.H.

HBO's Westworld V - These violent delights... [Spoilers]

263 posts in this topic

Nah, we haven't seen Stubb's throat slit. He's a prisoner of the Ghost tribe.

I really, really can't see a large group of humans being slaughtered in season 1.  The pro comments: we saw Dolores kill all the Hosts a long time ago and she could beat up the MiB, we all expect some horrible doom to happen.  Con: Even though Dolores dragged around the MiB and beat him, he wasn't really hurt, he attended dinner that night; killing a large number of humans would be a disaster for the park, it's very expensive to run and there have been present-day suggestions it needs more money; the Hosts still have a lot of evolving to do, the park has to continue to run.

I don't think that the Hosts in the discard room have evolved to sentience, they have programming issues.  They need to evolve more. Abernathy's circuits got fried looking at the picture of William's wife. That wasn't sentience. Clementine was manipulated to show violence, to take down Ford.  The milk guy talked about Arnold, his circuits also fried from hearing voices.  That does not mean sentience.

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2 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

I think Dolores is ultimately a red herring...it's Maeve who achieved the highest consciousness by breaking the programmed narrative of infiltrating and escaping...

As I mentioned above, the actor who plays William was asked to give us a hint and he said 'watch Dolores carefully'.

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2 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

As I mentioned above, the actor who plays William was asked to give us a hint and he said 'watch Dolores carefully'.

Yah. But I'm still not certain what he wants us to look for!  Unless you're suggesting he's suggesting something similar to what I'm saying...

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a very good show, 9/10, but this criticism is valid

 

they rely on lying to the viewer to create mystery and suspense

 

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17 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

If you believe, as was mentioned above, that everything on the grain with Maeve was scripted, including getting off and going to look for her daughter then this makes sense. However it also assumes that Felix is actually a host and Maeve simply can't see it.  

However, if Felix is truly human, then his doing his part to get that info on the little girl for Maeve can't be part of what Ford plans with her...which seems to be that she should actually escape.

I think Dolores is ultimately a red herring...it's Maeve who achieved the highest consciousness by breaking the programmed narrative of infiltrating and escaping...

Unless Ford gave Felix that information?

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Music selection was truly superb, looping back around to Radiohead with Exit Music (For a Film) also ties into the Violent delights line.

FB I said they're the ones on the cusp, not that they had achieved it. It could still be decades but they're the ones it's working with aside from the on screen ones. Clem wasn't a routine retirement, so I see her as an exception.

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6 minutes ago, red snow said:

Unless Ford gave Felix that information?

That makes Felix more of a player than there is any indication that he would be.  He's not that good of an actor (Felix, not the actual actor).

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No, I think Dolores is going to be very significant.

But...I still don't think she's Wyatt, because she makes that statement about someone else is coming.  Like St. John the Baptist talking about Christ....

My current expectations for Season 2.

We will see more of Medieval Japan, but we will continue to see Westworld as the main site.  We will see more of what happened in the past, which is why Ford might indeed be dead and only appears in the past.

Important new storylines:

1.  Angela - she greeted William in the beginning and then lo and behold, reappears.  Her most important clue - she tells Teddy he isn't ready yet, maybe in his next life.  In fact, I think every character who talked about their next life is far along, Maeve and Hector, for example.

2.  Maeve's search for her daughter.  She will continue to suffer. 

3.  And we will hear more about Isabel and Hector, I'm sure of it.

4.  We will continue with multiple timelines. We will see more details from the past storylines, how Ford's opinion became changed, while also picking up from the Celebration that ended the season.

5.  Elsie and Stubbs will have major storylines, they are definitely not dead.

6.  With Maeve asking Felix what the Samurai place was, and his answering 'it's complicated', we will definitely see more of Japan. I am also more and more suspicious of Felix.  If Maeve's actions have all been scripted, Felix is either a very good actor or he is also scripted, a Host Maeve can't recognize because she's been programmed not to recognize him as a Host.  I wonder if the tech who lost his finger in Armistice's mouth is also a Host, all of this being scripted, like Hector's sexual abuse by this guy. Trauma.

7.  We will continue to see the Wyatt storyline play out.

8.  Sizemore, the writer.  He is apparently senior enough that he was in a good position to ask Charlotte to be able to take over the park after Ford.  He represents the conflict between the Board and Ford, with Charlotte, between dumbing down the storylines to please visitors who want things simple, and the desire of Ford to make things more complicated so the Hosts can develop.

I think we will see much more suffering, because let's face it, human history is one of misery.  And great literature, art, dance, music, philosophy, compassion and everything else you can think of is often a response to pain and misery.

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52 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

I don't think that the Hosts in the discard room have evolved to sentience, they have programming issues.  They need to evolve more. Abernathy's circuits got fried looking at the picture of William's wife. That wasn't sentience. Clementine was manipulated to show violence, to take down Ford.  The milk guy talked about Arnold, his circuits also fried from hearing voices.  That does not mean sentience.

As has been said, I think they were on the cusp too. Clem is an exception, but Abernathy was the one spouting the 'violent delights' line and he saw past his programming to recognize the picture was unusual. The milk guy was hearing voices in his head just as we saw Dolores hearing Arnold (who was actually herself). Dolores has a few scenes where she was looking quite bewildered and mad too. I don't expect each host to come to consciousness in the same way. Ford (I think) did say there were a handful of hosts on that path.

The main issue with keeping those that appear to be on the cusp in cold storage is that they are lobotomized, which would seemingly negate the practice of cold storage to keep them 'safe'.

I liked the ending, but am left unsatisfied on a lot of levels. Some of it is by design, but some of it it is by the storytelling. I was on the MiB/William train, but was ultimately let down by it. It didn't seem like a natural evolution. I get that he was supposed to have snapped a little through his adventures (or maybe been unleashed is a better term?), but it seemed abrupt and the story about killing Maeve's daughter didn't fit well with that narrative since he looked well on his way to awfulness by the end of his first trip. I guess I was projecting what I wanted his story to be onto what was actually happening. I was hoping there was a purpose for his actions rather than just, yep, I'm a bastard. And his quest for the maze was really, really anticlimactic. And Teddy's backstory seemed like it mirrored William's in a lot of ways, but I guess it wasn't by design? Here's hoping more seasons will tie this all up together more and be more satisfying.

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1 hour ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

If you believe, as was mentioned above, that everything on the grain with Maeve was scripted, including getting off and going to look for her daughter then this makes sense. However it also assumes that Felix is actually a host and Maeve simply can't see it.  

However, if Felix is truly human, then his doing his part to get that info on the little girl for Maeve can't be part of what Ford plans with her...which seems to be that she should actually escape.

I think Dolores is ultimately a red herring...it's Maeve who achieved the highest consciousness by breaking the programmed narrative of infiltrating and escaping...

Good point.  I'm not sure if I am wrong or if I am just missing what the real point of it.  Maeve getting back off the train does seem to be a real choice.  Consider though, if her asking for the information on her daughter was scripted, then presumably her getting that information was too, since Felix is clearly there as a puppet to her will.  But perhaps that's the point though?  That was her Maze?  Her getting back off was the point at which she steps off the script, or perhaps transcends the script?

I don't think Delores is a red-herring though.  I think she is conscious too.

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1 hour ago, Commodore said:

they rely on lying to the viewer to create mystery and suspense

Probably my main beef with the show. Some of the misleading editing was unnecessary.  

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1 hour ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

That makes Felix more of a player than there is any indication that he would be.  He's not that good of an actor (Felix, not the actual actor).

I agree - I was just throwing out other scenarios where it could still be Maeve working under Ford's directions. It's not like Felix had to act - he just had to give her the info. Ford could have supplied it to him without Felix even being aware of it.

4 minutes ago, Mark Antony said:

Probably my main beef with the show. Some of the misleading editing was unnecessary.  

I'd have to rewatch but it still feels like some elements of the editing were "cheats".

The fact Maeve didn't leave has me pretty certain the show wants to surprise us with what's outside the "world" complexes. Either post-apocalyptic or not on earth. It's not going to be a big part of the show - except it might thematically work with the whole "hosts inherit the new world" theme.

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To be clear, I'm not suggesting that Dolores isn't experiencing true consciousness, it's that Maeve ultimately achieves it without Ford or Arnold pushing her over the final hurdle.  That's why she got off the train, breaking the programmed intention of her leaving the park.

That's why I'm suggesting Dolores is a bit of a red herring...We're meant to focus on her, meanwhile Maeve will ultimately become the "leader" of the hosts...

@Fragile Bird - I first thought they might go with an older timeline showing how William wrangles control of Delos, but now I'm not certain they will. 

And hey, that Delos BOD, not a small group, was it?

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6 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

@Fragile Bird - I first thought they might go with an older timeline showing how William wrangles control of Delos, but now I'm not certain they will. 

Well, they didn't really explain how William pushed out Logan at all.  With that dangling thread I strongly expect Logan to be involved in Season 2, one way or another.

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1 minute ago, dmc515 said:

Well, they didn't really explain how William pushed out Logan at all.  With that dangling thread I strongly expect Logan to be involved in Season 2, one way or another.

 Nah I think it's pretty much wrapped up with William saying his dad will need someone more stable and that he's too reckless, impetuous, etc. Think we are just supposed fill in the blanks that William turns Logans dad against him. 

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5 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Well, they didn't really explain how William pushed out Logan at all.  With that dangling thread I strongly expect Logan to be involved in Season 2, one way or another.

I suspect more along the lines of older Logan, still rich but relegated into obscurity within the family, could be a player in Season 2 trying to gain control of the board in lieu of the apparent massacre of so many members...Ed Harris, if back, needs someone to play off of.  Who'd be good...? :P

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2 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

I suspect more along the lines of older Logan, still rich but relegated into obscurity within the family, could be a player in Season 2 trying to gain control of the board in lieu of the apparent massacre of so many members...Ed Harris, if back, needs someone to play off of.

That's pretty much what I had in mind - and hope for.

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4 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

I suspect more along the lines of older Logan, still rich but relegated into obscurity within the family, could be a player in Season 2 trying to gain control of the board in lieu of the apparent massacre of so many members...Ed Harris, if back, needs someone to play off of.  Who'd be good...? :P

Who else but HBO's favorite Swearing man. ;)

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1 hour ago, karaddin said:

FB I said they're the ones on the cusp, not that they had achieved it. It could still be decades but they're the ones it's working with aside from the on screen ones. Clem wasn't a routine retirement, so I see her as an exception.

Ok, gotcha.

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Excellent finale to a great show

 

I seriously hope that was a host Ford being killed because this show needs him more than anyone else. It won't be the same if he returns in flashbacks or dreams, he needs to have a proper continuous presence and influence. Ed Harris less so, we saw him take a bullet in his good arm but unless we saw him stabbed, beheaded and burned he's probably still alive.

 

One thing i'm not clear on... why is it that Ford's old drinking buddy... Wild Bill? had such basic movement and mechanics being an older model, yet none of the hosts from the 35 years ago timeline had these imperfections

Edited by dooog

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