Why haven't the Boltons been told about the Wights?

[Jadakiss]

Yes stannis seems to be the only one who knows about the real threat and cares about the real threat. He makes comments that humans are only making themselves weaker for when the real fight comes. Roose is a dick, but he is not stupid in big matters. He is still alive in a powerful position for a reason.

Yes I know ravens were sent out everywhere. But why has there not been anyone who went and talked to Roose and provided the same evidence they showed to other people about the wights? Him and stannis wouldnt be dumb enough to fight each other first before the living vs dead battle.

Has there been any section where someone goes and tries to persuade roose? or even explain the situation? if so I cant find it

[Ser Walter of AShwood]

Ravens were sent out during the WOTFK. Roose was not in Winterfell, or in control of the North.
He was also too busy fighting a war and climbing up the power-ladder.

So any ravens that were sent, were dismissed by the powers that be at the moment (nobody below Moat Cailin took this message seriously but the Onion knight). Maester Luwin has been killed in the sack of Winterfell, so who was in Winterfell to tell Roose when he finally did arrive there? The south didn't tell him, the North now lives in fear of him and the Maester that could've told him is now dead.

De doesn't know, and if he is told now, he will dismiss it as a conspiracy against him, trying to lure his army out of Winterfell.

[Lord Varys]

It is a big plot hole that Jon Snow does not try to convince Roose and Ramsay about the threat the Others pose. If the Boltons won and the Wall falls then it would be essentially Jon's fault that the North is not properly prepared for the fight against the Others. Hell, Jon didn't even care to send an envoy to White Harbor to convince Lord Wyman of the seriousness of this issue.

[Ser Walter of AShwood]

While I agree that it is a major plot hole in the story, remember, they have sent out ravens before. And an envoy was sent to kingslanding (with the hand of one of the wights). None of that got any response.
Now, finally, someone responds to the messages and the impending threat, I can't blame them for placing all their cards on the only person who responds to the multiple calls that have been made.

Also, sending out envoys will diminish the already badly populated wall.

But agreed, it is a plot hole and the NW should have continued to convince Westeros about the impending threat, by keeping to send ravens, envoys or whatever to all castles in the north and all major castles in the south.

[Macgregor of the North]

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is a big plot hole that Jon Snow does not try to convince Roose and Ramsay about the threat the Others pose. If the Boltons won and the Wall falls then it would be essentially Jon's fault that the North is not properly prepared for the fight against the Others. Hell, Jon didn't even care to send an envoy to White Harbor to convince Lord Wyman of the seriousness of this issue.

I'm not sure of your logic in this. 

@Ser Walter of AShwood has already pointed out that any attempt like that by Jon would be met with huge suspicion by the Boltons as some kind of plot against them. 

Even if the ridiculous notion of Roose and Ramsay giving up there position to ally with Stannis against the Others just because they were asked to came to fruition, the North would still be unprepared.

The War we have read about through the books has left the North under prepared so it is not a plot hole and it would not be Jon's fault either.

There is no way that the North being under prepared for the Others could be Jon's fault. The people who instigated the War by playing the Gane of thrones are the ones who have left not only the North, but the realm, under prepared for the Others.

[Lord Varys]

10 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I'm not sure of your logic in this. 

@Ser Walter of AShwood has already pointed out that any attempt like that by Jon would be met with huge suspicion by the Boltons as some kind of plot against them. 

So what? It would have been his duty. It is not just the Boltons, he also didn't sent envoys to the Dustins, Umbers, Karstarks, Mormonts, etc.

10 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Even if the ridiculous notion of Roose and Ramsay giving up there position to ally with Stannis against the Others just because they were asked to came to fruition, the North would still be unprepared.

Sure, they might still lose but Jon helped that the North would be caught with its breeches down. He made no attempt to convince them or even help them to tie them up.

10 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

The War we have read about through the books has left the North under prepared so it is not a plot hole and it would not be Jon's fault either.

It would be because he could have given people the necessary information so that they could flee down south or hide in the Neck or even come up to the Wall to help hold it. While it stands it is the only defense the North has.

10 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

There is no way that the North being under prepared for the Others could be Jon's fault. The people who instigated the War by playing the Gane of thrones are the ones who have left not only the North, but the realm, under prepared for the Others.

Sure, but Jon shares the blame by not insisting that Stannis try to reach an understanding with Roose. Instead, he ends up playing the game of thrones as well and dies for it.

[Macgregor of the North]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

So what? It would have been his duty. It is not just the Boltons, he also didn't sent envoys to the Dustins, Umbers, Karstarks, Mormonts, etc.

Who cares, the OP is asking about the Boltons and if Jon approached them trying to convince them to ally with him and Stannis to fight the Others they would view it as a tactic to trick them out of their position, do you deny that?.

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, they might still lose but Jon helped that the North would be caught with its breeches down. He made no attempt to convince them or even help them to tie them up.

But it is not essentialy his fault the North is under prepared for the Others like you said.

 

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, but Jon shares the blame by not insisting that Stannis try to reach an understanding with Roose. Instead, he ends up playing the game of thrones as well and dies for it.

The reason they do not try and reason with the Boltons is..... Do i honestly need to spell that out to you? Havent we already said that would be completely pointless as the Boltons would simply view that as a suspicious plot to trick them out of their position.

The plan is to recapture Winterfell and then bolster that stronghold in preparation for the coming Long Night. The treacherous Boltons are not part of that plan as they cant be trusted. They must be removed first, which Stannis is obviously confident of doing, removing the need to ask them for aid against the Others.

And remember, this OP is about Stannis and the Boltons, not Jon.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

7 hours ago, Jadakiss said:

Yes stannis seems to be the only one who knows about the real threat and cares about the real threat. He makes comments that humans are only making themselves weaker for when the real fight comes. Roose is a dick, but he is not stupid in big matters. He is still alive in a powerful position for a reason.

Yes I know ravens were sent out everywhere. But why has there not been anyone who went and talked to Roose and provided the same evidence they showed to other people about the wights? Him and stannis wouldnt be dumb enough to fight each other first before the living vs dead battle.

Just like Stannis and Renly agreed to set their family squabble aside for the time being, and deal with the Lannisters first.

[Lord Varys]

6 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Who cares, the OP is asking about the Boltons and if Jon approached them trying to convince them to ally with him and Stannis to fight the Others they would view it as a tactic to trick them out of their position, do you deny that?.

I do, especially if he would present evidence supporting his claims. Like, say, march hundreds of wildlings as witnesses who could confirm the existence of the Others to the Dreadfort, Winterfell, or Barrowton.

You don't get to tell me what Roose would do under circumstances we never see in the series because Jon never even thinks of that possibility. That's just an ad hoc explanation as to why my criticism doesn't make any sense.

6 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

But it is not essentialy his fault the North is under prepared for the Others like you said.

Jon is directly responsible for the loss of more Northern lives. Stannis and the Boltons will fight, thousands will die, and the Others will laugh.

6 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

The reason they do not try and reason with the Boltons is..... Do i honestly need to spell that out to you? Havent we already said that would be completely pointless as the Boltons would simply view that as a suspicious plot to trick them out of their position.

No.

6 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

The plan is to recapture Winterfell and then bolster that stronghold in preparation for the coming Long Night. The treacherous Boltons are not part of that plan as they cant be trusted. They must be removed first, which Stannis is obviously confident of doing, removing the need to ask them for aid against the Others.

I know what Stannis' plan is. But that doesn't mean it is good plan or that I like it. It is a stupid plan. Winterfell is not going to help them with the Others. And by the way, Stannis' plan is to unite the North under his rule and the defend the Wall against the Others. He hopes he will get that done before winter comes (he is wrong there) and he will lose a lot of men in the process.

6 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

And remember, this OP is about Stannis and the Boltons, not Jon.

Nope, it is about 'Why haven't the Boltons been told about the wights?' Stannis is just as much to blame for not trying to reach an understanding with the Boltons as Jon is. But Stannis has the excuse of not being the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Jon has no such excuse. His duty would have been to continue to convince all the people in Westeros that the Others are real. Where are the envoys he sending to King Tommen? To Doran Martell? To Euron Greyjoy? To Lord Robert Arryn?

There is no good reason he should not try to go down that road. He thinks about buying food from the Vale but not about telling Robert and Littlefinger about the ultimate danger they are all in? It just doesn't make any sense. Essentially nothing important happens at the Wall throughout ADwD. No battles, no attacks, no severe crises of any sort. He had more than enough time to try to inform 'the realms of Men' that they were in severe danger.

[Macgregor of the North]

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Like, say, march hundreds of wildlings as witnesses who could confirm the existence of the Others to the Dreadfort, Winterfell,

Ok so marching hundreds of Wildlings to outside Winterfell asking Roose Bolton to help them against the Others is gonna result in the Boltons opening up the doors and saying right lads, lets get these Others! Lol, i cant see it. The outcome i see from that is many dead men after a battle between two sets of men.

19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon is directly responsible for the loss of more Northern lives. Stannis and the Boltons will fight, thousands will die, and the Others will laugh.

But is essentialy NOT Jons fault.

19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But that doesn't mean it is good plan or that I like it

Who cares, you sound like the people over on the other thread who are unhappy with GRRMs answer to the Bran assasination ploy that Joffrey instigated.

 

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And by the way, Stannis' plan is to unite the North under his rule and the defend the Wall against the Others.

Yes, and the untrustworthy Boltons are NOT part of that plan so they must be rooted out and killed before this happens.

 

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Nope, it is about 'Why haven't the Boltons been told about the wights?'

Thats the title but if you actually read the OP it is talking about Stannis and him and the Boltons coming to an agreement and not fighting each other but joining forces aginst the common foe, which it is obvious Stannis sees as a pointless venture hence we have never seen an envoy from Stannis asking the Boltons to do this because Stannis' plan is to root them out for battle, not a parley to join to fight the Others.

[Free Northman Reborn]

But the Watch did ask the Northern lords for assistance, when a 30,000 strong army of Wildlings was at their gate. No one bothered  to respond. Why would it be any different if they started talking about fairy tale walking corpses that no one believes in in any case?

The Watch was on its own, until Stannis arrived.

[Ser Walter of AShwood]

11 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

But the Watch did ask the Northern lords for assistance, when a 30,000 strong army of Wildlings was at their gate. No one bothered  to respond. Why would it be any different if they started talking about fairy tale walking corpses that no one believes in in any case?

The Watch was on its own, until Stannis arrived.

If this were facebook, you would get a like for this post .

[Lord Varys]

7 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Ok so marching hundreds of Wildlings to outside Winterfell asking Roose Bolton to help them against the Others is gonna result in the Boltons opening up the doors and saying right lads, lets get these Others! Lol, i cant see it. The outcome i see from that is many dead men after a battle between two sets of men.

If they just used hundreds of women and children Roose wouldn't have been afraid. Besides, it could also have been only a few dozens. I was using hyperbole there because we have thousands of wildlings who can confirm the existence of the Others and wights yet nobody ever uses them to that end.

7 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

But is essentialy NOT Jons fault.

It is, because he doesn't do anything to prevent what's happening. He essentially shares Stannis' view or the Boltons or hates them even more. He could have done something to prevent this additional bloodshed.

7 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Who cares, you sound like the people over on the other thread who are unhappy with GRRMs answer to the Bran assasination ploy that Joffrey instigated.

Stick to the topic.

7 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Yes, and the untrustworthy Boltons are NOT part of that plan so they must be rooted out and killed before this happens.

Is that truly the case? Neither Stannis nor Jon ever discuss the reasons why the Boltons have to be put down. The only reason given is that they have bent the knee to Tommen and are the new Lannister-appointed rulers of the North. Nobody ever mentioned anything about them not being trusted to not make common cause with them against the Others.

Even the Golden Company considers making common cause with Stannis against a common enemy. If they can consider that when dealing with the Lannisters, a mortal enemy, it is utterly ridiculous to suggests something as stupid as the Boltons would not choose survival over dominance in the North.

This is not just a mistake in Stannis' and Jon's thinking but it is huge plot hole in the entire story. People would desperately try to convince anyone that the fairy-tale monster actually exist. They would not just sit on their asses, diminish their chances of survival, and presuppose that any attempts to spread the tale are doomed from the start. That's just completely stupid behavior.

7 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Thats the title but if you actually read the OP it is talking about Stannis and him and the Boltons coming to an agreement and not fighting each other but joining forces aginst the common foe, which it is obvious Stannis sees as a pointless venture hence we have never seen an envoy from Stannis asking the Boltons to do this because Stannis' plan is to root them out for battle, not a parley to join to fight the Others.

I see no problem with extending the topic to Jon (and basically anybody else who could have told the Boltons the truth). Why do you?

[devilish]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

It is a big plot hole that Jon Snow does not try to convince Roose and Ramsay about the threat the Others pose. If the Boltons won and the Wall falls then it would be essentially Jon's fault that the North is not properly prepared for the fight against the Others. Hell, Jon didn't even care to send an envoy to White Harbor to convince Lord Wyman of the seriousness of this issue.

 

Jon Snow knew that it was in Roose interest to destroy any drop of Stark blood out there and he also knew that he was a threat to them. What kept him alive was the fact that he's the NW lord commander and far away from Roose's domain. Roose would have struggled to find support in invading the wall and put Jon Snow's head on a stake. However if the NW had to ask for Roose's help, well.... battles can be messy and accidents do happen. If lets say during a fight Jon Snow ends up at the receiving end of friendly fire, then no one can really pin that on Roose can they?

 

[Lord Varys]

Just now, devilish said:

Jon Snow knew that it was in Roose interest to destroy any drop of Stark blood out there. What kept him alive was the fact that he's the NW lord commander. He probably thought that the Boltons would use this opportunity to get close to Jon Snow and backstab him just as they did with his half brother. 

Does Jon actually know enough details about the Red Wedding to know that Roose helped arrange it? This is never discussed in detail.

Why should Jon believe that Roose would want to kill the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Roose knows about their oaths, and the Northmen take them very seriously. Jon effectively no longer exists as a Stark relative. Only Cersei doesn't understand that.

In addition, Jon's view on Roose never really comes up in the story. What makes you believe Jon believes the stuff you think he does?

[devilish]

26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Does Jon actually know enough details about the Red Wedding to know that Roose helped arrange it? This is never discussed in detail.

Why should Jon believe that Roose would want to kill the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Roose knows about their oaths, and the Northmen take them very seriously. Jon effectively no longer exists as a Stark relative. Only Cersei doesn't understand that.

In addition, Jon's view on Roose never really comes up in the story. What makes you believe Jon believes the stuff you think he does?

Roose knows about oaths but he also knows that young men who hold a grudge can be reckless and dangerous. He is also a man of his time ie he’s superstitious. He probably believes that bastards are born treacherous and dangerous and he can testify to that himself. Ramsey Snow had been trouble for Roose and had probably robbed him from his heir. 

What is protecting both Roose and Jon Snow from skinning one another is the distance between them. Roose is 100% sure that Jon won’t kill him because he can’t march armies to the South without breaking his vows. Jon Snow knows that Roose won’t kill him because he can’t march armies to the Wall without causing a diplomatic scandal of epic proportions. If that boundaries break then Roose can ‘accidently’ kill Jon and Jon can ‘accidently’ kill Roose. After all, battles can be messy and friendly fire is common.

Not to forget that Roose know that Jon Snow can be released from his vows and end up being legitimised if a king wants it. He also knows that Robb Stark died as a king which makes his heirs king. It only takes 1 king or queen to declare Jon Snow free from his vows and a Stark (Stannis, Sansa, Faegon, Danny or even an older Sweet Robin who decides to revenge his family by declaring the Vale independent) to cause havoc in the North.  If Jon Snow is wise enough to win back Lannister’s support he might well end up becoming their own nuke option against Roose if the Bolton decide to stop playing to the crown’s tune.
So as a resume Jon Snow can’t trust Roose because he’s a turncoat and a usurper who already broke his vows. Roose can’t trust Jon because he’s a bastard, who got Stark’s blood in him and who have every motive to stick his sword inside his throat. 
 

[The Sleeper]

Aren't they? I always assumed that there has been semi-regular correspondence between the Night's Watch and the northern houses. That and the envoys Stannis has sent should have given a general idea of what is going in at the Wall. They certainly know about the Wildling invasion, Stannis' arrival and Jon's elevation. We aren't given specific times and sources of where they got that information, but it is going on in the background.

Whether they are being given credence is a different matter. After all, until recently there were very few people south of the Wall that have faced wights. And as other posters have mentioned before the issue had been widely disseminated since the Old Bear was attacked in his tower and then requested assistance from anyone he could a raven to. I don't see the need for specific notification. The northern houses simply have different priorities right now.

The absence of any effort on Jon's behalf to make contact with the Boltons is quite deliberate. Jon had trouble making himself sign a letter to the Iron Throne, let alone collaborate with the Boltons. They were at the stage where they pretended that the other did not exist.

[Free Northman Reborn]

In any case, is it as big a plot hole as Wex knowing about Rickon being on Skagos? Nope. There are many plot holes. Even if this is one, and I'm not saying it is, then it is merely to ensure that the Boltons remain an enemy until Martin reaches whatever endgame he has intended for them. He clearly doesn't want them to be the saviours of the North, or to be allies to the Watch.

So that's pretty much that.

[Lord Varys]

@devilish

There is no precedent for anybody ever leaving the Night's Watch, and neither is there a precedent for a king trying to do this. Robb intended to try it but he died. He could possibly legitimize Jon in his will, making him a Stark but he would still be bound by his NW vows.

The idea that anybody in the North would accept some legitimized bastard breaking his NW vows doesn't make any sense. They are very harsh on this kind of thing. If you leave the Wall you die. Those are the rules. And there are no exceptions.

We are talking about the old ways of the First Men here, not the ways of the Faith where vows and promises are nothing but pudding if the Iron Throne and the High Septon offer you a way out. And even they are not likely to allow somebody to leave the NW. The High Septon offered Maester Aemon to release him from his vows to become a maester but there is a reason that Aemon thereafter decided to go to the Wall - you simply don't come back from the Wall.

And no, Roose should face no repercussions from anyone should he ever march his army to the Wall and take Jon's head. Kings and lords have done this kind of thing before when the Lord Commanders of the Night's Watch forgot their duty or turned against the Realm. And the Watch would most definitely hand Jon over than provoke Roose to put them all to the sword (which he could easily do considering that only a few men are left).

8 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

Aren't they? I always assumed that there has been semi-regular correspondence between the Night's Watch and the northern houses. That and the envoys Stannis has sent should have given a general idea of what is going in at the Wall. They certainly know about the Wildling invasion, Stannis' arrival and Jon's elevation. We aren't given specific times and sources of where they got that information, but it is going on in the background.

Whether they are being given credence is a different matter. After all, until recently there were very few people south of the Wall that have faced wights. And as other posters have mentioned before the issue had been widely disseminated since the Old Bear was attacked in his tower and then requested assistance from anyone he could a raven to. I don't see the need for specific notification. The northern houses simply have different priorities right now.

The absence of any effort on Jon's behalf to make contact with the Boltons is quite deliberate. Jon had trouble making himself sign a letter to the Iron Throne, let alone collaborate with the Boltons. They were at the stage where they pretended that the other did not exist.

The NW doesn't really get the picture of the threat that killed the men at the Fist because Sam failed to write a detailed account. Stannis and the others only get general pleas for help connected to Mance's march on the Wall not specific evidence about the threat the Others pose.

Stannis made the connection because of the vision he had in combination with Aemon's letter.

The full details about the Fist would only have reached the Wall after the survivors from Craster's came back. And then things were getting very ugly with the whole preparation for Mance's attack.

But after Stannis defeated the wildlings they had the means to try to convince everybody what the real danger was. Why doesn't Cersei ever receive a letter about all that?

10 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

In any case, is it as big a plot hole as Wex knowing about Rickon being on Skagos? Nope. There are many plot holes. Even if this is one, and I'm not saying it is, then it is merely to ensure that the Boltons remain an enemy until Martin reaches whatever endgame he has intended for them. He clearly doesn't want them to be the saviours of the North, or to be allies to the Watch.

So that's pretty much that.

Pointing out other plot holes doesn't help with that one. And, yeah, I find the whole Skagos thing ridiculous. How should Osha get there in the first place? We have no reason to believe that ships are going from the mainland to Skagos on a regular basis. Not to mention that the boy would have to get close enough to Osha and Rickon to learn where they were going without being discovered by her or Shaggydog. Another rather implausible aspect of this story. Not to mention that Osha had apparently no idea where they would be going when she left Winterfell. How long would Wex have followed that until she revealed their destination to Rickon in conversation? Days? Weeks?

[Macgregor of the North]

59 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Stick to the topic.

I was. The topic was about why nobody (namely Stannis as the OP clearly stated) had went to the Boltons with their worries about the Others, seeking alliance. I answered it as well. I did stray off topic at times, but it was only to participate in your off topic discussion on how Jon is to blame for the North being underprepared for the Others, which he's not.