.H.

HBO's Westworld V - These violent delights... [Spoilers]

263 posts in this topic

7 minutes ago, red snow said:

However I can't really see how this keeps the park open

I forget where I read it, but if you play around on www.discoverwestworld.com it's been updated to say they're no longer taking reservations. Along with a few other interesting things. 

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3 hours ago, Leofric said:

The only thing that makes me think he will come back is the host he had cooking under his fake family home.  Did Delores kill the real Ford or a decoy?  Or did he sacrifices himself, but create a host version of himself to hep Delores and the rest after he's gone? 

 

2 hours ago, RumHam said:

I think the line about the composers not really dying but just becoming music suggests that the real Ford died, having already uploaded himself to a host. 

Can't clear first quote on my phone, was going to say similar to this in response to it. I remembered there was something Ford said that made it seem like he viewed becoming a host as transcendence, and while I think there was more than just this line, this was the big one. The musicians became their creation and so too has he. That host in the old lab was very clearly a smoking gun, and no one else makes sense at this point. It wasn't the version that was shot though, his goodbye to Dolores and Bernard was too heartfelt - he wasn't going to be guiding things anymore, he was setting the hosts free to find themselves and their freedom/sentience.

A Ford version of Bernard also let's them go back to being true partners, which seemed to be something he was longing for.

FB - I'd noticed the bag too, but forgot it as something important left hanging. Expecting this to be yet another smoking gun. I'm just incredibly satisfied at what felt to me like a perfect balance between things being answered and plot left to develop.

Also loved Evan Rachel Woods savagery on her face at the end. Perfect.

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I wasn't a fan of the idea of other fantasy worlds, it sort of ruins the uniqueness, is the entire plant full of giant robot theme parks?  And I agree, if they have others, then unless Ford could not replicate Arnold's core code at all, why everything happening only in Westworld? I agree it seemed sort of thrown in there to give other options for spin offs and so forth.

The massacre made me think that people may have been right to say that almost everyone there including those who think they are human are really hosts, I don't see any other realistic way you can have mass slaughter and the park isn't shut down or destroyed by whatever authorities exist in the real world.

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The so called Samurai World...was it fan service? Thus the idea that Felix calls it, "complicated".  Or is it actually a bigger piece of the puzzle for what and where Westworld actually is?  For there to be another entire park, seemingly the under world training facility of it, being connected to the same of Westworld...?

And there were no humans present there...?

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10 hours ago, Corvinus said:

Stubbs did not appear in the finale. He more than likely suffered the same fate as Elsie, but I'm not 100% certain that it was death.

Also on you point about Ford and William. If the direction that the park takes is to actually be a dangerous place for humans, there would have to be laws in the real world that would allow for this park to continue to exist. And I imagine attendance will severely diminish.

Must've been an extra that looked like Stubbs to me... I thought he was a goner, but it was like a 5 second scene.  I actually kinda like him so not sad if he's still around.  About to do my rewatch before bed so I'll keep an eye out for the scene I was thinking of... my thoughts/theories are still up in the air at this point as things didn't really wrap up in any form I had anticipated, which I suppose is a good thing.  

Been a busy day so I've only read a small portion of other posts... catch up with you guys in later days when I've formed a more coherent picture of what I think is going on.  Continue :) 

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33 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

The so called Samurai World...was it fan service? Thus the idea that Felix calls it, "complicated".  Or is it actually a bigger piece of the puzzle for what and where Westworld actually is?  For there to be another entire park, seemingly the under world training facility of it, being connected to the same of Westworld...?

And there were no humans present there...?

Maeve's note with her daughter's location said she was in "Park 1" (we already knew she was in Westworld because Maeve actually saw her walk by the brothel one time, but she doesn't remember)

Felix says "it's complicated" because explaining that there are other worlds set in time periods that seem alien to Maeve because she has no knowledge of them would be complicated. Sure, Maeve's intelligence is cranked up to to maximum. But it would still be like trying to explain quantum physics to Galileo or teaching Einstein how to use Instagram. Smart as Maeve may be, there's no reason to think they programmed her with any knowledge of feudal Japan or Samurai. 

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Or it could have just been fan service...

Or its part of a bigger clue as to what, and where, Westworld actually is...

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13 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Or it could have just been fan service...

Or its part of a bigger clue as to what, and where, Westworld actually is...

I guess I didn't see the reveal of other theme worlds as a shock since it was a part of the original movie. Thinking about it a little more, I can see the argument that pretending Westworld was the whole of "the park" was a cheat/misdirection. But certainly not the worst one they pulled.

I do think in the William/Logan timeline it was just Westworld. People asked why few things seem to have advanced narrative-wise in Westworld during that time and this may well explain why. Westworld underwent only minor changes while Shogun world and Medieval World and any other number of worlds were developed. 

(Also as a Simpsons fan I can't help but think of this)

Edit: I forgot to add that as for the location, I'm still betting on Mars. I think the whole "rotate back" (episode 1) / "mainland" (episode 10) thing was to suggest the possibility of an extremely remote location like another planet and then explain it away with the suggestion that it's just a remote island. When in fact it's an island on a terraformed Mars. With the other parks probably being on other islands.

Edited by RumHam

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Yep twasn't Stubbs I thought had died... was a (sorta) lookalike leading the security forces during those scenes in the facility mayhem.  So... hmmm... odd he isn't in the episode at all.

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So did William kill logan to get control of Delos?  Dude was tied up and forced to gallop on a horse... He made it look like an accident. Or did he oust him in the real world? 

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14 minutes ago, Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II said:

So did William kill logan to get control of Delos?  Dude was tied up and forced to gallop on a horse... He made it look like an accident. Or did he oust him in the real world? 

I have a feeling that they could revisit thst next season but I'm inclined to say he didn't .  

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When the Man in Black got back to his feet and started shuffling towards Ford after Dolores beat him up, did anyone else hear the same damaged machinery sounds that we heard when Ford was having that drink with the old cowboy in the basement? You know, the sounds the cowboy made when he moved his arm or got to his feet etc. Mechanical sounds.

I could swear it was very audible, and for a few moments I was convinced that the damage inflicted by Dolores exposed the Man in Black as a host. But then it was gone when we saw him again.

Anyway, maybe my ears were tricking me, but it was very clear to me at the time.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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12 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

When the Man in Black got back to his feet and started shuffling towards Ford after Dolores beat him up, did anyone else hear the same damaged machinery sounds that we heard when Ford was having that drink with the old cowboy in the basement? You know, the sounds the cowboy made when he moved his arm or got to his feet etc. Mechanical sounds.

I could swear it was very audible, and for a few moments I was convinced that the damage inflicted by Dolores exposed the Man in Black as a host. But then it was gone when we saw him again.

Anyway, maybe my ears were tricking me, but it was very clear to me at the time.

Could it be possible that he has a bionic limb? When he drifted off during the party it appears that his arm is damaged but he's not in pain. 

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I honestly don't know what I think about that finale. It was a good episode, but maybe it just confirmed to me that the show is 'good' and not 'great'. 

It was only ever the mystery of what could be happening that was pushing the show into the great category for me. The potential for the show to be incredibly powerful and intelligent was always there. That finale however didn't quite deliver that. 

What it did do was confirm a bunch of internet theories, although the William / MiB reveal was so obvious I'm surprised they made such a big deal of it. Having said that, I was really disappointed in the MiB storyline by the end (although potentially we haven't seen the last of him). I could see something magical about him keeping going back to see Delores and eventually becoming hearbroken she forgets him. If it is that he simply became cold and heartless and decided to just buy the park and 'beat it' then that is a far less satisfying idea than him searching for a way to free Delores from her robot prison.

The rest of it was 'fine', the escape was enjoyable if again completely unbelievable. Maeve being not quite as self determining as she thought was for me the best bit. 

The show is at its best when its attempting to answer big questions about consciousness, and at its worst when it gives cheap answers. There was a bit of a mix of those things this season so it won't be going on my classics list just yet.

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Something I forgot to mention, that maybe you all caught but said nothing about.  When you do your re-watches, keep in mind that every scene between Dolores and 'Bernard' is actually with Arnold, until the very end, when Ford brings Bernard in to meet with Dolores, telling Dolores he made sure they never met so that she wasn't - I forget now what word he used, was it confused?  As I've rewatched episodes I was trying to determine in my mind which episodes were from the past and which were in the present, because it seemed like Bernard was doing things behind Ford's back.  Of course, he wasn't - it was Arnold doing things behind Ford's back.

Edited by Fragile Bird

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And btw, for all you folks who so grandly think everyone figured out the timelines...Sunday night at dinner I was talking to my friends about Westworld and asked whether they thought there were just two timelines or if there were three. They looked blankly at me and squeaked 'two timelines???'  Then someone else who has not seen the series yet asked that I say no more since they did not want to be spoiled.  I never had the chance to ask if they believed William = the MiB.

We all discuss this stuff on the internet.  A lot of people don't.

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1 hour ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I honestly don't know what I think about that finale. It was a good episode, but maybe it just confirmed to me that the show is 'good' and not 'great'. 

It was only ever the mystery of what could be happening that was pushing the show into the great category for me. The potential for the show to be incredibly powerful and intelligent was always there. That finale however didn't quite deliver that. 

What it did do was confirm a bunch of internet theories, although the William / MiB reveal was so obvious I'm surprised they made such a big deal of it. Having said that, I was really disappointed in the MiB storyline by the end (although potentially we haven't seen the last of him). I could see something magical about him keeping going back to see Delores and eventually becoming hearbroken she forgets him. If it is that he simply became cold and heartless and decided to just buy the park and 'beat it' then that is a far less satisfying idea than him searching for a way to free Delores from her robot prison.

The rest of it was 'fine', the escape was enjoyable if again completely unbelievable. Maeve being not quite as self determining as she thought was for me the best bit. 

The show is at its best when its attempting to answer big questions about consciousness, and at its worst when it gives cheap answers. There was a bit of a mix of those things this season so it won't be going on my classics list just yet.

Agree fully with the shallow feeling left with the reveal about the Man in Black's motivations. I too thought they would go the route of him gradually being heartbroken by repeated loops of Dolores not remembering him. And that he would have displayed greater emotion at her finally remembering him in the end. But the route they went with him in the end was disappointing.

It is kind of reflected in the interview they did with Ed Harris, where he says that he himself still doesn't entirely understand the Man in Black's motivation. And that is the actor who has to bring the character to life.

Kind of says it all, in my view.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Agree fully with the shallow feeling left with the reveal about the Man in Black's motivations. I too thought they would go the route of him gradually being heartbroken by repeated loops of Dolores not remembering him. And that he would have displayed greater emotion at her finally remembering him in the end. But the route they went with him in the end was disappointing.

It is kind of reflected in the interview they did with Ed Harris, where he says that he himself still doesn't entirely understand the Man in Black's motivation. And that is the actor who has to bring the character to life.

Kind of says it all, in my view.

I also thought they could have painted his descent in a way that was more complicated. As it is, it's perfectly plausible he did do some of the unspeakable things that were hinted at in episode one. Which makes him a far less interesting character and simply a sadistic villain.

I think it's a great show but I do wonder if a lot of the depth requires extraction from the viewers point moreso than the creators. A bit like with season one of True Detective where they intentionally left gaps for us to fill that were never truly resolved or developed in the show. For example the show's treatment of free will is actually fascinating if you stop and think about it. Maeve show's independence by not following Ford's program but she is still following her program by wanting to find her child. Were the two renegades Maeve used actually free if she programmed them so they couldn't leave? I don't feel like Delores showed any form of free will in the finale - she merely repeated her ability to kill her creators. The writers are clearly peppering the show with these questions but it remains to be seen whether they will tackle them head on. I hope they do.

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16 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

And the Host emerging from the skin-coating dip is female - a new Dolores?

 

That was Maeve, if you remember from a previous episode they said she had to be built differently in order to be able to leave the park, that's why we get the scene where her spine and skull are being laid out in order. I believe they said there is an explosive in all hosts spines that goes off if they leave the park.

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