HBO's Westworld V - These violent delights... [Spoilers]

[Ramsay B.]

 

54 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Agree fully with the shallow feeling left with the reveal about the Man in Black's motivations. I too thought they would go the route of him gradually being heartbroken by repeated loops of Dolores not remembering him. And that he would have displayed greater emotion at her finally remembering him in the end. But the route they went with him in the end was disappointing.

It is kind of reflected in the interview they did with Ed Harris, where he says that he himself still doesn't entirely understand the Man in Black's motivation. And that is the actor who has to bring the character to life.

Kind of says it all, in my view.

I wasn't disappointed at all with the MiB storyline. I felt the scene when he finally sees Dolores back in town again was pretty impactful, and that if he did get emotional when Dolores remembered him then it wouldn't have fit with who he turned into. Dude got pretty twisted over the years.

I think in the end he just didn't understand his own obsessive motivations. No matter how many times Ford and other hosts told him the maze wasn't for him he just ignored it and kept going. The hosts seem to go mad because of all the suffering they endure, then you have the MiB going mad to basically feel something real.

And the timeline stuff was pretty obvious to us nerds who pick everything apart, but all my friends and family who watch and don't read up on this stuff had no clue about it until the last episode.

[DaveSumm]

One thing they didn't really emphasise with MiB and Dolores was a bit of an irony, William felt something was going on with Dolores and thought she might be conscious and cared for her as a result. When he saw her back on her loop he realised Logan was right, that she was just a host but, it sparked his interest in what she was looking for; Arnold's grand plan, the centre of the maze.

I turns out that that grand plan was her consciousness, so in a way, the closest he ever came to finding the centre of the maze was when he was William. 

What are we to make of Dolores saying "whose is this voice I've been hearing all along"? Of course it transpires that it's her, that her mind is bicameral, that she can internalise thoughts and ask herself questions. But I wondered whether that meant her dreams with Arnold were actually present day dreams where she was conversing with herself? Sort of a twist back again, from Bernard to Arnold to Dolores. Or has she ever been seen talking to herself, or to anyone that leaves a dangling mystery?

Also, as cool as it looks to have everything backstage be made of glass, you've gotta wonder how many plot holes would disappear if they were just rooms. The amount of dodgy goings on that took place where people seemed utterly unconcerned that anyone could walk by at any minute......that guy with the lube? Wtf? 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Ok so one thing I wonder about the Dolores / William thing: When MiB captures her and beats her, she says that her true love is coming to get her, that he is looking for her. She is referring to William, in fact she remembers William. 

So firstly, how come she remembered William at this point, was it the trauma of the beating, or was it something else, was it the narrative that Ford had implanted (which had striking similarities with someone searching for her and rescuing her) and was it perhaps revealed to her somehow subconciously to help her in that situation. 

But yeah I think that the MiB storyline was 85% great but just sort of fell flat at the end, with no great revelation for him, nothing that made his motivation that compelling. It could have been better. But hopefully he will be back, hard to imagine where the story goes if the whole board is dead.

[Fez]

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Agree fully with the shallow feeling left with the reveal about the Man in Black's motivations. I too thought they would go the route of him gradually being heartbroken by repeated loops of Dolores not remembering him. And that he would have displayed greater emotion at her finally remembering him in the end. But the route they went with him in the end was disappointing.

It is kind of reflected in the interview they did with Ed Harris, where he says that he himself still doesn't entirely understand the Man in Black's motivation. And that is the actor who has to bring the character to life.

Kind of says it all, in my view.

Maybe it was my imagination, but Ed Harris seemed far more invested in the character once he was in a tuxedo. The entire season he was doing a somewhat generic "grizzled, bitter cowboy" impression, whereas once he was in the tux he seemed a much more real character. He didn't have many lines at that point, but just the way he walked around and reacted to people and things; it seemed a lot better. 

[red snow]

57 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Ok so one thing I wonder about the Dolores / William thing: When MiB captures her and beats her, she says that her true love is coming to get her, that he is looking for her. She is referring to William, in fact she remembers William. 

So firstly, how come she remembered William at this point, was it the trauma of the beating, or was it something else, was it the narrative that Ford had implanted (which had striking similarities with someone searching for her and rescuing her) and was it perhaps revealed to her somehow subconciously to help her in that situation. 

But yeah I think that the MiB storyline was 85% great but just sort of fell flat at the end, with no great revelation for him, nothing that made his motivation that compelling. It could have been better. But hopefully he will be back, hard to imagine where the story goes if the whole board is dead.

I looked at it as Delores not really being able to distinguish memory from current events. She thought the events with William had been happening concurrently with her most recent off-reservation wanderings. In a sense we watched the season from Delores' viewpoint and that allows for some justification of the storytelling editing beyond trying to deliver a twist. Although it's a meta version as obviously she couldn't have been privy to events occurring with Willaim when she wasn't present.

51 minutes ago, Fez said:

Maybe it was my imagination, but Ed Harris seemed far more invested in the character once he was in a tuxedo. The entire season he was doing a somewhat generic "grizzled, bitter cowboy" impression, whereas once he was in the tux he seemed a much more real character. He didn't have many lines at that point, but just the way he walked around and reacted to people and things; it seemed a lot better. 

It may be that Harris decided the character was a real person when not in gaming mode? That makes a certain amount of sense and adds some complexity to the character given he thinks he is real in the game but in actual fact is more real outside of it. He also appeared happier when not in game mode despite his protests within the game. That's some nice work by the actor if he wasn't instructed to do so.

[dbunting]

Ok, I wasn't a fan of multiple time lines, still not, but it was done reasonably well. And to be honest when MiB was first telling Delores his story he made his comment about William not knowing something and I was like AHA!!! MiB is Logan!!! Then to realize quickly, no, he isn't...

Should have been more obvious to me that Ford was repeating the original host massacre with a new board massacre, just didn't want to see it I think. It was clear shortly into the finale how it would unfold. I was kinda like Bernard and the door before that. Also with the Maeve thing, Ford needed her and others to create enough chaos in the control rooms so they wouldn't be able to see the cold storage hosts all being activated. So he sets up Maeve with a new story and she does all the work for him, assuming she is doing it on her own and all the while it was Fords' story again.

I like how they made it clear that there are multiple parks, the note Maeve had said Park 1, and also the Japanese looking park with Samuri's. Makes sense business wise to have a park for different cultures so you can get all the money.

Lastly, I assume all humans died in that last scene, MiB included, afterall MiB finally got to what he was looking for, a point where the hosts can actually fight back, his game was over at that point.

[RumHam]

I wonder what Ford was building for his new narrative. He dug up the old town, but I also seem to remember he was building something and opted to stop at Pariah or one of the other towns rather than destroy the town.

[Fragile Bird]

6 hours ago, red snow said:

I think it's a great show but I do wonder if a lot of the depth requires extraction from the viewers point moreso than the creators. A bit like with season one of True Detective where they intentionally left gaps for us to fill that were never truly resolved or developed in the show. For example the show's treatment of free will is actually fascinating if you stop and think about it. Maeve show's independence by not following Ford's program but she is still following her program by wanting to find her child. Were the two renegades Maeve used actually free if she programmed them so they couldn't leave? I don't feel like Delores showed any form of free will in the finale - she merely repeated her ability to kill her creators. The writers are clearly peppering the show with these questions but it remains to be seen whether they will tackle them head on. I hope they do.

Do you remember the chart Arnold showed Dolores? The first step for the Hosts is Memory, the middle step before achieving Consciousness is Improvisation.  It seems Maeve is there, I think.

6 hours ago, dbunting said:

That was Maeve, if you remember from a previous episode they said she had to be built differently in order to be able to leave the park, that's why we get the scene where her spine and skull are being laid out in order. I believe they said there is an explosive in all hosts spines that goes off if they leave the park.

Lol, thank-you, for the 3rd time.

Maeve and Hector did not leave the park, Maeve burnt down the tent they were in.

[Cas Stark]

It's odd to love the show and still be underwhelmed and disappointed.  I agree that Dolores 'awakening' was a little bit too subtle.  I still do not find William turning into a nut job ruthless gamer, apparently inside and outside the park as being very believable.  Nor his obsession with the maze.  

Ford may come back, I hope so.

I still don't see how they will resolve mass slaughter that doesn't cause the park to be totally shut and all hosts incinerated, except of course evil corp and gov would keep a couple to study the technology....LOL.

[Fragile Bird]

Hmmm...

I am watching the episode again, and when the security group finally sees Armistice pushing the technician through the plate glass, the head security honcho says:

"Dispatch QA teams to the Gala, now. Then, Search and Destroy, inside the facility."

But the red lights come on, the SECURITY LOCKDOWN light flashes and the doors close.

They never have a chance to get the message out.

Yet a security team goes out, one so incompetent that dozens of men can't kill or destroy Hector and Armistice, and Felix really doesn't seem that scared. So I'm pretty sure now they are Hosts that other Hosts can't recognize as Hosts, like the guy Clementine 'killed'.

And of course, a QA team never goes out to the Gala.

Also...I see that after Maeve gets off the train, the train does in fact leave the station, then the lights go dark. Maybe the only things in the bag were the clothing Maeve changed out of and the gun.  And maybe some ID and some money?  Abernathy definitely was not on the train, since he was gone by the time Sizemore got down there.  He may be in the safest spot in the whole damn facility.

Someone asked why there were no humans in Samurai World, but I'm pretty sure the trainer in the room with the two Samurai fighting was a human.

[TheKitttenGuard]

On the massacre and reopen the park.

The movie ended with many of the humans killed and it was reopen.

There could be an internal cover up of the matter. It was the board and could be kept internally.  Shutting down will cost them lots and lots of money. That could be more important than the deaths of business associates.

 There is also a possibility that the new danger will actually have some appeal to many utterly bored with their lives (though the family-friendly aspect it hinted in the beginning will be done).

[red snow]

2 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

Do you remember the chart Arnold showed Dolores? The first step for the Hosts is Memory, the middle step before achieving Consciousness is Improvisation.  It seems Maeve is there, I think.

Lol, thank-you, for the 3rd time.

Maeve and Hector did not leave the park, Maeve burnt down the tent they were in.

Good catch about the steps to consciousness. They also said tragedy worked best too. That and they have to go through hell before they are ready. Maeve still seems ahead of the curve in comparison to Delores.

I wonder if Ford built some rollback into Maeve? Her being able to control/adjust other hosts seems potentially too powerful unless it doesn't work on hosts outside of "westworld".

I also wonder if we'll get any semi-awakened hosts actually giving a shit about the rest of their kind? So far they seem to not care less and treat them like tools in a way that's worryingly similar to the way humans treat them. I'm hoping this will become Bernard's role in season 2 - protector of the hosts.

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

I still don't see how they will resolve mass slaughter that doesn't cause the park to be totally shut and all hosts incinerated, except of course evil corp and gov would keep a couple to study the technology....LOL.

We didn't see any mass-slaughter (although it was heavily implied more were killed I only saw one person shot through the back). That and maybe Delores just thought she was killing everyone else? That's the problem when you can't trust the camera anymore.

I think we'll maybe see Bernard do something to rescue the guests. With Bernard in the role I just suggested - with his knowledge and perhaps an upgrade from Ford (as a parting gift) he may be able to at least stop the horde. Delores can be spared by Bernard "proving" she was programmed by Arnold to commit suicide. William will protect her because she can kill and because it maybe reawakens a part of himself the believed dead.

The guests being slaughtered would otherwise simply result in closure. Maybe they will call season 2 "Samurai World"...

[Cas Stark]

Well, we saw at least two murders by Hector and co, assuming they were really human which I'm no longer sure of, we saw a gun battle that presumably killed some of the security guys, Ford was shot, and last we saw a group of what looked like the weird hybrid robot monsters coming over the ridge...so how that is not going to end in at best several dead Delos board members and other humans, I don't see.

Ugh.  Samuri World, I feel this needlessly complicates the storyline.  No wonder HBO shut them down to retool.  I don't see what this adds to the story they're telling.  What is Samuri World going to give us except several ethnic/racial/historical minefields for the show to navigate.  

[Knight of Ashes]

So I guess Dolores doesn't recognize humans when they age.

Also, not clear on Felix's reason for telling Maeve where her daughter is if she was programmed to escape.

[Astromech]

2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Well, we saw at least two murders by Hector and co, assuming they were really human which I'm no longer sure of, we saw a gun battle that presumably killed some of the security guys, Ford was shot, and last we saw a group of what looked like the weird hybrid robot monsters coming over the ridge...so how that is not going to end in at best several dead Delos board members and other humans, I don't see.

Ugh.  Samuri World, I feel this needlessly complicates the storyline.  No wonder HBO shut them down to retool.  I don't see what this adds to the story they're telling.  What is Samuri World going to give us except several ethnic/racial/historical minefields for the show to navigate.  

If you visit the discover westworld site now, everything is on the fritz. Ask Aeden about Hector and Armistice

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Well, we saw at least two murders by Hector and co, assuming they were really human which I'm no longer sure of, we saw a gun battle that presumably killed some of the security guys, Ford was shot, and last we saw a group of what looked like the weird hybrid robot monsters coming over the ridge...so how that is not going to end in at best several dead Delos board members and other humans, I don't see.

Ugh.  Samuri World, I feel this needlessly complicates the storyline.  No wonder HBO shut them down to retool.  I don't see what this adds to the story they're telling.  What is Samuri World going to give us except several ethnic/racial/historical minefields for the show to navigate.  

Does Samurai World complicate it? Seeing Maeve searching for her daughter through various parks could be interesting. 

[HexMachina]

Sblie. Love it.

[DMC]

2 hours ago, Knight of Ashes said:

Also, not clear on Felix's reason for telling Maeve where her daughter is if she was programmed to escape.

I think the puppy-dog characterization of Felix sufficiently answers that query.  And, hey, he was right.  I was satisfied with Maeve making the choice to stay, overriding her programming.

I agree w/ @Cas Stark on how both the new (apparent) samurai and the (again, apparent) massacre of the board creates critical problems to the narrative going forward.  It seems as if Nolan has written himself into a corner.  However, I do not agree that the "delay" in Season 2 represents HBO benching him/the show and any way.  Further, Nolan has earned my trust in figuring out his own rubik's cube, albeit the Maeve storyline demonstrates he's apt to take shortcuts to a certain extent.  But, as long as they* keep delivering on intriguing plot development and growth of the characters (specifically IRT our rag-tag Wild Bunch hosts) like in the finale, I'm fine with some shortcuts.  In more Nolan-y terms, as long as their "turn" is compelling enough for me to be sold on the prestige, we cool. 

*Need to give his wife equal credit so I can stop being sexist.

[Jaxom 1974]

7 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

Do you remember the chart Arnold showed Dolores? The first step for the Hosts is Memory, the middle step before achieving Consciousness is Improvisation.  It seems Maeve is there, I think.

 

It wasn't just Maeve, it was also Armistice. Witness her solution to continue fighting after the credits.  That likely wasn't in any programming. 

Though I think Maeve went further...but that's just my opinion...

[RumHam]

1 hour ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

It wasn't just Maeve, it was also Armistice. Witness her solution to continue fighting after the credits.  That likely wasn't in any programming. 

I agree her code probably doesn't include anything explicitly telling her to cut off her arm in such a situation. But there is such a thing as "emergent behavior" that I wouldn't qualify as "sentience/consciousness/awakening." Just unexpected results of millions of lines of code interacting unexpectedly. Could go either way, but I wouldn't take that self amputation as evidence that she was "awakened."

Edit: especially if Maeve/Felix bumped up her intelligence, it would make sense for her to figure that out without necessarily being "awakened."