Noble Lothar Frey

Craster is a Stark

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Blood (magic?) is significant in the duel too, as it's only when the other has drawn blood from Royce that it can "parry lazily" and the first contact between the swords after the blood is drawn shatters the steel. 

Edited by SiSt

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3 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I read the books with a mind to find the clues. They are all there in the prologue with regards to how Waymar looks and behaves, which is very commanding as if he is the actual Lord Commander, with his Sable cloak and Lordly garb and jewel hilted sword. 

Then he is set upon by a band of Others who are wary of him. One Other is set with the task of trying out this Commander (he is the commander of the ranging) and testing his ability and how his fancy sword behaves in battle. 

Note how the Other eyes his sword, paying a lot of attention to it as Waymar has it raised high.

This is when the Others reinforcements make their presence loud and clear and surround Waymar. They watch the duel but it is only when the sword shatters that the other Others move into finish him as though some signal had been given. 

It had, this Lordly commanding looking lad was just some foolish type with normal castle forged steel. Not the threat he at first seemed.

But by the way the other Others made their presence felt when Waymar had his sword raised you can be sure it was to act quickly if Waymars first blow melted clean through the first Other. The sword was a massive deal for them.

You can say as much as you like how silly it may have seemed to the Others that what appears to be the LC of the NW came bounding North with no army etc etc but it matters little. 

The prologue tells this story:

A Commander of the NW who's garb is mentioned so many times to single him out as a Lordly Commander type, and who has a fancy sword on him, appeared North with two men. 

The Others shadowed them, wary of the Commander and his sword. Then they trick him and come upon him to put his ability and blade to the test, which they clearly are very very interested in.

They expose him as nothing even close to the threat he appeared to be and mock him while finishing him off.

 

Or any nobleman for that matter.

Or maybe they were preparing to help their friend if he needed it.  Clearly he didn't.

You're free to interpret things the way that seems most reasonable to you but that works for all of us.  I'm not sure how much we can be sure of in the theory that the Others expected to find the Lord Commander wandering around the Haunted Forest on his own at night.

And actually I think it does matter.  Why would they expect this guy on his own to be the LC?  The Wall was built and the NW formed for a reason and the LC wandering around the Haunted Forest on his own miles from the Wall needs a bit of explanation.

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On 09/12/2016 at 6:08 PM, the trees have eyes said:

Or any nobleman for that matter.

Em, nope. What sense does that make. The man is head to toe all in black right up to his thick black Lordly Sable cloak. His Lordly Garb is practically screamed at us by GRRM so no, he doesn't look like just any nobleman. He looks like a commander of the Nights watch, which he is. 

But if you are the Others, then you could easily think that he is possibly the actual Lord Commander of the NW.

On 09/12/2016 at 6:08 PM, the trees have eyes said:

Or maybe they were preparing to help their friend if he needed it.  Clearly he didn't.

Which is pretty much what I said is it not. They make their presence known to Waymar and us when the sword is lifted high. This, along with how the first Other eyed the sword, is there to show us that the sword is treated with great importance and the back up Others are ready to pounce if the blade should prove to be what they fear it is. 

On 09/12/2016 at 6:08 PM, the trees have eyes said:

You're free to interpret things the way that seems most reasonable to you but that works for all of us.  I'm not sure how much we can be sure of in the theory that the Others expected to find the Lord Commander wandering around the Haunted Forest on his own at night.

And actually I think it does matter.  Why would they expect this guy on his own to be the LC?  The Wall was built and the NW formed for a reason and the LC wandering around the Haunted Forest on his own miles from the Wall needs a bit of explanation.

Why of course I am free to interpret these things how I like. And I think these are fairly obvious things to direct my interpretations in the way they have went.

If the Others thought this guy was a very high ranking commander of the NW or the actual LC himself maybe they did feel it needed explained, and were curious as to why he would be all the way with such small numbers, which is why they moved on him, to see what he was up to and if his blade really was as scary as they feared it was.

And they got their explanation, they know now that it was no blade they needed to fear and the guy maybe wasn't the LC, maybe he was what he appeared to be when they had finished him off. Some Lordly looking boy with regular steel.

They got their explanation basically, but they couldn't dick around for too long pondering what a commander/LC was doing ranging into the North even if it may have seemed a little strange. They had to see to the perceived threat, and they did, in brutal fashion.

Edited by Macgregor of the North

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@the trees have eyes I know you don't agree with me and it's cool, we all interpret the books differently. It's one of the most interesting things about the series. I have my thoughts and you have yours.

I believe we have been given clues here though. And obvious ones.

Waymar Royces Black Sable Cloak is mentioned no fewer than six times in the Prologue. 

Then in the next book we get this little clue, or what i believe is a clue.

ACOK JON II:

"Thoren Smallwood looked more a lord than Mormont did, clad in Ser Jaremy Rykker's gleaming black mail and embossed breastplate. His heavy cloak was richly trimmed with sable, and clasped with the crossed hammers of the Rykkers, wrought in silver. Ser Jaremy's cloak, once . . . but the wight had claimed Ser Jaremy, and the Night's Watch wasted nothing."

I think there was massive importance placed on Waymar Royces appearance in the Prologue. The Sable Cloak being a key trigger word to grab our attention.

And Lo and behold. A Sable Cloak appears again with actual text saying that the wearer actually looked more of a Lord than the actual Lord Commander did. That's another stand out moment for me right there, as if to say hey look at this text readers, I'm telling you something here.

I saw it, and I'm fairly sure I understand what it meant. But hey, I could be wrong, but if my nose for detail sends me sniffing in a certain direction, I choose to follow it.

And yes, this is a round about way of saying that of course the Others could have shadowed Waymar and his other two companions thinking he was possibly the Lord Commander of the Nights Watch whom the Others hate and fear that they have in their possession, a blade of Dragonsteel that their kind could not stand against somewhere between 5000 and 8000 years ago.

I am actually working on a theory that the Others have their own version of prophecies, or at least tales of legend. 

It looks at the angle of the slender, graceful grey eyed description of Waymar also, which is obviously like Jon. Who funnily enough actually became the Lord Commander didn't he. This was a detail I always thought we were supposed to notice for some reason. 

I think there is something there to be explored further that possibly the Others know of or had word of a young, slender, graceful, grey-eyed Lord Commander of the Nights Watch who will wield a blade of "Dragonsteel". And they possibly thought they had happened upon him that night in the haunted forest. 

I may try to get this theory fleshed out this year if I get the time. It's hard to piece my thoughts together because the Others obviously had malicious intent in the Prologue so IF, they were looking for a Stark Commander or whatever was their goal to kill him?.

I must admit I always hold myself back at this juncture with the theory. 

I am nearly 100% certain the Others thought they had found the LC, but am I as sure they were looking for a slender grey eyed graceful Stark. Nope.

 

Edited by Macgregor of the North

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7 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Em, nope. What sense does that make. The man is head to toe all in black right up to his thick black Lordly Sable cloak. His Lordly Garb is practically screamed at us by GRRM so no, he doesn't look like just any nobleman. He looks like a commander of the Nights watch, which he is. 

But if you are the Others, then you could easily think that he is possibly the actual Lord Commander of the NW.

Which is pretty much what I said is it not. They make their presence known to Waymar and us when the sword is lifted high. This, along with how the first Other eyed the sword, is there to show us that the sword is treated with great importance and the back up Others are ready to pounce if the blade should prove to be what they fear it is. 

Why of course I am free to interpret these things how I like. And I think these are fairly obvious things to direct my interpretations in the way they have went.

If the Others thought this guy was a very high ranking commander of the NW or the actual LC himself maybe they did feel it needed explained, and were curious as to why he would be all the way with such small numbers, which is why they moved on him, to see what he was up to and if his blade really was as scary as they feared it was.

And they got their explanation, they know now that it was no blade they needed to fear and the guy maybe wasn't the LC, maybe he was what he appeared to be when they had finished him off. Some Lordly looking boy with regular steel.

They got their explanation basically, but they couldn't dick around for too long pondering what a commander/LC was doing ranging into the North even if it may have seemed a little strange. They had to see to the perceived threat, and they did, in brutal fashion.

Plenty of sense.  Plenty of noblemen have joined the NW over the last 10,000 years including quite a few Starks.  Waymar Royce is no different to any of them.  Remember all the gear Sam turned up at Castle Black with?  Sam had to hand it over as it wasn't black but most noblemen are better prepared and get to keep their fancy gear.  Like Waymar.  Nothing special to see here.  Let's move on.

You might then wonder why this dude is blundering around in the Haunted Forest alone in the middle of the night.  It doesn't seem to be what Lord Commanders typically do unless you have some examples to share?

Yeah, it's all interpretation isn't it.  You're reading a lot into this scene as "obvious" which isn't really supported by anything, it's just a hunch on your part.  No harm in that ofc but it's just a hunch and nothing more.

There's no "perceived threat" though.  The Others are busy killing wildlings and a ranging blunders across the wildling corpses.  With their camouflage the Others are invisible to the NW so they surround Royce and when he draws his blade and issues a challenge (classic case of a cornered animal giving an agressive display to try and warn off predators) , it's answered.  Maybe they have their own dueling code, maybe the alpha male Other had the right/obligation to dispatch the prey/enemy, maybe he was a young Other earning his spurs in first single combat, maybe they did indeed want to test his blade on the memory of Dawn/Valyrian steel, maybe they were being cautious in case he had obsidian, maybe they have experience of humans being dangerous opponents for those reasons, maybe they figured he must be a great warrior to be taking such apparently suicidal risks (rather than an inexperienced and arrogant youth).

Whatever, the one thing that isn't obvious is that they figure thus guy, in this time and place, is the Lord Commander of the NW / new Last Hero carrying Dawn / Azor Ahai come again marching to defeat them and they just happened to luck out and find him all on his own.

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6 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@the trees have eyes I know you don't agree with me and it's cool, we all interpret the books differently. It's one of the most interesting things about the series. I have my thoughts and you have yours.

I believe we have been given clues here though. And obvious ones.

Waymar Royces Black Sable Cloak is mentioned no fewer than six times in the Prologue. 

Then in the next book we get this little clue, or what i believe is a clue.

ACOK JON II:

"Thoren Smallwood looked more a lord than Mormont did, clad in Ser Jaremy Rykker's gleaming black mail and embossed breastplate. His heavy cloak was richly trimmed with sable, and clasped with the crossed hammers of the Rykkers, wrought in silver. Ser Jaremy's cloak, once . . . but the wight had claimed Ser Jaremy, and the Night's Watch wasted nothing."

I think there was massive importance placed on Waymar Royces appearance in the Prologue. The Sable Cloak being a key trigger word to grab our attention.

And Lo and behold. A Sable Cloak appears again with actual text saying that the wearer actually looked more of a Lord than the actual Lord Commander did. That's another stand out moment for me right there, as if to say hey look at this text readers, I'm telling you something here.

I saw it, and I'm fairly sure I understand what it meant. But hey, I could be wrong, but if my nose for detail sends me sniffing in a certain direction, I choose to follow it.

And yes, this is a round about way of saying that of course the Others could have shadowed Waymar and his other two companions thinking he was possibly the Lord Commander of the Nights Watch whom the Others hate and fear that they have in their possession, a blade of Dragonsteel that their kind could not stand against somewhere between 5000 and 8000 years ago.

I am actually working on a theory that the Others have their own version of prophecies, or at least tales of legend. 

It looks at the angle of the slender, graceful grey eyed description of Waymar also, which is obviously like Jon. Who funnily enough actually became the Lord Commander didn't he. This was a detail I always thought we were supposed to notice for some reason. 

I think there is something there to be explored further that possibly the Others know of or had word of a young, slender, graceful, grey-eyed Lord Commander of the Nights Watch who will wield a blade of "Dragonsteel". And they possibly thought they had happened upon him that night in the haunted forest. 

I may try to get this theory fleshed out this year if I get the time. It's hard to piece my thoughts together because the Others obviously had malicious intent in the Prologue so IF, they were looking for a Stark Commander or whatever was their goal to kill him?.

I must admit I always hold myself back at this juncture with the theory. 

I am nearly 100% certain the Others thought they had found the LC, but am I as sure they were looking for a slender grey eyed graceful Stark. Nope.

 

So Smallwood and Rykker are richly dressed as well.  It just goes to show there is nothing unique about Waymar Royce's garb at all.  Sable cloaks are simply a sign of status and wealth not a badge of office and a lot more common than you make out.

It's still just a hunch, mate.  You can work on it as much as you want but you are close to going from building on the text to creating something that appeals to you but isn't there: Others' prophecies? :dunno:

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Reading the prologue, I see the blood being much more significant than either the clothing or the sword. Since the blood is what triggers both the shattering of the blade and the slaughter. 

The sword should have been revealed as non-vs at the first clash of steel (depending on how magic it is against others, but considering the effect of obsidian it better be significant). 

Which begs the question, what's with the blood? Normal blood magic? Are they looking for a resurrected crow LC ala coldhands, who would not bleed red, but congealed black? Like Crasters "black blood"? 

Whether they are actually looking for anyone at all is also relevant since the text is completely inadequate for a conclusion. 

Edited by SiSt

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@the trees have eyes

This from you right here shows you obviously have not even read the Prologue properly. This is 100% false.

Quote

The Others are busy killing wildlings and a ranging blunders across the wildling corpses. 

I'm sorry but this is rubbish lol. 

Waymar is commanding a ranging after a band of Wildling raiders North then northwest then North again. The Others begin shadowing them at some stage which becomes glaringly obvious by the ninth day as Will and Gared both feel like they are being watched by something cold and implacable and notice the weather change for the worse, anticipating snows and a possible ice storm. 

These are clear cut prods by GRRM to show us the presence of the Others scoping their movements.

Will, the most silent ranger on the watch, had scouted two miles ahead that day and saw what was a trap set by the Others to lure Royce in, which he falls for. He leads them up to the trap. Gared stays back with the horses.

The Wildlings who had all been slain and left lying around, with no blood, have now been moved completely. The trap is successful. 

Will climbs the tree.

Then they make their move on  Royce, the Commander with Lordly garb and stand out splendid looking jewel hilted sword on his person.

How you never saw this strikes me as odd since the book has been out for twenty years but at least now I have my explanation for why you never noticed all the other things I noticed. 

 

Edited by Macgregor of the North

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13 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

So Smallwood and Rykker are richly dressed as well.  It just goes to show there is nothing unique about Waymar Royce's garb at all.  Sable cloaks are simply a sign of status and wealth not a badge of office and a lot more common than you make out.

It's still just a hunch, mate.  You can work on it as much as you want but you are close to going from building on the text to creating something that appeals to you but isn't there: Others' prophecies? :dunno:

After your other post this just makes me chuckle. 

Jaremy Rykker and the fact he's killed in the second trap set by the Others to send in Jafer and Othor shows his importance and how the Others were trying to kill high rankers. 

The fact he also had a Sable Cloak may be a small coincidence, or a cheeky hint by GRRM. Whatever it is, it's clear by now the Others are trying to take out the top brass of the NW. Which is a plus point to my theory of them taking their chance to trap and move on what they thought may have been the LC in the Prologue. 

And are you honestly saying that the Others aren't intelligent enough to have tales of old, stories, even prophecies of their own?. 

You maybe view them as dumb like the Wights do you? 

You are obviously not reading the books like myself and other people are. Good luck with that, but dont presume to brush off details I have seen in the books simply because you haven't. 

Have a re-read. It always helps. ;)

 

 

 

 

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On 03/12/2016 at 10:34 PM, Lame Lothar Frey said:

There is something special about Craster's bloodline because the Others accepted his boys. 

We don't know that. 

Quote

Many wildlings would gladly make that sacrifice to satisfy the Others and keep them away and yet the Others do not accept their sacrifice.  There would be no need for the wildlings to flee if they can keep the Others happy with the gift of an occasional baby boy.  So the baby's bloodline is clearly important.  The Others do not want just any male baby.

We don't know that...

Quote

The Night's King was a Stark.  The female Other sought him out.  Why him in particular?  Because of his bloodline.  If the first white walkers were created from Stark stock, it would help explain why.  Only a Stark can be converted to a white walker.  The blood has to be compatible. 

 

And we don't know that either. The Night's King may have been a Stark. And then again, maybe not. Sure, Old Nan tells Bran he was. But Bran likes the scary stories, and Old Nan, accomplished storyteller that she is, might be just obliging and trying to tell him the scariest story she can, even if she has to tweak with a few details. Bottom line is, we don't know yet.

Furthermore, I find it very unlikely because if Craster was related to the Starks, people would know. 

Edited by kissdbyfire

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4 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@the trees have eyes

This from you right here shows you obviously have not even read the Prologue properly. This is 100% false.

I'm sorry but this is rubbish lol. 

Waymar is commanding a ranging after a band of Wildling raiders North then northwest then North again. The Others begin shadowing them at some stage which becomes glaringly obvious by the ninth day as Will and Gared both feel like they are being watched by something cold and implacable and notice the weather change for the worse, anticipating snows and a possible ice storm. 

These are clear cut prods by GRRM to show us the presence of the Others scoping their movements.

Will, the most silent ranger on the watch, had scouted two miles ahead that day and saw what was a trap set by the Others to lure Royce in, which he falls for. He leads them up to the trap. Gared stays back with the horses.

The Wildlings who had all been slain and left lying around, with no blood, have now been moved completely. The trap is successful. 

Will climbs the tree.

Then they make their move on  Royce, the Commander with Lordly garb and stand out splendid looking jewel hilted sword on his person.

How you never saw this strikes me as odd since the book has been out for twenty years but at least now I have my explanation for why you never noticed all the other things I noticed

 

Actually I've read the prologue a numer of times.  I always try to be civil and open-minded on the forums but after all these years I still get surprised by the guys who rock up with their pet theories and proceed to present their particular and usually obscure, unfounded and likely incorrect interpretation as "obvious".  Like you're doing.  Big deal really.

Why do the Others need to follow the rangers for days, dude?  Why don't they ambush them at any time they like?   Anything particularly special about the place they ambush them?  Nope, thought not.

Like I said, feel free to believe what you want to believe but be prepared, like most other "nearly 100% certain" theory-crafters, to find out you are barking up a completely different tree to GRRM!

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As to a possible Stark connection I'll offer this happy thought B)

Karstark

Krastar[k]

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Again, the Night's King is just a myth according to George and he has nothing to do with the Great Other, that is an old nan's tale. I am not denying the existance of the others, as they are there, but when the writer says: The Night's King is as dead as Bran the Builder and most likely a myth, I started to stop believing the Night's King will be in the books.

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18 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Ok, good for you chuckle boy.  Yes, I do think the Others are smart enough to know that noblemen join the NW and wear expensive clothes. I also think they are smart enough to know this is fairly common and not particularly remarkable and to be smart enough to know the LC does not go riding around the Haunted Forest for days with only two men! :blink:

Yes, they are trying to take out the top brass aren't they?  Benjen goes missing on his ranging and then they try to take out Mormont.  You'll note they can take rangers north of the Wall but they have to find a way to send wights south of the Wall to get at the LC.  It's almost like they knew where to find him..... Wow, what a thought.....the LC is at Castle Black.  Mind. Blown. Your. Theory. crashing. and. burning.

It's called interpretation.  Maybe you should lose the arrogance a bit and be a bit more thoughtful, hmm?

Haha my theory that the Others thought they may have happened upon the Lord Commander/leader of their old foes still has plenty legs because the Jafer and Othor mission is way after the Prologue where they exposed young Waymar to be what he appeared to be after they left him mutilated on the floor, a mere boy with castle forged steel. No leader with the famed feared blade they remember so well.

But that by no way means that when they shadowed Waymar, towering over the other two rangers with his war horse, Lordly thick black Sable Cloak and fancy jewel hilted sword which they took major caution with, they may have indeed thought they had happened across the leader/Lord Commander of their old foes the Nights Watch. 

You are the one who should drop your know it all arrogant approach and wake up to the details in the books.

I am STILL waiting for you to address why you think that the Others were just milling about killing Wildlings and Waymar and co. Just blundered upon their scene when you have read the Prologue numerous times haha.

Do you even deny they set the trap? 

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19 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

There's no "perceived threat" though.  The Others are busy killing wildlings and a ranging blunders across the wildling corpses.

Lets return to this. I personally wanna get a grasp on your view on whats going in the prologue because if im seriously honest, if this is your take on the prologue then i can totally see why you cant see the details i have pointed out. For this discussion to flow correct i need to know where your head is at.

You honestly think that the Others that killed Waymar were just out killing Wildlings when Waymar Will and Gared blundered upon the dead Wildlings?

Are you completely and utterly disregarding how Will and Gared had felt watched by "something cold and implacable that loved them not" the whole ninth day? And how Gared and Will had felt a change in the weather that day which was getting worse. So bad that Gared even mentions snow and an ice storm may come? You do know what we associate with the cold coming quite alot in this story do you?

And since you seem to think that they just blundered upon the corpses are you forgetting that Will scouted ahead two miles earlier that day and found the bodies, with their weapons lying around but no blood? A clear trap. Im not sure if you even think the Others set the trap if im honest, can you clarify if you do or not?.

 

 

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@Macgregor of the North and @the trees have eyes : Please stop. You are obviously not going to persuade each other, and you have hijacked a viable thread with your unpleasant exchange.

The prologue scene was a tangent to the actual topic of this thread, anyway.

While you leave this thread behind and turn your attention to compiling genuine quotes from the books to support your theories, you might gain some greater insights if you treat each prologue chapter as an allegory. For instance, @ravenous reader and @evita mgfs made a breakthrough when they sorted out that Will, Gared and Waymar represent William Shakespeare, Edgar Allan Poe and George R. R. Martin. (Their original analysis was on the Bran's Growing Powers re-read thread.) If you need further evidence, note that a "sable" is a specific species within the family of creatures called martens. (This is a point for another thread someday, but I believe the prologues are allegories about what to expect from the series as a whole, and the first prologue is one of the richest veins we have only begun to mine. The shattering of Ser Waymar's sword for instance, sounds like the breaking of ice. An ice sword? The first interpretation is that this foreshadows the melting of the Stark family heirloom and creation of smaller swords. Another layer is that this represents the act of writing seven books, or of making a living as a writer: there is a pun on swords and words throughout the series, so a shattered sword might be GRRM poking fun at himself. When you acknowledge the tie between words and swords, you might then reexamine the Royce family armor, covered with runes that almost no one can read, according to Sam. Was there also a Royce sword covered with words?)

There was a good discussion on another thread where, I thought, a good case was made that the Others mistook Ser Waymar for Jon Snow and/or a figure from a possible prophecy who might have been foreseen as a high-born man dressed in black. Your theory might be just as valid or even stronger, once you put together the passages from the books to back it up, but I think you have to allow for differences in interpretation, especially when you are aware that another strong interpretation has already been put forward. The texts are layered, as we all know. Sorting out those layers is the reason we come to this forum for respectful discussion. Until the last book is published, there will be some educated guess work involved and each person's theory will have to rest on the evidence they present.

Getting back to the OP which focuses us on the topic of Craster as a Stark, I believe the evidence points in that direction. I would value discussion of whether there is a "beyond the Wall" and "below the Wall" balance that has to be maintained: when Jon is brought before Mormont after his attempted desertion at the end of AGoT, Mormont says he needs Jon's blood and his wolf to go beyond the Wall. The wording of this still strikes me as a little odd in its specificity.

But the real "balance" incident that involves Craster is the chapter when Sam Tarly and Gilly, with her Craster-sired baby, cross under the Night Fort and Sam then takes Bran through the same magical passage in the other direction, beyond the Wall, based on instructions he has been given by Cold Hands. Essentially, I believe, we are getting Craster's male "heir" swapped for Bran. Blood for blood?

The fact that the exchange takes place at the Night Fort could also be relevant if we think Craster is a symbolic Night's King.

1 hour ago, Shadow of Asshai said:

Again, the Night's King is just a myth according to George and he has nothing to do with the Great Other, that is an old nan's tale. I am not denying the existance of the others, as they are there, but when the writer says: The Night's King is as dead as Bran the Builder and most likely a myth, I started to stop believing the Night's King will be in the books.

I suspect this is one of GRRM's delightful tricks. There is extensive discussion in this forum of Bran the Builder being reincarnated. There is also extensive discussion of how the current generation of characters in the books are reenacting the so-called myths. So far, I find that nothing is wasted in these books. Even if Craster is not a literal reenactment of the Night's King, there may be a symbolic connection. (And that means that Gilly is going to turn out to be a heck of a bad-ass woman at some point in the next books.)

There are other details in Craster's arc - he is the only person in his compound who sits in a chair, for instance, which seems like a pretty strong throne symbol. Craster accepts an axe from Mormont at a "feast." When Asha Greyjoy accepts an axe at a different feast, she tells Theon it is her husband and that the dirk (knife) she pulls out of her shirt is her "suckling babe." Craster is killed by a guy named Dirk. Just as it is significant that a Dothraki warrior cuts off Jaime's hand, I think Craster's death by a symbolic Iron Born character foreshadows something significant in the future of Greyjoy-on-Stark violence. (It could also tell us something about the dangerous future for the suckling babe that Gilly carries out of Craster's Keep.)

Puzzling out Craster's relationship to the Starks may help us to make better predictions about other characters whose arcs share elements with Craster's story.

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7 minutes ago, Seams said:

You are obviously not going to persuade each other

Me and the trees have eyes are in this now and we likely wont stop anytime soon. This is merely a debate and not one that anybody need be too concerned about Seams. If the OP wants us to stop discussing fair enough but i dont think we are doing anybody any harm here.

Just two posters trying to get there point across, and ill get mines across. The quotes will come, i have plenty at the ready, first i need to see the trees have eyes answer the questions i posed to gauge where their head is at in regards to what they think is going in the Prologue.

Seriously though, dont mind us.

 

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@Seams

What you mention here below:

Quote

There was a good discussion on another threadwhere, I thought, a good case was made that the Others mistook Ser Waymar for Jon Snow and/or a figure from a possible prophecy who might have been foreseen as a high-born man dressed in black.

I was part of that thread for quite a while, sweetsunray got a little more than miffed when I poked some holes in her General theory so then continued discussions with the high praisers who were reluctant to point any discrepancies for discussion.

As to the theory you mentioned, I have spoken with sweetsunray about it before, it is originally from a Reddit theory a while back which centres around the idea that Craster told the Others that a Stark lordling had been by his keep and so they then proceeded to follow who they thought was this prophesied Stark prince who they were looking for and killed him.

If we think about this though? Can anybody envision a scenario where Craster can actually "talk" to the Others, who speak a language that sounds like the cracking of ice, and also, Craster automatically calls Jon out on exactly what he looks like, a Stark. He would do the same with Waymar wouldn't he. 

He would ask the Lordlings name who his wives were paying so much attention to. And also, if Craster was an Others informant, which I highly doubt, then he would instantly enquire after the identity of Waymar to feed his gods the correct info wouldn't he.

My own theory, which has been spawned by the reading of the prologue many times and not built around any other theory, keeps in mind the use of GRRMS description of both Jon and Waymar as graceful, grey eyed and slender. 

This may well hint at the Others having some kind of knowledge of a youth such as this. But! The one thing that requires to be looked at also, if this were to come true, is that if they are indeed looking for a grey eyed, slender, graceful youth (Jon?), then we can not forget that this figure was also the leader/Lord Commander of the Others Old foes. The Nights Watch. 

My theory binds these two ideas together nicely I believe. 

But the trees have eyes can not even see, even though he has read the Prologue numerous times, that the Prologue goes to lengths to point out how Lordly and commanding our slender grey eyed youth is.

Why it's almost like your reading about the leader/Lord Commander in the Prologue isn't it, the way he's dressed and the way he behaves. 

So with all that attention to Waymar and his garb and Sable Cloak in the AGOT Prologue, the very next book we get this description of a Sable Cloak wearer being labelled as "more a lord" than the actual Lord Commander.

"Thoren Smallwood looked more a lord than Mormont did, clad in Ser Jaremy Rykker's gleaming black mail and embossed breastplate. His heavy cloak was richly trimmed with sable, and clasped with the crossed hammers of the Rykkers, wrought in silver."

Almost like GRRMS telling us something isn't it. 

Of course I could be wrong though. 

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On 12/5/2016 at 3:43 PM, Black Crow said:

No harm taken :cheers:

And having googled sin-eater?

What I got off of google was:  A sin-eater is a person who consumes a ritual meal in order to magically take on the sins of a person or household. Traditionally, the food was believed to absorb the sins of a recently deceased person, thus absolving that person's soul.

I also found that there was a movie made titled The Last Sin Eater.

What I don’t comprehend is why or if you are referencing Craster as a sin eater. Or if you are referencing the Others as being sin eaters. Thanks.

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