverlands, TWOIAF

Stannis's host of Nothmen and Rivermen will array for battle at the Trident. Their numbers will be swollen by Northern childless and homeless men, unwed men, old men, and younger sons coming for war, for adventure and plunder, and for a glorious death to spare their kin beyond the Neck one more mouth to feed (just like Creegan Stark's host in the Dance of the Dragons). Daenerys will meet them...

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That night she dreamt she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurpers rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent.

However, I think rather than burn this host she will take it for her own to fight Aegon. Recall how Stannis took Renly's power for his own...

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"I beg you in the name of the Mother," Catelyn began when a sudden gust of wind flung open the door of the tent. She thought she glimpsed movement, but when she turned her head, it was only the king's shadow shifting against the silken walls. She heard Renly begin a jest, his shadow moving, lifting its sword, black on green, candles guttering, shivering, something was queer, wrong, and then she saw Renly's sword still in its scabbard, sheathed still, but the shadowsword . . .

 

"Cold," said Renly in a small puzzled voice, a heartbeat before the steel of his gorget parted like cheesecloth beneath the shadow of a blade that was not there. He had time to make a small thick gasp before the blood came gushing out of his throat.

Catelyn IV, Clash

We know that the North fought on the black side in the Dance of Dragons. And I seem to recall an SSM where the George said the North tended to be loyalist after Torrhen knelt (or perhaps it was a post by Ran). We know that Daenerys is going to slay the lie that is Stannis or his claim. Perhaps Drogon, the shadow, will remove Stannis and Daenerys will claim Stannis's forces the way Stannis claimed Renly's.

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It were the black one, the man said, in a Ghiscari growl, the winged shadow. He come down from the sky and and

Daenerys I, Dance 2

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"I know the cost! Last night, gazing into that hearth, I saw things in the flames as well. I saw a king, a crown of fire on his brows, burning . . . burning, Davos. His own crown consumed his flesh and turned him into ash. Do you think I need Melisandre to tell me what that means? Or you?"

Davos V, Storm 54

So, I don't think we will have two kings to wake a dragon. 

[JLE]

There is one major trouble with the above argument: Shireen, being female, will never be a *king*.

I do believe that Stannis will end up in the fire himself - as has been foreshadowed in ASOS, in a conversation with Davos, in which he saw one of the only visions in the flames ever granted to a non-believer (I believe it may even be the same conversation in which he admits he does not truly believe in R'hllor but in the fact that Melisandre has power?) - that vision was of a king whose crown burned him away to ashes.

However I believe the other king that will die is Theon Greyjoy. He has a claim to be king of the ironborn, as Balon's eldest (and only) son - exactly the same claim, in fact, as the last one to dispute a kingsmoot because he had not been present to stake a claim. Most importantly, having not been there to stake his claim, he was not *rejected* by them - although if he were to appear at another kingsmoot he would stand no chance, and he would be rejected, until the point of that rejection his claim is the only one still in abeyance and the only denial of Euron's claim. And thus he has a position very similar to Stannis: a king-in-exile, unable to claim the loyalty of the people who should be calling him king, or sit in the seat of his kingdom, but nevertheless one whose claim cannot yet be dismissed.

(This will be all the stronger a case, in fact, if Tommen and Myrcella should die in the south, and Stannis outlive both - there would be no further doubt about his right to call himself Robert's successor.)

Asha's request for Theon to die by the sword, rather than by being burned, adds an extra layer: not just two kings (Stannis and Theon) but fire and blood - Theon's death by beheading will, of necessity, be bloody, and if Stannis is the one to go into the fire, then we have two kings that have died, one in fire and one in blood...

Of course this all requires Stannis to survive the battle against the Boltons, and drive them from Winterfell (for he cannot make it back to the Wall now without having taken Winterfell, with the Boltons at his back). Ramsay or Roose - more likely the former (for I think Ramsay is going to murder Roose) - may survive Stannis taking Winterfell, and either Stannis will return to the Wall to face the Others, or the Wall will fall in his absence and refugees bringing Jon's body would make for Winterfell as their (and everyone's) last hope...

There would still be a place for a Battle of the Bastards, if Ramsay survives and returns to assault Winterfell (either with Jon in it, or to retake Winterfell after Stannis returns to the Wall to do whatever happens there, forcing Jon to return to Winterfell to battle Ramsay).

But there is a chance, then, that Shireen may even survive. I think she is Stannis's Nissa-Nissa - and I think he will make the *opposite* choice to the original Azor Ahai: instead of sacrificing the one he loves most, he may sacrifice himself and spare her. Not "Azor Ahai-Last Hero II" but "Azor Ahai Gets It Right This Time" (when the original made the wrong decision and sacrificed her instead of himself.)

 

[Lord Varys]

Since Jon is not likely going to *truly* die considering that his spirit most likely will live on in Ghost, there is no reason why there should be a sacrifice to revive his body if the magic kiss that brought back Beric and Catelyn could work, too. The difficult thing will be get his spirit back into his body thereafter.

The thing is, nobody should have any interest in bringing Jon Snow back. Nobody thinks he has some special destiny. His resurrection most likely is going to be an accident. Borroq will realize that his spirit is in Ghost and Mel might accidentally resurrect his body when she gives him the funeral rites, just as Thoros once did with Beric.

There has no weirdo super special magical ritual to bring him back.

However, that doesn't mean Shireen is not going to be sacrificed. It just will happen much later in the story, after Stannis and his daughter are reconciled (and things are much worse).

[DarkSister]

@LynnS

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 “Craster’s son?” Val shrugged. “He is no kin to me.”

  “I have heard you singing to him.”

  “I was singing to myself. Am I to blame if he listens?” A faint smile brushed her lips. “It makes him laugh. Oh, very well. He is a sweet little monster.”

  “Monster?”

  “His milk name. I had to call him something. See that he stays safe and warm. For his mother’s sake, and mine. And keep him away from the red woman. She knows who he is. She sees things in her fires.”

  Arya, he thought, hoping it was so. “Ashes and cinders.”

  “Kings and dragons.”

  Dragons again. For a moment Jon could almost see them too, coiling in the night, their dark wings outlined against a sea of flame. “If she knew, she would have taken the boy away from us. Dalla’s boy, not your monster. A word in the king’s ear would have been the end of it.” And of me. Stannis would have taken it for treason. “Why let it happen if she knew?”

  “Because it suited her. Fire is a fickle thing. No one knows which way a flame will go.” Val put a foot into a stirrup, swung her leg over her horse’s back, and looked down from the saddle.

Val believes Melisandre is aware of the swap. I’m inclined to agree with her but if she’s wrong and Melisandre doesn’t know then Val is still around to tell them the truth, that the baby isn’t Mance’s son. That’s why I don’t think Monster is in danger, only Shireen.

 

@Lost Melnibonean

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"Under the sea the old fish eat the young fish," the fool muttered at Davos. He bobbed his head, and his bells clanged and chimed and sang. "I know, I know, oh oh oh."

Wow, I never thought this could allude to Shireen and Melisandre (if not Melisandre then Selyse perhaps) but makes sense.

Now that I’m thinking it over, could also be applied more broadly… We’ve seen it countless of times in the series, children who’ve been or will be victims of adults and their machinations. The Stark children, Rhaegar’s children, King Robert’s bastards, Lommy Greenhands, Sweetrobin,Tommen, Myrcella, Shireen, the many child hostages in Westeros and even Dany’s cupbearers who the Shavepate is so keen to use against the Harpy… and all the thousands of other children we don’t know about. 

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Now, here's what I suspect will happen. Word of Stannis's defeat and death will spread, thus marching into the sea, but Manderly will triumph over Bolton. Stannis will then join Aurane's power (riding seahorses) to Manderly's power (mermen blowing seashells) to threaten Aegon and/or Daenerys, or possibly Euron. 

And they'll be joined by the river lords still allied with North...

The “marching into the sea” bit linked to Stannis supposed “death” is interesting... but I’m not convinced of the rest, or Sansa’s description of the galley being more than coincidence. I don’t see how Stannis will ever be able to reach out to Aurane Waters nor do I think the Riverlords (however much they might want to) will risk angering whoever is in King’s Landing now that they have their sons as hostages. We know the Lannisters-Tyrells took hostages, so unless they are returned, the Riverlords will be unable to openly aid the northerners or Stannis.

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That night she dreamt she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurpers rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent.

I always understood the above quote to mean Dany will eventually battle the Others. The dream is mirroring her own future fight against the Others to Rhaegar’s past fight against the rebel host. At least that’s my interpretation haha.

Finally, 

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Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne.” Stannis pointed north. “There is where I’ll find the foe that I was born to fight.”

The moment Stannis decided to go to the Wall was such a powerful turn for his character that I don’t believe he will ever be marching back south to King’s Landing before fulfilling what he sees as his duty to save the kingdom. He no longer troubles himself with what’s going on in KL, his more immediate concern is unifying the North and get more men to fight the Others.

If Stannis survives the siege of Winterfell he’s more likely to stay close to the Wall where he knows he is needed.

[DarkSister]

@JLE

True, Shireen will never be “king” but she can be queen, sort of a matter of semantics. I don’t think gender of the word is the important thing here. After all, isn’t queen simply the word for a female monarch as king is the word for a male monarch? If Shireen inherits the Iron Throne by right of birth she will be the queen regnant, unlike Cersei for example who is only queen consort since she herself has no king's blood and is only queen by marriage. On another note, Maester Aemon himself says they were wrong to believe TPTWP could only be male when a princess is just as valid. I know he chalks it up to the Valyrian gender-neutral word for dragons but perhaps the notion can still be applied to Shireen’s case.

To be honest, if the word "queen" was used instead of "king" then I'd never consider the phrase could be applied to anyone but  a female. However,  linguistic conventions generally lean towards male nouns as the go-to terms when gender is otherwise unspecified or to encompass more than one gender (Man, mankind, etc). It still happens in modern English and most certainly would happen more often in a patriarchal society such as Westeros. So, when they say "king" or "king's blood" I figure it could be applied more generally to refer to "monarch" or "monarch's blood" regardless of gender.

Quote

Asha's request for Theon to die by the sword, rather than by being burned, adds an extra layer: not just two kings (Stannis and Theon) but fire and blood - Theon's death by beheading will, of necessity, be bloody, and if Stannis is the one to go into the fire, then we have two kings that have died, one in fire and one in blood...

 

This ^ does sound very interesting and quite possible. 

I agree with you that Theon Greyjoy is another very likely candidate since he was not directly rejected in the kingsmoot and could still be considered the rightful king of the Iron Islands. My doubt in regards to Theon dying anytime soon stems from the fact that everybody seems to expect it, as we have so many times already, yet he is still alive. I remember at some point in ADWD someone asking Theon how is it possible he is still alive and Theon answered that the gods are not yet done with him. Then he senses a presence in the godswoods and seems to see Bran in the heart tree. Finally, the books made a big deal over Asha’s discovery of a precedence that may enable Theon to challenge the kingsmoot... These are all reasons I’m inclined to think Theon’s story is far from over. Could be wrong though, since you never know with GRRM haha.

And the bit about Stannis making a different choice and sacrificing himself instead of Shireen (his nissa nissa) is great. I would have never expected that! One possible problem with your scenario, however, is the timing and concerns over Jon’s body. Who knows how long it takes to travel from the Wall and WF especially in the snow, wouldn’t Jon’s body be in danger then? If Jon has died, the NW are burning their dead and if they don’t burn Jon then decomposition is likely, not to mention the risk of Jon’s spirit staying in Ghost for too long. If Jon’s body is merely comatose then perhaps there is a better case for him being out of commission too long, except for his spirit staying too long inside Ghost (if he has warged which I think he has).

 

@Lord Varys

Indeed, nobody will be interested in bringing Jon back except for perhaps Bran and the Three-Eyed Crow which is why they might take an interest in helping Jon’s spirit back into his body. If Mel performs the kiss or there is any sacrifice at all, Jon’s awakening will most likely be an unintentional consequence.

And yeah there is no reason the kiss shouldn’t work on Jon, perhaps if Mel performs the funeral rites she accidentally resurrects his body just as Thoros did before with Beric. But there is no reason it should work like it did for Thoros either. Perhaps Mel never even performs the funeral rites for Jon since he was not a follower of R’hllor. I have a feeling Thoros only did so for Beric because of the difficult situation they were in, Beric was a friend and he was the only priest of any religion around. With Jon, however, there is a septon in Castle Black and weirwoods in the forest beyond the Wall (though taking Jon’s body there for a funeral is highly unlikely).

The way I see it, could go either way… It’s not certain whether Melisandre will feel the need to give Jon the kiss any more than a scenario in which Selyse or Mel become desperate enough to make a sacrifice that accidentally helps awaken Jon’s body. So, the two sacrifices I mentioned are not necessarily the only way to save Jon but they are what might happen given the situation, fulfilling “two kings to wake the dragon” even if by accident. 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, DarkSister said:

 

Indeed, nobody will be interested in bringing Jon back except for perhaps Bran and the Three-Eyed Crow which is why they might take an interest in helping Jon’s spirit back into his body. If Mel performs the kiss or there is any sacrifice at all, Jon’s awakening will most likely be an unintentional consequence.

The problem with the sacrifice ideas is that there is no reason why Mel should sacrifice anybody at the Wall - and even if she would sacrifice somebody, it wouldn't be Shireen, it would be Gerrick Kingsblood and his daughters, Mance's alleged son, Val, or somebody else. Stannis' daughter would be the last person on her list. The very last.

Whatever is going to transpire on the island in the lake is unknown. What we know makes it unlikely that Theon is going to be sacrificed (because George has confirmed that there will be another Theon chapter after Theon 1 and one would assume that Asha 1 is going to cover the events on the island rather than Theon 2) but it is even more unlikely that Stannis is going to die there because this is going to place before the Battle of the Ice happens - and such a battle will happen. George has said that Theon 1 (and thus most likely also whatever transpires on the island) is going to take place before the Pink Letter and Jon's assassination.

Thus it is very unlikely that any sacrifice taking place on the island is going to be connected in any way to the Jon thing. In fact, my guess is that whatever transpires there will lead to Bran revealing himself (or rather 'the old gods') and that is then going to influence the outcome of the battle in Stannis' favor.

1 hour ago, DarkSister said:

And yeah there is no reason the kiss shouldn’t work on Jon, perhaps if Mel performs the funeral rites she accidentally resurrects his body just as Thoros did before with Beric. But there is no reason it should work like it did for Thoros either. Perhaps Mel never even performs the funeral rites for Jon since he was not a follower of R’hllor. I have a feeling Thoros only did so for Beric because of the difficult situation they were in, Beric was a friend and he was the only priest of any religion around. With Jon, however, there is a septon in Castle Black and weirwoods in the forest beyond the Wall (though taking Jon’s body there for a funeral is highly unlikely).

Mel performed R'hllorian marriage rites for Sigorn and Alys, too, despite the fact that neither of them was a fervent follower of R'hllor. Alys didn't convert and Sigorn would only have converted under duress. Thus it is very likely that Mel could end up taking care of Jon's body and sending him on his way if there is ever a proper funeral.

In fact, it is quite clear that Mel respected Jon and she would most likely want to show that respect by giving him a proper funeral. Thoros was Beric's friend and the only priest they had with them so he was responsible of taking care of their dead. The idea that Cellador (who might have been one of Marsh's men) would bury Jon is highly unlikely, though.

1 hour ago, DarkSister said:

The way I see it, could go either way… It’s not certain whether Melisandre will feel the need to give Jon the kiss any more than a scenario in which Selyse or Mel become desperate enough to make a sacrifice that accidentally helps awaken Jon’s body. So, the two sacrifices I mentioned are not necessarily the only way to save Jon but they are what might happen given the situation, fulfilling “two kings to wake the dragon” even if by accident. 

The idea that sacrifices awaken the wrong people 'accidentally' makes little sense to me. Magic doesn't work that way. Dany didn't accidentally wake the dragons, Mirri Maz Duur did not accidentally turn Drogo into a vegetable, etc. We have no reason to believe that long-distance accident resurrection spells work. The sacrifice, the sorcerer, and the subject of the spell were always in close proximity. And if Mel sacrificed somebody at the Wall it wouldn't be to resurrect somebody. She is not going to believe Stannis is dead because she knows he is the prophesied savior. And even if she believed that he was dead she would not try to bring him back while being at the Wall. She would first search for his corpse.

[JLE]

It's obvious that Jon is going to actually die - not be "Not Quite Dead" and make a conventional recovery - but it is possible that he could hang on the border between life and death for some time before losing the fight, and thus be only recently dead when Stannis returns to meet his daughter again.

And I do think Stannis *will* meet his daughter again. But in order to do that, he has to have at least some form of victory over the Boltons, not just over their Frey minions (the Manderly army I think will change sides) but over the actual Bolton forces themselves.

How it might be possible:

The first battle - against the Freys - is obviously some time before Jon's assassination. And will be a walkover for Stannis and company. And with them, food supplies (owned by the Freys) to stave off hunger for long enough to carry out the next stage of the plan.

Ramsay is up to something - he is the one that Theon warns Stannis to fear, more than Frey or Manderly: but he is no battle commander or swordsman, and has no army at his back while Roose is in charge. His strength is in subterfuge, disguise and treachery, the way he infiltrated Winterfell. He'll try to get *in* to Stannis's army and assassinate him - probably disguised as a defecting Manderly soldier, fully expecting the Manderlys to switch sides. (Quite apart from the dispute over House Frey, the murder of Wendel Manderly at the Red Wedding, the fact that Wyman Manderly's throat was nearly cut by a Frey, there's also the Manderly / Bolton ongoing dispute over the Hornwood lands and the death of Donnella Manderly-Hornwood. It would be astonishing if the Manderlys were NOT looking to desert to Stannis.)

Stannis has already hinted that "you may hear rumours of my death - they may even be true", with the unspoken "or not": but how could untrue rumours of Stannis's death spread while he lives, unless by Stannis's own intention? He is planning some way to fake his death, while accepting there is a chance of it going wrong. I believe he expects Ramsay to try some kind of treachery, and intends Ramsay to assassinate the wrong target and possibly steal his red sword in the process, and return back to Winterfell - believing that he has defeated Stannis (the danger being that Ramsay will not be fooled, and will go for the real target instead of the fake: Stannis does not know who Ramsay is, and must wait for him to act to reveal himself. But then, Ramsay does not know Stannis either, which gives him a chance of pulling off an imposture.) He and his men could even fake up a battle or a retreat: since Ramsay knows nothing of real battle, and might believe he had won a real one. Thus, Ramsay's writing of the Pink Letter is something he believes to be true. (And I think that "Ramsay murders Roose" is a thing that will definitely happen at sometime around then.

Only... Stannis isn't dead. He's contriving some way to get allies inside Winterfell who will open the gate to him and his army when he comes calling, because he needs to take Winterfell *intact*, so he needs friends on the inside. The colours of the Karstarks, whose treachery has been discovered, could prove useful in having his own men or his Northern allies "help Ramsay to escape back to Winterfell" in the process...

Which would lead to Stannis's *real* attack on Winterfell happening at about the same time that the Pink Letter, sent by Ramsay shortly earlier, reaches Jon by raven. Stannis drives Ramsay's forces from Winterfell (and recovers his red sword) at the same time that Jon is stabbed: and receives the news shortly afterwards, sent by Watchmen who want to prevent Ramsay attacking them. He dashes north with all his army to restore order at the Wall, but can only leave a skeleton defence behind. Ramsay, who survived Stannis's attack, gets to reoccupy Winterfell - Stannis arrives not long after Jon's death and has a scene with Melisandre and Shireen, possibly involving tying the latter to the pyre becuase Melisandre is now convinced that Jon is the true hero, and Stannis is not really Azor Ahai Reborn after all, but the man who was destined to lead her to the true hero...

Thus a motive for wanting to resurrect Jon specifically: a chance for Stannis to meet his daughter only to tie her to a funeral pyre... and make a choice... which does not necessarily have to be the same choice that he made in the TV show...

...And if the two kings die (which I believe will be Stannis, plus Theon at long last, he will be spared until now and have the chance to die technically as a king even if not live as one)... and if Stannis takes his sword into the fire with him - apart from waking the Bastard Dragon from death, will it also give true power to the Lightbringer sword?

 

[Ser Creighton]

On 12/1/2016 at 3:45 PM, Lord Varys said:

Since Jon is not likely going to *truly* die considering that his spirit most likely will live on in Ghost, there is no reason why there should be a sacrifice to revive his body if the magic kiss that brought back Beric and Catelyn could work, too. The difficult thing will be get his spirit back into his body thereafter.

The thing is, nobody should have any interest in bringing Jon Snow back. Nobody thinks he has some special destiny. His resurrection most likely is going to be an accident. Borroq will realize that his spirit is in Ghost and Mel might accidentally resurrect his body when she gives him the funeral rites, just as Thoros once did with Beric.

There has no weirdo super special magical ritual to bring him back.

However, that doesn't mean Shireen is not going to be sacrificed. It just will happen much later in the story, after Stannis and his daughter are reconciled (and things are much worse).

It's not hard for a Warg to move from an animal body to his own. If that is in fact what happens. I don't see it being a big stretch for him. But technically, if Jon's body dies, then he goes on to a second life Ghost, that's what it is called after all. If his body is revived via the last kiss ritual which is actually a standard ritual for red priests. And Mel of course could have a vision saying last kiss him or some thing. If Jon then leaves his second life and returns to his old revived body Jon would not be returning to his 1st life, he would be leaving his second life, for a third life.

I don't think it would be accidental with Jon in terms of Mel, I would think the Wildlings who have the numbers would want Jon burned and have some sort of old god ceremony.

After he is revived Jon will be part Zombie and part fire. So a zombie that craves cooked human flesh rather than raw. So Jon will then have Shireen roasted and he will then eat BBQ Shireen.  Num Num Num. Stannis will freak out kill Mel catch on fire and fall off the wall on the wrong side and come back and Ice Zombie, opposite of Jon, then Jon and Stannis will have a war. Stannis won't actually know he has changed after all Stannis is a very cold person and already has blue eyes, he will just get hyped up about surviving the fall think he actually is the Prince that was promised and can survive anything.

Eventually the Others show up and are going to be like who are you. Stannis will respond he is the prince that was promised. At which point a battle erupts which turns into a giant snowball fight, ice vs. ice which becomes really confusing for the others as they think they are under friendly fire the whole time and not sure where to throw. At this point Stannis will declare victory, say he has done more than Robert now by defeating the Others, and kills himself so he can join Proudwing and Shireen in the after life and escape his wife.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Hey OP, I could see it happening that way, or something similar. Shirene is definitely not making it to spring.

I think there might be no special magic to king's blood, for sacrifice purposes. The magic comes from human sacrifice itself, regardless of who the victim is. It's about taking a human life. What's so special about the notion of a king? - outside of the myth about the sacrificial king (and there it's clear that being designated as king by your group is what made you attractive for human sacrifice, not something about your "blood"; you become the victim because it's *decided* you're the target)

Tying it to king's blood is a way of disguising how evil it is - it makes you focus on the special abstract notion of a king and what is a king and what makes a king bla bla bla, instead of on the person being killed. It makes the whole thing sound like a very rare occurrence, a special case. And if you want to continue to believe that you're serving a good purpose, you construct these little mental tricks that allow you to resolve your cognitive dissonance. If people knew you could achieve your ends by burning anyone, then no one would feel safe, and your whole "thing" would start to be seen for what it is - killing people for a magic boost. Evil. This to me seems in line with how Melissandre is shown to explain away all the questionable things she does.

This may be so deeply ingrained in the red religion that Melisandre might firmly believe it. And in the end, if they believe it needs to be king's blood, they'll act that way and the outcome will be the same. 

But I think it's more in keeping with busting the tropes if it turns out that there's nothing "glamorous" about human sacrifice as a magical use of king's blood, that the entire point of human sacrifice as a magical ritual is that it's just about the willingness to kill for power.