Separating Art from the Artist? Not today... (2018 - Allen, Spacey, Franco etc. edition)

[Dr. Pepper]

11 minutes ago, Myshkin said:

At the risk of getting piled on, I’m kinda with Winterfell is Burning on the Allen subject. Soon-yi was in her 20’s when she and Allen say they began their relationship. Whatever else we think about the icky-ness that relationship, as far as I can tell there’s no evidence that it started when she was underage. As for the allegations about Allen molesting Dylan Farrow, there are reasons why reasonable people might harbor doubts. That doesn’t make them bad people or victim blamers. When we say that victims of sexual violence should be believed, that doesn’t (or shouldn’t) mean that we should suspend our critical thinking; it means that belief should be the default, as it is for victims of other crimes. Did Woody Allen molest Dylan Farrow? I don’t know. But I don’t think the case is so cut and dry as most of us want to believe it is.

For the record, I am not a fan of Allen’s art.

This isn't a case of believing all victims.  This is a case of a particular victim telling them same story over a period of decades, about an accused who has a relationship with his underaged stepdaughter (I'm sure people are going to come in claiming it was all ok because she wasn't technically his stepdaughter because there was no marriage.  Save it).  Yes, the relationship was revealed when she was somewhere between 18 and 20, but it started before that.  Just because there is no evidence that he didn't molest another of his chidlren doesn't mean it didn't happen.

The ongoing defense of Allen is sickening.  It's like all those years of ongoing defense of Weinstein.  Or Polanski.  Or Spacey.  Or any other fucktard who harasses, assaults, or molests.  

[Myshkin]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

This isn't a case of believing all victims.  (1)This is a case of a particular victim telling them same story over a period of decades, about an accused who has a relationship with his underaged stepdaughter (I'm sure people are going to come in claiming it was all ok because she wasn't technically his stepdaughter because there was no marriage.  Save it).  (2)Yes, the relationship was revealed when she was somewhere between 18 and 20, but it started before that.  Just because there is no evidence that he didn't molest another of his chidlren doesn't mean it didn't happen.

The ongoing defense of Allen is sickening.  It's like all those years of ongoing defense of Weinstein.  Or Polanski.  Or Spacey.  Or any other fucktard who harasses, assaults, or molests.  

1) Dylan Farrow has indeed told the same story for decades. Since she was 7. I don’t think she’s lying. But memory is a strange thing, and I think there’s a possibility that her memory of the event might be a product of telling the same story for decades, and having that story constantly reinforced by those closest to her. 

2) I’m unaware of evidence that shows Allen and Soon-yi’s relationship started while she was underage, but I’m always open to new information. 

I’m not saying that Woody Allen isn’t a child molester. But right now I have doubts. I don’t think I’m wrong to have doubts. 

[drawkcabi]

On 12/5/2016 at 9:54 AM, Fez said:

This seems fundamentally different from the Woody Allen or Roman Polanski situations, because in this case the 'art' itself is the problem. The movie is whatever the rape equivalent of a snuff film is, and no longer has merit.

 

On 12/5/2016 at 4:43 PM, Myshkin said:

I agree with Fez in that this is fundamentally different from the arguments against Polanski or Allen. In those cases we have artists accused of doing horrible things, quite separate from their art; in this case the horrible thing is part of the art. And while David Selig is correct in saying that Schneider was not physically raped, the terror, humiliation, and pain we see from her on screen are real. Forcing her to experience that terror, humiliation, and pain, without her true consent, was a stated part of Bertolucci's artistic process. It cannot be separated from the art, because it is the art.

 

I agree too. But I also am too repulsed by Roman Polanski and Woody Allen to be able to separate them so they are gone from any of my participating in enjoying their art. They say 'never say never', but with these two I feel safe saying I never want to see anything from them again. Lena Dunham too, true to a lesser extent, but also still past the point where I'd ever feel anywhere near comfortable enjoying anything she does. Orson Scott Card has been on my "artists/entertainmers ruined for me" list for years now just for his hateful opinions.

Ugh! Such a difficult time for fans of movies, TV, comedians, art and entertainment in general. But that being said, in the grander scheme of things, what the victims went through/are going through, their stories are what's important to keep in mind and their hurt, pain, and suffering is a thousand times greater than any inconvenience of a fan and they can never be forgotten.

There are some, like Louie C. K. and Al Franken that I am very disappointed in, but from what I know now (and that must be extremely stressed) if they convince me they've learned to be better people now, for all they've done I can see myself enjoying their work again.

I can see myself still enjoying movies now like Trading Places and Stuart Saves His Family and old reruns of SNL now, and even if Franken were to return to SNL (something I'm betting we're going to see before this current season ends as a guest/cameo appearance at least) I don't think it would bother me. I even think Franken could not be done with running for political office in 4, 6, or 8 years down the road with a campaign theme that says something like "I was wrong to do it, I hurt other people and I'm ashamed for it, I'd like to serve the public again, I promise you will never be betrayed by me by hearing about any inappropriate behavior henceforth, so voters can decide again, now with everything out there and on the table, if I'm worthy of representing and serving them." Whether I'd vote for him (not being a resident of Minnesota, it'd mean he'd be either living someplace new or in the running for something big for that to happen) I don't know, I only can see it being something feasible.

Louie C.K. needs to stay out of my mind for a little longer before I feel comfortable watching his show or stand ups again, but in a year or two and C.K. showing he's turned himself around as much for the hurt and/or discomfort he's caused others as much as the harm done to his career, I can see myself back to watching him.

Then there are others  with accusations against them like Stan Lee, Aziz Ansari, and Neil Degrasse Tyson, that I think are shake downs or exaggerations, any accusers need to be given enough respect and consideration but sometimes those accused or defending the accused can seem to have the more legitimate and weighty argument. It's unfortunate that opportunists arise to take advantage of even the most distasteful ways possible. We can't let "opportunism" be an across the board argument for the invalidation of harassment/abuse accusations though. Respect, consideration, and legitimacy to every accuser, only evidence, corroboration, a convincing argument matters as well.

Back to separating art and artists, the severity or seeming severity of their actions and misdeeds is only part of it. Ben Affleck and Matt Damon, unless it gets much worse for them, I can't see myself not separating them from their art for the art's sake because so much of their art has been wrapped up in the art that speaks to me, more so than Polanski and Allen (even if Radio Days is one of my favorite films I can see myself never watching that again, Good Will Hunting, School Ties, The Bourne Identity, The Ocean's movies or many of the View Askew movies, or just the quantity if not the quality of movies they are associated with that have made an impact with me, I can't ignore).

Casey Affleck, I've never seen Manchester by the Sea or much he's done or in besides Good Will Hunting and Race The Sun and Ocean's movies as an actor. His art isn't important to me, and maybe it makes me an asshole that that has to matter with all this but it does.

Kevin Spacey I'm totally disgusted with. I stopped watching House of Cards this last season before the whole scandal broke because I watched one episode of the new season and was bored as hell with it. I thought maybe I'd get back to it later. Then the scandal broke and now I know I'm not watching the rest of the season nor any further seasons with or without him.

His movies though. That's a problem. So many of them are quintessential "new classics" and just all around amazing movies. I can see myself taking a break from all things Spacey right now, but never seeing The Usual Suspects or L.A. Confidential again? I'm not prepared to commit to that. Even if Spacey's career wasn't done, which it almost certainly is, I don't think I'd give him a chance on anything new. He'd be with Allen and Polanski in the "too severe to ever forgive" range. But the movies he's all ready made...

I might feel cold towards new projects by Ben Affleck, Matt Damon, Dustin Hoffman, Schwarzenegger, and James Franco. Franco I'm still waiting to see how things will turn out, but it looks like he's a creep. Then there's Sylvester Stallone, which I hope beyond hope accusations against are just a shake down but he's been around so long and in the industry so long his hands can't be clean, if his reputation comes out in the same condition no worse for wear as Schwarzenegger's I think he'll be lucky. I admit Stallone would be the hardest for me, because I've not only loved his movies all my life but for good or for bad I've loved and admired him, the persona of him he's shown to the world since becoming famous.

No matter what I can't ever see myself as not being a fan of and admiring and wanting to re-watch The Graduate, Tootsie, Rainman, Freaks and Geeks, Spiderman, Rise of the Planet of the Apes, The Usual Suspects, Seven, L.A. Confidential, American Beauty, Pay It Forward, K-Pax, Beyond the Sea, 21, Superman Returns, Total Recall, The Terminator, Predator, Commando, The Running Man, the Rocky movies, the aforementioned Affleck and Damon movies, etc.

That brings me too the big one. Marlon Brando. That is absolutely horrible and disgusting what he Bertolucci did. As bad as Polanski and Allen and yet like Fez says, a different animal because the art they made is also the crime. I have never seen Last Tango in Paris and now I never will. But The Godfather and Superman are movies that are part of my soul. Part of the make up of me. They are art that transcends what the actors/writers/directors/producers that came together to make them made. From my subjective view. I can never give them up, all I can do is feel twinges of disappointment and anger now when I watch those movies and see that actor in them and that's a sad thing. It's also selfish. I know that. And me feeling a pang of disappointment/sorrow/disgust when watching Vito make someone an offer they can't refuse or Jor-El place the last crystal on the ship that sends his infant son to safety from his doomed world is NOTHING compared to the hurt of Brando's victim(s), but there it is. Some art can't be denied from some people. Polanski and Allen are easier for me to forsake, for others they may be as important as Brando and Hoffman and Stallone is to me. It's subjective. It's hypocritical. It's art.

I've said this somewhere else and it's something I believe is true and feel is true. Gremlins, The Goonies, Stand By Me, The Lost Boys these are also movies near and dear to my heart, art that has intertwined itself in my social make-up as I've grown up like Superman, The Godfather, and Rocky. Corey Feldman has been shouting for years about the abuse he's suffered and he's either just not been heard (like I didn't hear) or was labeled crazy insane. Now he's corroborated his claims. I believe him. If a genie appeared to me and said he could change it so Corey Feldman was never abused in his life only it would mean those movies will have never existed, I will have no memory of them,no one will, and the choice is mine. I'd say "do it, change it", without hesitation.

But those movies do exist. And thus I can't separate what they mean to me. I can only offer my sincere apologies to Feldman for not hearing him sooner and that all the disgusting abuse had to happen at all. I'm so sorry Corey. 

The people that did these horrible things, if there's enough proof beyond a reasonable doubt, and I'm not talking about in a court of law here but just beyond a reasonable doubt in public opinion, then they as people can be universally condemned and those who defend them can follow them to Hell.

The art exists though, it means different things to different people, for some its importance transcends even the hurt it caused by being brought into existence. It is something everybody needs to think about as the allegations have come forth, keep coming forth, and ultimately everybody needs to make their own private decisions about while respecting what others think or not think of it and say about it, but not be told by others what they should think or say about it.

[Dr. Pepper]

11 minutes ago, Myshkin said:

1) Dylan Farrow has indeed told the same story for decades. Since she was 7. I don’t think she’s lying. But memory is a strange thing, and I think there’s a possibility that her memory of the event might be a product of telling the same story for decades, and having that story constantly reinforced by those closest to her. 

2) I’m unaware of evidence that shows Allen and Soon-yi’s relationship started while she was underage, but I’m always open to new information. 

I’m not saying that Woody Allen isn’t a child molester. But right now I have doubts. I don’t think I’m wrong to have doubts. 

1)Yes, a common thing to tell victims is that their memory must be wrong.  It's weird how no one tells people like Soon-yi or Mia Farrow's other children must have poor memories when they claim that Mia Farrow as abusive towards them.  Everyone automatically believes it, whereas they disbelieve it when the accusations are towards a man.  A man who married his stepdaughter!!! A man who has called that relationship very paternalistic.  Their story about the entire thing has changed tremendously over time.  Why aren't you saying that Woody Allen's denial isn't also a reinforcement told to himself over and over and further reinforced by a public and media that is incredibly hostile to victims of sexual abuse?  The person who is wrong is always the victim, amirite.

2) I guess it's not a surprise that people who think Allen didn't molest at more than one of his children disbelieve the age issue.  Soon-yi's age is a guess, and of course she's always older when people want to defend a child molester and so they say she wasn't underage.  And it's true that she wasn't underage when the relationship became public.  But the relationship started before that.  Nude pictures that had been taken before that was how the relationship had been revealed.  There are also public remarks about how they'd spent time abroad at least a year before the public found out.  Not to mention the constantly changing story for how the relationship began.  And again, Soon-yi's age is always younger when people aren't trying to defend a child molester. 

3.) That you have doubts is simply a result of society telling you that men are to be believed over women and especially over victims. You're simply following a pattern of behavior that society has approved of forever.  Call the victim a liar, say their memory is suspect.  But the abuser's memory is never suspect.  

 Again, we have a man who married his stepdaughter, his children's sister.  He says their relationship was very paternalistic at the start.  What on earth has a decent person have doubts about this shitbag?  It's the same sort of mentality that continues to support child rapists like Roman Polanksi and makes excuses for why he raped.  You're 'doubts' about someone who, again in case you've forgotten, married his stepdaughter and admits to having groomed her makes you a pretty shitty person.  

[Myshkin]

1) It is also sadly not uncommon for false memories to be implanted into a child’s mind through reinforcement. Nor is it unheard of for a parent to be falsely accused of molesting their child during a custody battle. The circumstances around Dylan Farrow’s accusation make me believe that this is possible in this case. Not that this is definitively what happened, but that it is possible. 

2) Soon-yi’s passport gives her year of birth as 1970, making her 21 when the relationship was discovered. I realize that her actual date of birth is in dispute, but I guess it’s no surprise that she’s always younger when people want to believe that this is a clear cut case of child molestation (see what I did there?). Right now you’re passing your assumptions off as cold hard facts. I’d ask you to please stop doing that. 

3) That I have doubts is a function of my ability to think critically about a specific case that presents a specific set of circumstances. I believe Weinstein’s accusers, and Polanski’s, and Spacey’s. I harbor doubts about Allen’s. This is because these are four separate cases, each with their own unique set of circumstances. I start from a place of belief, and as new information is presented my belief is either reinforced or doubts are raised. I don’t think this is a wrongheaded approach. I don’t think it makes me a shitty person. 

Allen’s relationship with Soon-yi is gross for many reasons, but it doesn’t automatically make him a child molester. 

[Dr. Pepper]

Wow, you're playing from the actual shitbag handbook.  Molested children have 'implanted memories'.  For fuck's sake.  

I mean, it's easy to believe Weinstein and Spacey's accusers now that there are so many of them and it's become popular to believe victims.  It's also easy to believe Polanski's victims when he admits to his own crime.  Easy to believe a woman abused her kids.  But apparently a dude who married his stepdaughter is off the table and you call not believing his victims to be 'critical thinking'.  There is literally no question about their relationship, but you still have 'doubts'.  This definitely makes you a shitty person.  You can believe otherwise if you want all you want, but it's not true.  Complete dirtbag, a person who is complicit in revictimizing child abuse victims'

[Myshkin]

Just now, Dr. Pepper said:

Wow, you're playing from the actual shitbag handbook.  Molested children have 'implanted memories'.  For fuck's sake.  

I mean, it's easy to believe Weinstein and Spacey's accusers now that there are so many of them and it's become popular to believe victims.  It's also easy to believe Polanski's victims when he admits to his own crime.  Easy to believe a woman abused her kids.  But apparently a dude who married his stepdaughter is off the table and you call not believing his victims to be 'critical thinking'.  There is literally no question about their relationship, but you still have 'doubts'.  This definitely makes you a shitty person.  You can believe otherwise if you want all you want, but it's not true.  Complete dirtbag, a person who is complicit in revictimizing child abuse victims'

I have no doubts that Allen is in a gross relationship with Soon-yi, I have never said I have doubts that said relationship exists, and I suspect that you are purposefully conflating my thoughts on that relationship with my thoughts on the molestation accusations in an attempt to better position yourself in this argument. You can call me names all you want, but if you’re unwilling to at the least be honest in this argument then you can go fuck yourself.

[DireWolfSpirit]

I completely separate the art from the artist with no difficulty, whether it be Clint Eastwood, Woody Allen, R Kelly, Roman Polanski, Ted Nugent, Casey Afleck, Kevin Spacey, Bill Cosby, Brando or even Mel Gibson. While all of these people may be someone I wouldnt necessarily have over for dinner. it wouldnt prevent me from enjoying a song they made or a movie theyve acted in or directed.

[Dr. Pepper]

Just now, Myshkin said:

I have no doubts that Allen is in a gross relationship with Soon-yi, I have never said I have doubts that said relationship exists, and I suspect that you are purposefully conflating my thoughts on that relationship with my thoughts on the molestation accusations in an attempt to better position yourself in this argument. You can call me names all you want, but if you’re unwilling to at the least be honest in this argument then you can go fuck yourself.

What the fuck?  The idea that I need to 'better position' myself in a discussion about sexual abuse is mind-boggling.  You're either a shitbag or you aren't.  You've decided to be the shitbag.  Me simply not being a shitbag isn't a calculated position.  It's default.  You came into this with the full knowledge that you were going to take the worst position on things and risk being 'piled on'.  There's really no arguing with dirtbags like you.  Once you start accusing victims of implanted memories and supporting their violators, you're too far past gone.  Hopefully one day there will at least be legal consequences for your sort of scum.

[Dr. Pepper]

5 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

I completely separate the art from the artist with no difficulty, whether it be Clint Eastwood, Woody Allen, R Kelly, Roman Polanski, Ted Nugent, Casey Afleck, Kevin Spacey, Bill Cosby, Brando or even Mel Gibson. While all of these people may be someone I wouldnt necessarily have over for dinner. it wouldnt prevent me from enjoying a song they made or a movie theyve acted in or directed.

And what of their victims?  That these criminals are free to go on and make art and live their life while their victims have to suffer is a terrible thing.  And your knowing support of their art is what puts them repeatedly in front of their victims.  This isn't about deciding who you want over for dinner - there are a lot of non-criminals I don't want for dinner, including some horrific shitbags in this thread - it's about not providing the platform for a perpetrator to continue to victimize.

[Dr. Pepper]

I totally get in cases like Ansari where things aren't exactly clear cut that opinions could vary widely.  Even I'm a bit unclear exactly how I feel about that case.  I was also a bit unclear how I felt about Al Franken and am disappointed that even with photo evidence it took multiple victims before I stopped wavering.  But the fact is that not all cases are as clear cut as those like Brando, Allen, Polanski, Cosby, and Spacey or even Clinton.  You waver on those and you're just shitty.  They are pretty black and white.  The Ansari cases, not so much.  There's a lot of room for discussion on them.  

[DireWolfSpirit]

45 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

And what of their victims?  That these criminals are free to go on and make art and live their life while their victims have to suffer is a terrible thing.  And your knowing support of their art is what puts them repeatedly in front of their victims.  This isn't about deciding who you want over for dinner - there are a lot of non-criminals I don't want for dinner, including some horrific shitbags in this thread - it's about not providing the platform for a perpetrator to continue to victimize.

I dont think I have any influence over who has or doesnt have a platform. Most of the people I mentioned earlier I see their works on cable or listen to music on mp3 or Google Home, thats about it. If they have a platform its not something I have a say in. Brando's not even alive anymore. Eastwood and Nugent are shitbag Republicans and if youve ever noticed from the political thread, I hate fucking Republicans quite a bit. Yet it doesnt prevent me from liking a few of Teds songs or some of Clints old Westerns, I separate my hate of their vile beliefs from their music or acting/Directing.

[Annara Snow]

Last Tango in Paris is incredibly overrated anyway. I was incredibly underwhelmed by it.

Watch Intimacy instead, if you want a genuinely strong, emotionally complex, well-directed and acted sexually explicit erotic drama about people in a similar kind of "strangers as regular sex partners" relationship (minus the age gap and power disbalance).

[Mladen]

Is Allen's relationship with his wife gross? Of course it is. But is it sinister? Is it molestation? That is where the opinions differ. And given the inconclusiveness of the provided evidence, I don't think anyone can claim anything with absolute certainty. And since they have been together for what, almost 30 years, with various accounts of them being loving, functioning couple, one can't so easily be dismissive about it. As gross as it is.

The Farrow case is also inconclusive. Yes, every possible scenario is possible. It is possible that Allen molested her and that the process was faulty. It is also possible that he is innocent, regardless of his gross relations with Soon-yi. Whom to trust? Well, as someone said, it is a far lesser damage if we trust Farrow, but we can't be so dismissive of other things. That is why we also take into account of other evidence beside the victim's word. That is why hearsay is unacceptable at court of law. And, as much as I sympathize with Farrow on this, and I do believe that she believes and feels that something that shouldn't have happened, happened. That is her reality, but what really happened, that remains a question.

Allen case is probably unique in this conversation as we simply can't "properly" categorize it. And with all the stars denouncing him and being dragged into this (by Farrow herself, to be completely honest), we may never know what really happened. We will have public perception on the situation without ever truly figuring out the truth. Is that enough? No, since there will always be, as this thread shows, those who will point out at people and have rather formed opinion about what happened.

Even for others, whose crimes we know actually happened, based on the mountain of evidence or their own admission of guilt, separation is not easy process. I watched "The Pianist" way back when, at the time fully unaware of the Polanski's case, and it remains, for me, something that deeply impacted me and my love for movies. Same goes with Spacey, whose work was truly outstanding. In words of "Game of Thrones" - we stripped their finery and what we found there was nothing less of disgusting. As for Affleck, Damon, Franco, there is nothing for me to connect to, so even if I decide to cut the cord, they won't be missed.

 

[Winterfell is Burning]

9 hours ago, Myshkin said:

At the risk of getting piled on, I’m kinda with Winterfell is Burning on the Allen subject. Soon-yi was in her 20’s when she and Allen say they began their relationship. Whatever else we think about the icky-ness that relationship, as far as I can tell there’s no evidence that it started when she was underage. As for the allegations about Allen molesting Dylan Farrow, there are reasons why reasonable people might harbor doubts. That doesn’t make them bad people or victim blamers. When we say that victims of sexual violence should be believed, that doesn’t (or shouldn’t) mean that we should suspend our critical thinking; it means that belief should be the default, as it is for victims of other crimes. Did Woody Allen molest Dylan Farrow? I don’t know. But I don’t think the case is so cut and dry as most of us want to believe it is.

For the record, I am not a fan of Allen’s art.

This. Basic common sense.

[Winterfell is Burning]

7 hours ago, Myshkin said:

1) It is also sadly not uncommon for false memories to be implanted into a child’s mind through reinforcement. Nor is it unheard of for a parent to be falsely accused of molesting their child during a custody battle. The circumstances around Dylan Farrow’s accusation make me believe that this is possible in this case. Not that this is definitively what happened, but that it is possible. 

2) Soon-yi’s passport gives her year of birth as 1970, making her 21 when the relationship was discovered. I realize that her actual date of birth is in dispute, but I guess it’s no surprise that she’s always younger when people want to believe that this is a clear cut case of child molestation (see what I did there?). Right now you’re passing your assumptions off as cold hard facts. I’d ask you to please stop doing that. 

3) That I have doubts is a function of my ability to think critically about a specific case that presents a specific set of circumstances. I believe Weinstein’s accusers, and Polanski’s, and Spacey’s. I harbor doubts about Allen’s. This is because these are four separate cases, each with their own unique set of circumstances. I start from a place of belief, and as new information is presented my belief is either reinforced or doubts are raised. I don’t think this is a wrongheaded approach. I don’t think it makes me a shitty person. 

Allen’s relationship with Soon-yi is gross for many reasons, but it doesn’t automatically make him a child molester. 

Regarding false memories of abuse, it's a very real thing. Some links about the issue:

https://thepsychologist.bps.org.uk/volume-30/july-2017/false-memories-childhood-abuse

http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume4/j4_4_9.htm

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2010/nov/24/false-memories-abuse-convict-innocent

But yeah, that poster is not really interested in debating, only in making himself feel superior. It's a waste of time debating with him.

 

 

[mormont]

[mod] Let's dial back the personal comments on this thread, please. You can think what you like about other users in private, but please don't be calling them names on the board. [/mod]

[Dr. Pepper]

Ah, I see.  This week we're ok with victim shaming and blaming, as well as purposely misgendering people. 

 

I can have flexible morals with certain things, but I seem to be unique in understanding that things like rape and child molestation are particularly heinous crimes.  I couldn't knowingly support a rapist or child molester and if I did consume some of their art unknowingly, I simply couldn't be such a shitbag that I'd excuse it with something lame like "but I really liked it!"  No, I don't separate rapist artists from their art.  There is plenty of other art to enjoy.

[polishgenius]

1 hour ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Ah, I see.  This week we're ok with victim shaming and blaming,

Who's either shaming or blaming Dylan Farrow here? I mean, I disagree with Myshkin in that I think there's plenty enough evidence around both her case and Soon-Yi to believe Dylan Farrow and that any idea that she was coached is ridiculous but I don't think that believing that listening to victims- which Farrow emphatically wasn't for many years, by many people, in Hollywood at least- in her private life thankfully moreso, though, obviously, someone still failed her - and believing their accusations as read aren't the same thing makes Myshkin a monster.


 

 

4 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Regarding false memories of abuse, it's a very real thing. Some links about the issue:

https://thepsychologist.bps.org.uk/volume-30/july-2017/false-memories-childhood-abuse

http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume4/j4_4_9.htm

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2010/nov/24/false-memories-abuse-convict-innocent

But yeah, that poster is not really interested in debating, only in making himself feel superior. It's a waste of time debating with him.

 

 

Two things: one, if you know Dr. Pepper well enough to know what she's interested in in debate then you know she's not a he (I mean, if her avatar and member title didn't fucking clue you in), so don't be a dick, and two, all those sources deal with memories implanted/created, by accident or through bad treatment, in adults. Dylan Farrow reported her story on the day it happened and has been telling the same one since. Not the same thing.

[Dr. Pepper]

3 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Who's either shaming or blaming Dylan Farrow here? I mean, I disagree with Myshkin in that I think there's plenty enough evidence around both her case and Soon-Yi to believe Dylan Farrow and that any idea that she was coached is ridiculous but I don't think that believing that listening to victims- which Farrow emphatically wasn't for many years, by many people, in Hollywood at least- in her private life thankfully moreso, though, obviously, someone still failed her - and believing their accusations as read aren't the same thing makes Myshkin a monster.
 

Half of Myskin and winterfell is burnings argument has to do with Dylan not being the right type of victim.  Lots of pointing out that there was an ensuing custody battle (after the allegations, btw.  the allegations kicked off the custody dispute) or that she was also likely abused by Mia Farrow, and so on.  

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Dylan Farrow reported her story on the day it happened and has been telling the same one since. Not the same thing.

Court records also indicate that multiple people, some unrelated to the family, observed highly unusual behavior and focus from Allen towards Dylan over a period of time, all of which began before his grooming and relationship (it's really disgusting to identify it as such and not as abuse) of Soon yi was discovered.  And again, all of this investigation about Allen's behavior towards Dylan began before his behavior toward Soon yi was discovered and before custody battle pursuits.  It was all of this that led Allen to begin pursuing custody of his kids, which the judge ruled against though acknowledged that there wasn't enough evidence to bring Allen to trial for crimes.  That's often to case when it comes to sex crimes.