Why haven't the Boltons been told about the Wights?

[The Sleeper]

24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

The NW doesn't really get the picture of the threat that killed the men at the Fist because Sam failed to write a detailed account. Stannis and the others only get general pleas for help connected to Mance's march on the Wall not specific evidence about the threat the Others pose.

Stannis made the connection because of the vision he had in combination with Aemon's letter.

The full details about the Fist would only have reached the Wall after the survivors from Craster's came back. And then things were getting very ugly with the whole preparation for Mance's attack.

But after Stannis defeated the wildlings they had the means to try to convince everybody what the real danger was. Why doesn't Cersei ever receive a letter about all that?

The first wight attacks date back to Game where Mormont was attacked in his tower. In response to that Mormont sent Thorne with a moving hand in a jar as an envoy to the Iron Throne. The matter has been communicated on numerous occasions. Presumably Stannis even told the northern lords he approached for an alliance, though of course him being Stannis he would have prefaced them with demands for allegiance. What further proof did he have to offer after defeating the wildlings? Their word or his visions? There is no way Roose does not know.

Responds likely range from complete disbelief to failure to appreciate the magnitude of the situation. Roose is busy consolidating his power and the others don't have the luxury of ignoring him.

The Iron Throne has received continuous pleas for assistance from the Night Watch since book one. Stannis can hardly turn to them when he is claiming the Throne for himself. And Jon cannot even fathom working with Lannisters and their representatives. There is no plot hole. The issue is addressed. Jon himself makes a comment about the Magnar and how he would feel in his place about working with the Lannisters. And yes it is a failure on Jon's part. He should have made the attempt of communicating with Roose directly, if only to keep up appearances.

[devilish]

48 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

@devilish

There is no precedent for anybody ever leaving the Night's Watch, and neither is there a precedent for a king trying to do this. Robb intended to try it but he died. He could possibly legitimize Jon in his will, making him a Stark but he would still be bound by his NW vows.

The idea that anybody in the North would accept some legitimized bastard breaking his NW vows doesn't make any sense. They are very harsh on this kind of thing. If you leave the Wall you die. Those are the rules. And there are no exceptions.

We are talking about the old ways of the First Men here, not the ways of the Faith where vows and promises are nothing but pudding if the Iron Throne and the High Septon offer you a way out. And even they are not likely to allow somebody to leave the NW. The High Septon offered Maester Aemon to release him from his vows to become a maester but there is a reason that Aemon thereafter decided to go to the Wall - you simply don't come back from the Wall.

And no, Roose should face no repercussions from anyone should he ever march his army to the Wall and take Jon's head. Kings and lords have done this kind of thing before when the Lord Commanders of the Night's Watch forgot their duty or turned against the Realm. And the Watch would most definitely hand Jon over than provoke Roose to put them all to the sword (which he could easily do considering that only a few men are left).

The NW doesn't really get the picture of the threat that killed the men at the Fist because Sam failed to write a detailed account. Stannis and the others only get general pleas for help connected to Mance's march on the Wall not specific evidence about the threat the Others pose.

Stannis made the connection because of the vision he had in combination with Aemon's letter.

The full details about the Fist would only have reached the Wall after the survivors from Craster's came back. And then things were getting very ugly with the whole preparation for Mance's attack.

But after Stannis defeated the wildlings they had the means to try to convince everybody what the real danger was. Why doesn't Cersei ever receive a letter about all that?

Pointing out other plot holes doesn't help with that one. And, yeah, I find the whole Skagos thing ridiculous. How should Osha get there in the first place? We have no reason to believe that ships are going from the mainland to Skagos on a regular basis. Not to mention that the boy would have to get close enough to Osha and Rickon to learn where they were going without being discovered by her or Shaggydog. Another rather implausible aspect of this story. Not to mention that Osha had apparently no idea where they would be going when she left Winterfell. How long would Wex have followed that until she revealed their destination to Rickon in conversation? Days? Weeks?

There’s no precedent for anybody ever leaving the NW however these were not normal times. Most of the Stark had been wiped off. Their king had been betrayed and killed by one of their own and the person who did so is now leading the North. The iron islanders and the wildlings have spilled inside the North + dead people will soon follow. If Stannis who is so rigid with the rules think that a king has enough power to break somebody’s vows from the NW then it’s reasonable to say that this can happen

There again, I think that the big issue here is not the vows but the mutual trust between the two. Jon sees Roose as a traitor whom no one can rely upon. Its within Roose interest to get rid of anybody with Stark blood in him. Roose is a man of his time. He is incredibly superstitious and believe that bastards are treacherous people who will stick it to your neck when you least expect it (well he’s Ramsey’s father, so he got first-hand information on that). 

Currently both are protected by their vows which keeps Roose out of NW territory as long as the LC obeys the rules and the LC keeps out of Roose’s territory because else he would break his vows. But what would happen if the boundaries become so thin that Roose and Jon ends up fighting side by side? Battles are messy and friendly fire is common +  it serves as a good excuse for killing somebody and get away with it. Considering that the two do not know one another can Roose seriously say that he can fight at the wall with the absolute certainity that Jon Snow won’t make him a target practice? Can Jon Snow be 100% sure that once the fighting starts one of the Boltons won’t try and kill him?
 

[Schwarze Sonne]

There's no hard evidence that proves the existence of the Others. I doubt Roose would believe the wildlings, or the Night's Watch that Jon is in control.

Piss me off! Tyrion is totally to blame for his pettiness when he left Thorne waiting until the wight's hand rot and lost its magical effect that kept it moved. He's the damn cause of war, famine, plague and the Long Night that Never Ends.

I can't believe Jon would be blamed when he tried, but no one south of the Wall cared because of the GOT.

[Jadakiss]

Roose being in the north so close to it all......cannot see him not caring if he knew for a fact it was true

[Maxxine]

On December 1, 2016 at 10:14 PM, Jadakiss said:

Yes stannis seems to be the only one who knows about the real threat and cares about the real threat. He makes comments that humans are only making themselves weaker for when the real fight comes. Roose is a dick, but he is not stupid in big matters. He is still alive in a powerful position for a reason.

Yes I know ravens were sent out everywhere. But why has there not been anyone who went and talked to Roose and provided the same evidence they showed to other people about the wights? Him and stannis wouldnt be dumb enough to fight each other first before the living vs dead battle.

Has there been any section where someone goes and tries to persuade roose? or even explain the situation? if so I cant find it

Just wanted to point out that Stannis would be dumb enough to still fight Roose. Or maybe the better word is prideful. If Roose refused to yield WF & submit to Stannis but says hey lets forego this for a moment to fight (not that Roose would say this but for the sake of example)  the others Stannis would want to fight Roose first. It's the reason why he had to kill Renly and refused to even have discussions with Robb or the Vale even thouhh any of options could've helped him easily invade KL back in Clash,

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is a big plot hole that Jon Snow does not try to convince Roose and Ramsay about the threat the Others pose. If the Boltons won and the Wall falls then it would be essentially Jon's fault that the North is not properly prepared for the fight against the Others. Hell, Jon didn't even care to send an envoy to White Harbor to convince Lord Wyman of the seriousness of this issue.

I think plot hole  is the wrong word to use. I think it's just a decision Jon either didn't think about or just decided not to make. Maybe you could argue he should have but that doesn't make it a plot hole. It could also be argued that not sending envoys anywhere was the right decision. The Watch had been begging for help for 4 books and for 4 books they had been mostly ignored by everyone including the North (w/ exception of Stannis who came last minute). What reason would Jon have to believe that someone would listen now? Especially about something like the Others. I'm not even convinced everyone in the Watch believes in the true danger of the Others. So maybe Jon thought his resources should be spent on other things that had a better chance of helping like letting the wildlings through so they wouldn't become extra wights and could help the Watch fight and manning the abandoned castles along the wall.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is a big plot hole that Jon Snow does not try to convince Roose and Ramsay about the threat the Others pose. If the Boltons won and the Wall falls then it would be essentially Jon's fault that the North is not properly prepared for the fight against the Others. Hell, Jon didn't even care to send an envoy to White Harbor to convince Lord Wyman of the seriousness of this issue.

It is not a plot hole. It is GRRM writing Jon that way. I believe he did it on purpose. I have no big stake in this argument either way, but it is not a plot hole. Whether Jon should or should not have contacted the Boltons to make peace, it is in Jon's character and especially the irony of his character arc in aDwD, where he spends the whole book simultaneously trying to convince the Night's Watch to make peace with the Free Folk (the non racist way to refer to them) while also both literally (through his actions) and figuratively (in his mind) not making peace with the Lannisters or the Boltons. Not a plot hole. One hell of a great character arc written by a spectacular author.

[The Sleeper]

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

It is not a plot hole. It is GRRM writing Jon that way. I believe he did it on purpose. I have no big stake in this argument either way, but it is not a plot hole. Whether Jon should or should not have contacted the Boltons to make peace, it is in Jon's character and especially the irony of his character arc in aDwD, where he spends the whole book simultaneously trying to convince the Night's Watch to make peace with the Free Folk (the non racist way to refer to them) while also both literally (through his actions) and figuratively (in his mind) not making peace with the Lannisters or the Boltons. Not a plot hole. One hell of a great character arc written by a spectacular author.

The issue is addressed three times. The first is in the Jon/Sam chapters where Jon finds it difficult signing the letter to the Iron Throne disavowing allegiance to Stannis. The most overt way is Sigorn, who like Jon finds himself in a position to have to collaborate with his father's killers. It is no accident that Jon examines the issue only through someone else who in this respect is in the same boat as he. There is also Janos Slynt's execution. Not only the fact that he kills one of the known Lannister sympathizers, but the manner of it, as he kills him in the traditional Stark manner. I agree that it is quite deliberate that Jon never even considers the option. The closer he comes is by putting himself in Sigorn's shoes.

Stannis is Stannis. He wants the Iron Throne. The defense of the realm is integral as duty to his claim as the King. Melisandre perceives it in the same way. Being King is part of the Azor Ahai mantle. He can't both politically and personally ally with anyone who refutes that claim.

[Lord Varys]

It is a plot hole that this possibility is simply not discussed and then dismissed for some (strange and contrived) reason. The people at the Wall need all the help they can get. The wildlings wanted to cross the Wall to hide behind it. They know what's coming. They would want all the kneelers to know so that they can all defend that Wall together (or perhaps only the kneelers do that job while they enjoy the sun of Dorne).

Trying to convince me that this is not a plot hole with as contrived an explanation as Jon (or anyone at the Wall, really) deciding we send no envoys because we don't believe anybody will listen is not going to work. Why not just suggest that they all abandon their posts and take a ship to the Summer Isles because they all must know that they essentially stand no chance to defeat the Others on their own.

It is pretty clear that they are all very aware that they have way too few men to hold the Wall when push comes to shove. And from that point of view continuing the civil war is insane. What's the difference between Roose and Ramsay and the Weeper? I'll help you: None. Yet the latter gets a free pass from Jon while his last act was to declare war on Ramsay (and earlier on doing anything he could that Stannis would defeat the Boltons in battle).

The idea that the Boltons are less trustworthy than the Weeper (or any other cruel wildling chieftain) is insane and completely unjustified. Roose is a rational and calculating man. Many willdings might not be. Jon didn't even know most of the people who came through that gate, right? The idea that a decent percentage among those care as much about the brats they handed to him as hostages as Roose cares about Ramsay is not far-fetched at all. Those are all hard men, and the loss of family members should be very common every winter.

The thing is, which the wars cooling down at the end of ASoS there would have been a great opportunity to warn Westeros about the threat the Others pose. George earlier on found great ways how/why people ignore that threat but he really dropped the ball in AFfC and ADwD. Even if people in the end decide not to listen - they should have heard the stories coming from the Wall only to dismiss them as superstition, fairy-tales, lies, etc. But nobody hears any of those stories. And that simply is a plot hole.

[The Sleeper]

What is the alien concept and contrived notion? People failing to act in their own best interest because of personal preoccupations and enmities? Or other people ignoring a situation until it bites them in the ass?

Roose and the rest of the northern lords are aware of the situation at the Wall. It is impossible that they aren't. It is just not their immediate concern yet. And to be fair they have more immediate problems. Jon knows he is not supposed to take sides. He hates the Lannisters and the Boltons. It is visceral not rational. The difference between the Weeper and Ramsay is that the former has not hurt Jon's family. It is part of his arc that he is asking from others what he is not willing to even consider for himself.

[Macgregor of the North]

11 hours ago, Jadakiss said:

Roose being in the north so close to it all......cannot see him not caring if he knew for a fact it was true

I think it's the idea that there is no way to prove it to him without him thinking it is a plot to trick him out of his position, other than Roose actually seeing Wights and Others, he will always have suspicions of such stories.

[The Sleeper]

5 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I think it's the idea that there is no way to prove it to him without him thinking it is a plot to trick him out of his position, other than Roose actually seeing Wights and Others, he will always have suspicions of such stories.

For others that is probably the case. Roose would think that there is too much smoke for there not to be a fire and apart from that the wildling are an issue of their own.

For Roose consolidating the North would be the first priority. Objectively speaking he wouldn't be able to do much without accomplishing this first. Secondly Roose would much rather throw others into the fire first rather than expend his own assets step in personally so to speak when there is no other choice.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I think it's the idea that there is no way to prove it to him without him thinking it is a plot to trick him out of his position, other than Roose actually seeing Wights and Others, he will always have suspicions of such stories.

There is no reason for us to think Roose would behave in such a way. It never comes up so we don't know whether he believes in the Others or not.

2 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

For others that is probably the case. Roose would think that there is too much smoke for there not to be a fire and apart from that the wildling are an issue of their own.

For Roose consolidating the North would be the first priority. Objectively speaking he wouldn't be able to do much without accomplishing this first. Secondly Roose would much rather throw others into the fire first rather than expend his own assets step in personally so to speak when there is no other choice.

The way the Northmen behave in the aftermath of the defeat of the wildlings is another huge problem. Aemon send letters to all the Northern castles begging for help in the fight against Mance. Because, you know, the wildlings would raid their lands and steal their crops after they had defeated the NW and crossed the Wall.

Yet not a single northern house is actually thanking Stannis for what he has done. Those people should all kiss his feet for taking care of that problem for them.

We can perhaps say that the people didn't believe the stories about the Others for some reason (despite the fact that more and more coherent stories about their existence would have arrived. After all, it is not that far from Castle Black to Last Hearth or many other Northern strongholds. People spin long and elaborated theories what Lyanna and the knights at the tower knew about the Sack yet nobody wonders why the Northmen don't know or care what happened at the Wall? That just doesn't make much sense.

A calculating guy like Roose would have listened if Stannis had offered a truce because of the Others. I mean, it is Stannis talking, a man who would break before he bends. He would not offer a truce unless he had a good reason to believe they had a common enemy, right? The fact that nobody even considers the option is just silly. There are hints that the gang at the Wall doesn't think the Others will strike soon - but even so, battles cost lives, and dead men are sorely to be missed when the Others finally make their move.

If there is a place where civil war should have been averted - or where people should at least have made every attempt to avert it - it would have been the North in ADwD. And the story simply doesn't reflect that. People might be ignorant and stupid in Westeros but they are not as stupid and ignorant as that.

[The Sleeper]

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no reason for us to think Roose would behave in such a way. It never comes up so we don't know whether he believes in the Others or not.

The way the Northmen behave in the aftermath of the defeat of the wildlings is another huge problem. Aemon send letters to all the Northern castles begging for help in the fight against Mance. Because, you know, the wildlings would raid their lands and steal their crops after they had defeated the NW and crossed the Wall.

Yet not a single northern house is actually thanking Stannis for what he has done. Those people should all kiss his feet for taking care of that problem for them.

We can perhaps say that the people didn't believe the stories about the Others for some reason (despite the fact that more and more coherent stories about their existence would have arrived. After all, it is not that far from Castle Black to Last Hearth or many other Northern strongholds. People spin long and elaborated theories what Lyanna and the knights at the tower knew about the Sack yet nobody wonders why the Northmen don't know or care what happened at the Wall? That just doesn't make much sense.

A calculating guy like Roose would have listened if Stannis had offered a truce because of the Others. I mean, it is Stannis talking, a man who would break before he bends. He would not offer a truce unless he had a good reason to believe they had a common enemy, right? The fact that nobody even considers the option is just silly. There are hints that the gang at the Wall doesn't think the Others will strike soon - but even so, battles cost lives, and dead men are sorely to be missed when the Others finally make their move.

If there is a place where civil war should have been averted - or where people should at least have made every attempt to avert it - it would have been the North in ADwD. And the story simply doesn't reflect that. People might be ignorant and stupid in Westeros but they are not as stupid and ignorant as that.

The wildlings were refugees not an army. At their peak they had at best four to five thousand warriors. Who are armed with stone weapons for the most part and have no discipline or training for formal combat. Roose has about six thousand fully trained and armored troops. Raids are a problem. Being obliterated is a bigger one.

Why are you insisting they don't know? The Night's Watch does not exist in a vacuum. From the various letters to refugees from Mole town they've gotten information all throughout the timeline of the books. They have got more urgent problems than that. Half the houses have their leadership in shambles. Greatjon is a hostage for instance, meaning the Umbers have no clear leadership. Same goes with the Cerwyns. Others are occupied.

Roose might have listened to a proposed truce. From everything you've read about Stannis throughout the books, does he sound like a man who would make such a proposition? And then what? looms things don't happen unless immediate destruction looms.

How would the North be unified? Who would make decisions? Who would dictate strategy? Who would bare the cost? And what happens afterwards? Organization of that magnitude, particularly in the mess the North is after Storm, is very very difficult. 

When the people who are elligible for doing so are irreconcilable enemies, well you get what goes on in Dance.

You could well argue that jeopardizing the prospect falls on Jon's and Stannis' shoulders. It's part of their characterization and quite consistent with what has gone before.

You may not feel that the issue has been addressed adequately, but it has been addressed.

[WSmith84]

I think a much bigger plot hole is that we never see Robb receive a message from Mormont, with Jon's signature also on it. Once Mormont knows wights are real, wouldn't Winterfell be the first place you'd write to? And if Robb is in the Riverlands, Riverrun? But we never see Robb, Cat, Edmure, Bran etc. with any kind of letter outlining the threat. I mean, it could have been disbelieved or ignored (even if Jon swore it was true) but that it didn't happen at all bothers me.

[Maxxine]

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is a plot hole that this possibility is simply not discussed and then dismissed for some (strange and contrived) reason. The people at the Wall need all the help they can get. The wildlings wanted to cross the Wall to hide behind it. They know what's coming. They would want all the kneelers to know so that they can all defend that Wall together (or perhaps only the kneelers do that job while they enjoy the sun of Dorne).

Trying to convince me that this is not a plot hole with as contrived an explanation as Jon (or anyone at the Wall, really) deciding we send no envoys because we don't believe anybody will listen is not going to work. Why not just suggest that they all abandon their posts and take a ship to the Summer Isles because they all must know that they essentially stand no chance to defeat the Others on their own.

It is pretty clear that they are all very aware that they have way too few men to hold the Wall when push comes to shove. And from that point of view continuing the civil war is insane. What's the difference between Roose and Ramsay and the Weeper? I'll help you: None. Yet the latter gets a free pass from Jon while his last act was to declare war on Ramsay (and earlier on doing anything he could that Stannis would defeat the Boltons in battle).

The idea that the Boltons are less trustworthy than the Weeper (or any other cruel wildling chieftain) is insane and completely unjustified. Roose is a rational and calculating man. Many willdings might not be. Jon didn't even know most of the people who came through that gate, right? The idea that a decent percentage among those care as much about the brats they handed to him as hostages as Roose cares about Ramsay is not far-fetched at all. Those are all hard men, and the loss of family members should be very common every winter.

The thing is, which the wars cooling down at the end of ASoS there would have been a great opportunity to warn Westeros about the threat the Others pose. George earlier on found great ways how/why people ignore that threat but he really dropped the ball in AFfC and ADwD. Even if people in the end decide not to listen - they should have heard the stories coming from the Wall only to dismiss them as superstition, fairy-tales, lies, etc. But nobody hears any of those stories. And that simply is a plot hole.

While I do believe there are plot holes in the book I just don't think this is one of them. Like I said before your argument that Jon should've tried to inform or at least considered telling the Boltons & others once the war was over is valid. I personally don't believe it would've changed anything but I get the argument. But calling it a plot hole is an exaggeration. This series is full of bad decisions and/or unexplored options. Is every single one of them a plot hole? Hell half of the threads on this forum are "why didn't [character]do this [plan A, B, or C]" 

 

[black_hart]

No one mentioned our self-satisfied Tyrion Lannister making Thorne wait until the hand was not moving anymore... I blame Tyrion. He was so proud, how he played it. There was your chance to convince people of import of the impending apocalypse sacrificed for petty political games.

There is no plot hole, who is Jon supposed to send? Wildlings will be killed not listened to and if sent to the Dreadfort in particularly gruesome ways. (Good luck on keeping the free folk as allies after doing that.) The Watch is under strength as is sending out people telling people fairytales will help nothing. They did not help against a less fancy threat, why now? He did send two survivors to Oldtown, however, the only place of learning in Westeros, where people willing to listen may still reside.

[Targaryen Restoration]

On 12/1/2016 at 10:14 PM, Jadakiss said:

Yes stannis seems to be the only one who knows about the real threat and cares about the real threat. He makes comments that humans are only making themselves weaker for when the real fight comes. Roose is a dick, but he is not stupid in big matters. He is still alive in a powerful position for a reason.

Yes I know ravens were sent out everywhere. But why has there not been anyone who went and talked to Roose and provided the same evidence they showed to other people about the wights? Him and stannis wouldnt be dumb enough to fight each other first before the living vs dead battle.

Has there been any section where someone goes and tries to persuade roose? or even explain the situation? if so I cant find it

That's a serious mistake by Jon.  I suspect Jon resents the Boltons and is allowing his personal feelings to influence his decisions.  Roose is a dick but if given proof of the white walker threat, he would not hesitate to defend the North, which is now his to protect.  I put the blame on Jon for this. 

[bent branch]

4 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

I think a much bigger plot hole is that we never see Robb receive a message from Mormont, with Jon's signature also on it. Once Mormont knows wights are real, wouldn't Winterfell be the first place you'd write to? And if Robb is in the Riverlands, Riverrun? But we never see Robb, Cat, Edmure, Bran etc. with any kind of letter outlining the threat. I mean, it could have been disbelieved or ignored (even if Jon swore it was true) but that it didn't happen at all bothers me.

The reason we don't hear about the response of Robb is based on the POV system. In order for us to know Robb's response we would have to have our POV near Robb hear Robb's response to it. Since Catelyn never hears anything about the request from the NW, we can assume that Robb thought the issue so minor that he dismissed it out of hand. And except for Stannis, that was pretty much everyone's response to the missives.

[bent branch]

2 hours ago, black_hart said:

No one mentioned our self-satisfied Tyrion Lannister making Thorne wait until the hand was not moving anymore... I blame Tyrion. He was so proud, how he played it. There was your chance to convince people of import of the impending apocalypse sacrificed for petty political games.

There is no plot hole, who is Jon supposed to send? Wildlings will be killed not listened to and if sent to the Dreadfort in particularly gruesome ways. (Good luck on keeping the free folk as allies after doing that.) The Watch is under strength as is sending out people telling people fairytales will help nothing. They did not help against a less fancy threat, why now? He did send two survivors to Oldtown, however, the only place of learning in Westeros, where people willing to listen may still reside.

I agree there is no plot hole. In fact, the NW requesting aid and being ignored or rejected is the story. The problem is that people don't believe what they are hearing, not that the NW isn't trying to warn people.

[Lord Varys]

It certainly doesn't make any sense that Jon would not write a letter in his own hand to send it to Winterfell to Luwin and Bran, and another version to Robb directly (which he would address to Riverrun, or send to Winterfell with the request to send it to whatever castle Robb might stay later on).

We know from Bran's POV that such a letter never reached Winterfell, nor was such a letter forwarded to Robb. And any letter forwarded to Robb would have reached Catelyn at Riverrun not Robb in the field. Yet Catelyn also never received such a letter.

This is certainly George either not thinking things through or George making his character intentionally too stupid to not come up with a simple and obvious solution anybody in their situation would have come up with.

George apparently tries to divert our attention from that fact with the whole Alliser Thorne envoy job but that's simply not enough. Mormont and his officers annoyed Tyrion continuously with their pleas for help yet they never thought about using Jon's connection to Winterfell to spread the tale about the wights? That just doesn't make any sense.

5 hours ago, Maxxine said:

While I do believe there are plot holes in the book I just don't think this is one of them. Like I said before your argument that Jon should've tried to inform or at least considered telling the Boltons & others once the war was over is valid. I personally don't believe it would've changed anything but I get the argument. But calling it a plot hole is an exaggeration. This series is full of bad decisions and/or unexplored options. Is every single one of them a plot hole? Hell half of the threads on this forum are "why didn't [character]do this [plan A, B, or C]" 

The difference there is that many characters make realistic mistakes based on bad/insufficient information, fear, or other reasons. But this is just not one of them. This is people being dumb for no good reason.