Noble Lothar Frey

Craster is a Stark

125 posts in this topic

There is something special about Craster's bloodline because the Others accepted his boys.  Many wildlings would gladly make that sacrifice to satisfy the Others and keep them away and yet the Others do not accept their sacrifice.  There would be no need for the wildlings to flee if they can keep the Others happy with the gift of an occasional baby boy.  So the baby's bloodline is clearly important.  The Others do not want just any male baby.

The Night's King was a Stark.  The female Other sought him out.  Why him in particular?  Because of his bloodline.  If the first white walkers were created from Stark stock, it would help explain why.  Only a Stark can be converted to a white walker.  The blood has to be compatible. 

 

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:agree:

 

 

Interesting theory.  It was thoroughly debated at the Tower of the Hand forums and Itamar Harrel of GOT Academy made mention of the idea in one of their programs.  I agree. 

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Craster is more likely a Hoare. (Black blood references usually point to House Hoare) Stark blood isn't special: every Northern house has some. But Hoare blood? That's the good stuff.

Remember that Harren the Black's brother was Lord Commander of the Night's Watch? I really don't think GRRM threw that in for no reason.

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14 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

Stark blood isn't special

5 Out of our 14 PoVs have Starks blood. Sure Starks’ blood isn’t special.

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hmm, I was expecting this theory to have a little more about it than just an assertion, based on nothing in particular. 

Shame as I was looking forward to reading some thoughtful analysis. 

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2 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

Craster is more likely a Hoare. (Black blood references usually point to House Hoare) Stark blood isn't special: every Northern house has some. But Hoare blood? That's the good stuff.

Remember that Harren the Black's brother was Lord Commander of the Night's Watch? I really don't think GRRM threw that in for no reason.

Black blood is probably Nights watch . 

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11 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

How do you know that the Night's King was a Stark?

We don't. Old Nan tells Bran that he was a Stark, and its plausible, but at this point we don't know for certain.

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21 hours ago, Lame Lothar Frey said:

There is something special about Craster's bloodline because the Others accepted his boys.  Many wildlings would gladly make that sacrifice to satisfy the Others and keep them away and yet the Others do not accept their sacrifice.  There would be no need for the wildlings to flee if they can keep the Others happy with the gift of an occasional baby boy.  So the baby's bloodline is clearly important.  The Others do not want just any male baby.

The Night's King was a Stark.  The female Other sought him out.  Why him in particular?  Because of his bloodline.  If the first white walkers were created from Stark stock, it would help explain why.  Only a Stark can be converted to a white walker.  The blood has to be compatible. 

 

The Starks are the "ice" side of the equation and while it may appear for the moment that they will side with man, it could go the other way.  I suspect they have an ancient relationship with the white walkers in much the same way that the Targaryens have bonds with their dragons.  Just as the Targaryens used dragons to further their political ambitions, it would be a fitting parallel if the Starks somehow made a deal with the Others to win dominance over the north.  Anyway back to your theory.  Yeah, if the original white walkers were made from Stark males it is reasonable to assume that only compatible stock can be "turned" to an Other.  And only males.  Since there are no shortages of Wildlings stock available why would Craster's baby boys have significant value.  Answer, because Craster and the Starks share the same bloodline.  Craster is a Stark. 

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This was explored in brief in this thread:

In brief:

"Without a lot to go on other than my twitching wordplay antenna, I have suspected that Craster comes from a splintered-off branch of the Stark family. I don't think GRRM would have gone to so much trouble to explain the reasons behind the Karstarks unless it had a more important application. And that application could be to call attention to the fact that the name Craster shares a lot of the same letters and sounds as Stark and Karstark and Greystark. So I agree with the speculation that Craster is deliberately maintaining a pure bloodline for the sacrifices or for some other reason. If you're right about the pledge to sacrifice the souls of Stark kings, maybe Craster and his father and grandfathers before him have been trying to shore up the agreement for those three hundred years since Torrhen bent the knee. (And Gilly's baby will have to grow up and take up the family business as the only warm-blooded male heir.)

"There is also a throne connection for Craster - GRRM makes a point of calling attention to the one chair in Craster's keep. Everyone else sits on benches or the floor."

And this, from further down in that same thread:

The other wordplay that seems significant comes in a Jon POV where we meet a northern lord who is known as The Norrey, instead of Lord Norrey, like all the other lords. Could this be "norrth eye"? Or, at least, some kind of allusion to Torrhen Stark. (If "Torrhen Stark" is an anagram, could it be "north" + "Kraster"? As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I think Craster is a splinter line from House Stark.)

Edited by Seams

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22 hours ago, Lame Lothar Frey said:

There is something special about Craster's bloodline because the Others accepted his boys.  Many wildlings would gladly make that sacrifice to satisfy the Others and keep them away and yet the Others do not accept their sacrifice. 

 

do we know for a fact that other wildling children aren't accepted? I can't imagine the others are populating purely from Craster. The Stark blood is definitely special though.

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21 minutes ago, Seams said:

"Without a lot to go on other than my twitching wordplay antenna, I have suspected that Craster comes from a splintered-off branch of the Stark family. I don't think GRRM would have gone to so much trouble to explain the reasons behind the Karstarks unless it had a more important application. And that application could be to call attention to the fact that the name Craster shares a lot of the same letters and sounds as Stark and Karstark and Greystark.

The name Stark is from the Old Tongue of the First Men. Craster's name probably is, too, given he is of the Free Folk. He speaks the Andal tongue, as most Free Folk near the Wall seem to do, implying that the people of the North have been trading and having children with Wildings for centuries.

Craster would almost certainly have Stark blood - but simply by virtue of that fact that House Stark has ruled for thousands of years. But that's just an application of logic, I don't think there's any narrative significance to this.

They're not special to the Others. The behaviour of the Others does not suggest that they are targeting Craster specifically, they just seem to enjoy the bargain of getting more children in exchange for leaving him be.

It's true that other Free Folk don't do this as far as we know, But other than Hardholme, they don't have permanent settlements which would require them to. Craster's sacrifices were his means of defending himself when it was just him to hold the line.

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41 minutes ago, theblackdragonI said:

do we know for a fact that other wildling children aren't accepted? I can't imagine the others are populating purely from Craster. The Stark blood is definitely special though.

I remember a quote from GRRM, though I'm not one of the people who looks all this stuff up, that Craster was not in fact the only person sacrificing to the others.

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I will just point out as is my usual that we do not know that the babies are turned into WW's, and that given everything in the books and books alone, there is more evidence they are sacrifices for the ability to raise the dead.  Only death can pay for life.

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35 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I will just point out as is my usual that we do not know that the babies are turned into WW's, and that given everything in the books and books alone, there is more evidence they are sacrifices for the ability to raise the dead.  Only death can pay for life.

Whatever happens to them, I assume that they do not survive the process.

I'm pretty sure that the Others are transformed humans, rather than merely reanimated corpses. Just because the wights also exist and seem to be a separate entity.

But you're right, there's nothing to say that this is anything more than speculation; nothing in the books proves this.

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1 hour ago, Yukle said:

Whatever happens to them, I assume that they do not survive the process.

I'm pretty sure that the Others are transformed humans, rather than merely reanimated corpses. Just because the wights also exist and seem to be a separate entity.

But you're right, there's nothing to say that this is anything more than speculation; nothing in the books proves this.

I don't think the WW's are re-animated corpses, whatever they are, it is my personal opinion that the babies are sacrificed by the WW's for the ability to raise the wights.  I believe this because of the often repeated phrase only death can pay for life, and because of what Mirri Maz Dur seems to do with Drago.  She sacrifices Danys baby and raises a catatonic Drago, as we learn from Bran and Varamyr Six Skins, a catatonic person is easily skinchanged and controlled.  We see that the blue light of the wights eyes go's out before they stop moving when burned, I think the light is a sign of the control of the WW's are exercising over them.

There is a single piece of evidence from the books to suggest the babies are turned into WW's, and that is from one of Crastors daughter wives who says to Sam "the sons are coming".  However since she would not have any reason/ability to know this I personally discredit it and go for what we saw MMD do.

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7 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I don't think the WW's are re-animated corpses, whatever they are, it is my personal opinion that the babies are sacrificed by the WW's for the ability to raise the wights.

That's entirely possible. I agree that there's not anything supporting the idea that the Others are former humans. I just think that the wights and the Others are different beings, one being corpses the other being transformed humans. They seem to be kind of malevolent humans, and the story of the Night's King makes me think they're kind of distorted humans somehow, with human heritage.

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4 minutes ago, Yukle said:

That's entirely possible. I agree that there's not anything supporting the idea that the Others are former humans. I just think that the wights and the Others are different beings, one being corpses the other being transformed humans. They seem to be kind of malevolent humans, and the story of the Night's King makes me think they're kind of distorted humans somehow, with human heritage.

I agree at least with respect to the original(s), and would only add that i think the cotf created it/them.  Now I am not so sure if they can replicate somehow or not.

Edited by aryagonnakill#2

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Just now, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I agree, and would only add that i think the cotf created them.

Maybe?

I think they're connected to the magic of the Old Gods somehow. I can envisage there being a distant Stark ancestor who betrayed the Night's Watch and tried to use the magic of the Old Gods for personal gain or something, becoming the first of the Others.

If I had to bet, I'd say that it was a human who made the first white walker but I certainly wouldn't bet my own money nor with any confidence. :P 

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