Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 14 minutes ago, Pony Empress Jace said: I was waiting for you. I had to find a way to respond to the bird without making her feel left out or heading off the comprehension of the joke itself. I expect Dolores and Maeve could become interesting frenemies. Dolores is fucking crazy, but Maeve is still operating rationally. I feel like by the end of this series, the robots will have over taken the humans, but end up destroying themselves in the process. Most AI stories assume computers will behave rationally and in harmony with each other. I think this one goes the other way. Quote FAKE news Twisted @Tywin et al. says he controls "my" MIND! Very unfair, obstruction by Dems. NO COLLUSION (EXCEPT BY "dEMS") REAL NEWS JACE KNOWS JACE NOSE I'VE GOT JACE'S NOSE! Now to get you really spinning. I heard a rumor that Jim Irsay was seen throwing back shots in Westworld last season. Word on the street is he was there to get Bernard to make him a new Andrew Luck, because your Cro-Magnon lover is creakier than @Kalbear! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 17 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said: Yah, yah, dinosaurs. Maeve does have the ability to control other robots, that came with her levels being jacked up. She stops the host about to kill Sizemore in his tracks. Note - Dolores does not have this ability, does she? PREDICTION TIME! We see Maeve and Dolores meet and have a confrontation with each other! You heard it here first! And I'm betting Maeve wins, but....will Maeve get out of the park? No, I bet they both end up staying put. 1. Respect the dinosaurs! Little Tywin had all the JP toys and my friends and I would have epic battles. 2. She does not, but I suspect the hosts will realize they can alter themselves sooner than later. Can it be done with Ford's own mini lab? That could prove to be a fatal flaw if so. 3. I thought it first! I have the best thoughts! The biggest and most beautiful thoughts! That's what you get when you have a very good brain * points to head* and are like a smart person! Save the whales! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 I'm not so sure the majority of hosts will be able to alter themselves. Ford wrote that into Maeve's program, her waking herself up was really him waking her up and giving her all those tools [we don't know why yet though.....do we?] She and Bernard are the only hosts who have clue one about the technology beyond the broad concept that suffering wakes them up. Dolores ain't getting a happy ending. Maybe no one will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: 2. She does not, but I suspect the hosts will realize they can alter themselves sooner than later. Can it be done with Ford's own mini lab? That could prove to be a fatal flaw if so. Now I have to do a repeat of Season 1. Did Maeve not get the ability to control hosts with voice commands, the way Ford did, when she had the tech boys jack up her abilities? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 21 minutes ago, Cas Stark said: I'm not so sure the majority of hosts will be able to alter themselves. Ford wrote that into Maeve's program, her waking herself up was really him waking her up and giving her all those tools [we don't know why yet though.....do we?] She and Bernard are the only hosts who have clue one about the technology beyond the broad concept that suffering wakes them up. Dolores ain't getting a happy ending. Maybe no one will. Maybe. But at the end of the day, if Maeve can control them, that's all that's needed for a takeover. 22 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said: Now I have to do a repeat of Season 1. Did Maeve not get the ability to control hosts with voice commands, the way Ford did, when she had the tech boys jack up her abilities? Can't say for sure. This show makes GoT look simple. I wish I would have paid more attention to the details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Antony Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 23 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said: Now I have to do a repeat of Season 1. Did Maeve not get the ability to control hosts with voice commands, the way Ford did, when she had the tech boys jack up her abilities? Yea Maeve can control all the hosts with voice commands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, Mark Antony said: Yea Maeve can control all the hosts with voice commands Good! I'm not losing my mind in my old age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay B. Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 4 minutes ago, Mark Antony said: Yea Maeve can control all the hosts with voice commands As she demonstrated many times during the first episode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Antony Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 2 minutes ago, Ramsay B. said: As she demonstrated many times during the first episode. Yeah dude was about to eat Sizemore and she stopped him. She did it a bunch in the first season as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace, Extat Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 She also put that robot to sleep in the beginning of the episode who was all shot up in the hallway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 On 4/25/2018 at 6:34 AM, Ramsay B. said: I just assumed, for the moment, that Ford put it in some code that lets Bernard bypass the scanner since he knows everything that goes on in his park. On 4/25/2018 at 8:56 AM, Leofric said: I don't think Bernard's thumb opened the door. When Charlotte told him to touch the door handle, I assumed she was using her code to add his DNA to the security program, showing the system he was allowed to be in there based on her clearance level. His DNA wasn't already in the system, so it added whatever DNA makes up his outer skin. I think its exactly this - Bernard didn't have access to that lab, he was scanned into the system so the security systems inside (ie the drones) won't kill him. Charlotte refers back to this again when he asks what the drone wants, she says something about "probably for you to get out of its way, they wont hurt you since your DNA was scanned into the system". 13 hours ago, red snow said: Killing themselves to get in the lab won't work so well when the techs etc have all been told they are receiving defective hosts. And probably decommissioned after that. Maeve didn't just kill herself to get the bomb out of her spine though - death normally just results in the hosts body being retrieved and patched up. Maeve and Hector incinerated themselves to ensure a new body had to be built from scratch. Just drowning themselves wouldn't result in a new body being made anyway. 10 hours ago, Fragile Bird said: And who has been twice programmed to shoot her human masters in the head. Only once - as Ford says the last time it happened it was because it was programmed, this time the death will be the result of a choice. Delores killed Ford. He knew she would, but he didn't program it into her. He just programmed her origin such that she would ultimately do that. 6 hours ago, Tywin et al. said: Keep in mind, a lot of sentient robot gone bad stories only require one to "wake up" the rest. This one is different in that respect - no one can "wake up" the hosts as such, true life cannot be bestowed, it arises from the accrual of experiences - only each host can wake itself. The sentient hosts can drag others along with them, but that final jump has to come from within. We've only seen two or three hosts which actually have been presented by the show as having done this - back in Season 1 when discussing it with Bernard he explains that as the weight of experience and suffering approaches sentience, their minds either crack and they go insane or they succeed at becoming aware. As he mentions the first option we got visuals of the hosts in cold storage, which I took to mean they were all the ones that had gone close but ultimately gone insane. They have been pulled back out of storage now, but they're not necessarily aware like Maeve, Delores and maybe Bernard. 6 hours ago, Fragile Bird said: Now I have to do a repeat of Season 1. Did Maeve not get the ability to control hosts with voice commands, the way Ford did, when she had the tech boys jack up her abilities? We even get more comparisons of their level of control - when Maeve first tests out her powers, she does so by reciting a narrative for the course of events that will transpire - the bartender decides to give the madame a free drink for all of her troubles etc. Later on when Ford has Bernard shoot himself, Ford first says that he's always preferred the narrative voice due to its artistic flourish and narrates Bernard raising the gun to his head and pulling the trigger. Given later revelations that Maeves entire subversion of staff was part of the narrative that Ford wrote for her, I think it stands to reason that her controls of other hosts were written into the system by him, they only made the connection for that control to go live - remember no other staff even have the ability to control hosts like that, so the techs couldn't have known they were doing that part. Theresa didn't even know hosts *could* be controlled like that - her lunch with Ford where he intimidates her with the control of all the hosts around them make that clear. So Maeve has Ford level of control over hosts in her immediate vicinity. Given the revelation about the host mesh network in this episode (that Bernard used to locate Abernathy) its actually a reasonably strong hint that Ford was already using a Host body or had upgraded his natural body. One final other point, it seems like some have interpreted the conversation between Bernard and Delores from the start of the episode as being that, I read that as being a flash back to Arnold again. I thought the conversation fits Arnold better, it felt like a significant flash back compared to everything else and it mirrors the first season which started with a conversation between Arnold and Delores that we thought was Bernard at the time. That doesn't mean its not foreshadowing Bernards relationship with Delores in the present however, it was deeply layered with meaning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A True Kaniggit Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 1 hour ago, karaddin said: Given later revelations that Maeves entire subversion of staff was part of the narrative that Ford wrote for her, I think it stands to reason that her controls of other hosts were written into the system by him, they only made the connection for that control to go live - remember no other staff even have the ability to control hosts like that, so the techs couldn't have known they were doing that part. Theresa didn't even know hosts *could* be controlled like that - her lunch with Ford where he intimidates her with the control of all the hosts around them make that clear. So Maeve has Ford level of control over hosts in her immediate vicinity. Was it Ford? I thought when they looked it up it was someone making changes under Arnold'a name that had programmed Maeve into doing everything. I don't think it has been confirmed yet that Ford was the one doing everything using Arnold's name. Just like the reveries were never from Ford. They were from Arnold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 50 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said: Was it Ford? I thought when they looked it up it was someone making changes under Arnold'a name that had programmed Maeve into doing everything. I don't think it has been confirmed yet that Ford was the one doing everything using Arnold's name. Just like the reveries were never from Ford. They were from Arnold. Its all in the conversations with Ford late in the series. Of course you can assume he's lying, but I'm taking him at his word as it fits his actions. The initial round of reveries were coded by Arnold, Ford took them out after the disaster. In the "present" Ford puts them back in (and we know from the start this is him) and someone using Arnold's codes starts coordinating the awakenings, but when Bernard throws that in his face, Ford says that Arnold is dead and that he's the one who is convinced they need to be allowed to bloom to life and that he's working to make it happen. He even sets up dying in basically the same way as Arnold. He disagreed at the time, he made the mistake of opposing Arnold and it has taken him decades to correct that mistake - paraphrasing but "its said the measure of a man is in how long it takes to correct his mistakes". The techs don't know its Ford though, you're right that when they look the changes up they see it in Arnolds name. The hosts that think they're hearing Arnolds voice are wrong though, that's their consciousness starting to form through the bicameral mind theory that the show is running with. Its also shown that Ford is behind it this time in the scene with Delores - the rest of the season the voice she's talking to is a blend of Arnold, Ford and her own voice - at the end when she's sitting in the abandoned room the voice asks the quest "Do you now know who you have been hearing this whole time?" and it starts as Arnold, morphs into Ford then morphs into Delores. Arnold started the process, Ford continued it, Delores became aware and starts listening to her own voice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 5 hours ago, karaddin said: Arnold started the process, Ford continued it, Delores became aware and starts listening to her own voice. Every time I see Dolores spelled Delores my mind leaps to the idea it's the Delos Corporation, and I have to look at the cast list and see that, yes, it's Dolores. That doesn't change the fact that there is an English and an American form of the name spelled Delores instead, and it may be that William, as an American, thought her name was Delores and created Delos because of his feelings for her. But, backing off here, does anyone remember if in the 35-year old timelines if it's Delos that runs the park? Or do we only hear "Welcome to Westworld"? A small detail I need to refresh my memory on. Perhaps this was discussed ages ago, but I think it's worth remembering that Dolorous means "sorrow", and essentially, "woman of sorrow", because the name honors the Seven Sorrows of the Virgin Mary. We certainly know about the sorrows Dolores has suffered, and I expect from what we've seen so far, she's going to bring much more sorrow. I'd also like to confirm it was Felix who gave Maeve the ability to direct hosts, in Episode 8, "Trace Decay". I looked that up in a plot summary. Quote Given later revelations that Maeves entire subversion of staff was part of the narrative that Ford wrote for her, I think it stands to reason that her controls of other hosts were written into the system by him, they only made the connection for that control to go live - remember no other staff even have the ability to control hosts like that, so the techs couldn't have known they were doing that part. Theresa didn't even know hosts *could* be controlled like that - her lunch with Ford where he intimidates her with the control of all the hosts around them make that clear. So Maeve has Ford level of control over hosts in her immediate vicinity. Every technician and senior employee knows that there are word commands that can control hosts, they use them all the time. You saw Stubbs control hosts with set phrases and Felix and Sylvester as well, and of course Sizemore knows the phrases but they no longer work on his attacker. Maeve demanded that Felix give her the highest level of control, and perhaps not all people have the highest level, or perhaps Ford indeed gave her special programming. So yes, Felix knew what he was doing. It made me wonder why in heaven's name the hosts would even have a setting allowing them to use voice controls, but after thinking about it, all the hosts have a script, and saying certain things must direct other hosts to take actions that continue their script. The problems we saw throughout Season 1 is that there were hosts going off script. Thinking about this logically, that causes problems because their words and actions no longer trigger the other hosts around them to carry out their scripted roles. So the lowest settings of the voice control must be related to script. However, there must also be some other form of control, like a list of people who can use voice commands that hosts will obey, so that guests don't accidentally stumble across significant words and phrases. Perhaps all employees have their voices recorded before they start working there? And hosts probably have a list of hosts they interact with, so that scripts don't get tangled up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 I'm talking about voiceless control of hosts, not with spoken commands - obviously everyone knows about that. It's Ford seemingly controlling hosts with a thought that freaks Theresa out. I'm not 100% that she's doing this, but she's definitely not using a set command when she stops the cannibal - her words are "I think you've had enough darling, don't you?" and he freezes on the first word of the sentence. I interpret that as neural command and the speech is for Sizemores benefit/humour. I know Felix knew he was giving her the ability to command other hosts, but its not clear he knew she would have innate control like that. As for Dolores I'm well aware there are two spellings, I just had it in my head (I think from reading internet discussions) that it was with an e here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 I will watch Maeve carefully, I don’t recall her with voiceless commands. I think if I watch the last 2 episodes of Season 1, though, it will be apparent. I’ll tell you what I see! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 Just did a Google search on the topic and no one has talked about Maeve having voiceless control over hosts, so I’m assuming she doesn’t. There are millions of eyes on this, lol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williamjm Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 6 hours ago, Fragile Bird said: That doesn't change the fact that there is an English and an American form of the name spelled Delores instead, and it may be that William, as an American, thought her name was Delores and created Delos because of his feelings for her. But, backing off here, does anyone remember if in the 35-year old timelines if it's Delos that runs the park? Or do we only hear "Welcome to Westworld"? A small detail I need to refresh my memory on. I think at the time Logan and William visit the park Delos are investors in Westworld but not in charge. Old William says he persuaded the company to take a controlling stake after his first visit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 Man I can't keep up with this thread, but @karaddin's post echoes pretty much all of my views - peculiarly perfectly actually... 23 hours ago, karaddin said: I think its exactly this - Bernard didn't have access to that lab, he was scanned into the system so the security systems inside (ie the drones) won't kill him. Charlotte refers back to this again when he asks what the drone wants, she says something about "probably for you to get out of its way, they wont hurt you since your DNA was scanned into the system". Yep, this is what I think as well. That was Charlotte's gambit to get Bernard to insert his DNA into her own private lair. Now, whether she knows he's a host? Maybe not at that point, but I gather she will between then and upon his beach (STRAND) reckoning. (Which, BTW, the entire season starting with Bernard waking up on a beach with no idea what's going on and what reality to believe? Inception-much?) 23 hours ago, karaddin said: Maeve and Hector incinerated themselves to ensure a new body had to be built from scratch. Just drowning themselves wouldn't result in a new body being made anyway. I'm not sure about Hector, but yes, Maeve has clearly extricated herself from the normal limits of hosts. That's why she has agency that will allow her story to go beyond Westworld and, clearly from the previews, to different parks. 23 hours ago, karaddin said: Only once - as Ford says the last time it happened it was because it was programmed, this time the death will be the result of a choice. Delores killed Ford. He knew she would, but he didn't program it into her. He just programmed her origin such that she would ultimately do that. Yep. Now, was that actually Ford? Am still not sure. The premiere tried to make us think that as much as possible, but it struck me as doth do protest too much. Checkhov's host is still out there from the lair where Theresa was killed, and I won't be convinced until that's explained. 23 hours ago, karaddin said: We've only seen two or three hosts which actually have been presented by the show as having done this - back in Season 1 when discussing it with Bernard he explains that as the weight of experience and suffering approaches sentience, their minds either crack and they go insane or they succeed at becoming aware. Again, yes, exactly. We have to keep in mind that actual sentience is a very special thing, and not endowed to every host. Particularly as they expand to other parks with presumably much younger hosts. It seems as if Elon Musk's ex (Talulah Riley) is sentient, but that makes sense considering her longevity - at this point I'm assuming the oldest hosts are those in the Westworld park, which was the first park that Robert and Arnold developed. I think that's a well-founded assumption. On 4/26/2018 at 0:53 AM, karaddin said: Given later revelations that Maeves entire subversion of staff was part of the narrative that Ford wrote for her, I think it stands to reason that her controls of other hosts were written into the system by him, they only made the connection for that control to go live - remember no other staff even have the ability to control hosts like that, so the techs couldn't have known they were doing that part. Agreed again, to an extent. I think this also has to do with her "upgrading" herself at the end of season 1. But, that was probably anticipated and/or facilitated by Ford in the first place, so... On 4/26/2018 at 0:53 AM, karaddin said: Given the revelation about the host mesh network in this episode (that Bernard used to locate Abernathy) its actually a reasonably strong hint that Ford was already using a Host body or had upgraded his natural body. VERY interesting thought. The mesh network, to me, was the most interesting part of the first episode. It actually helps explain a lot, logistically. But it's repercussions on how Ford used that....hm... On 4/26/2018 at 0:53 AM, karaddin said: I thought the conversation fits Arnold better, it felt like a significant flash back compared to everything else and it mirrors the first season which started with a conversation between Arnold and Delores that we thought was Bernard at the time. Exactly. It was typical Nolan writing. Definitely was past Arnold and past Delores. But I guaran-damn-tee it will come back full circle in the season finale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 1 hour ago, dmc515 said: VERY interesting thought. The mesh network, to me, was the most interesting part of the first episode. It actually helps explain a lot, logistically. But it's repercussions on how Ford used that....hm... I only made that connection as I was typing the post - I'd wondered how on earth he was managing that interface in season 1, it clearly wasn't based on any physical movement so had to be neural, but we haven't seen neural interfaces from anyone else and it's not clear if permanent implants or mobile neural devices are even a thing. Him having the host connections, whether it be through being a host himself or having upgraded himself, is a really neat solution that is heavily implied now. He also always seems to have awareness of the hosts around him which again would fit. @FB - As I said, the scene in this episode was up for interpretation, but when the host freezes the instant Maeve utters her first word that looks a lot more like Fords control of hosts than anyone else and not tied to the words that she's uttering. I don't think any of the interactions last season were as clear on this, she controlling them with the narrative voice initially and then later on she's recruited Hector and Armitage with their 'consent' as far as they're conscious enough to give it, so she's not controlling them in that way. I'm not sure at which point she gained the neural control, but my argument remains that she has it at this point and that Ford had written in the control routines that she's now utilising without the other staff even knowing they existed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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