HBO's Westworld V - These violent delights... [Spoilers]

[Fragile Bird]

I want to point out that I was partly right in the last thread, when I said I thought the Maze was a physical place, and I bet it centered on the church shown in Dolores' memories, and what if there was an elevator in the church that went down to the old levels...

The Maze is actually the toy, representing the internal search for self, but when Ford, Bernard and Dolores are down in the old lab, Dolores talks about it being the center of the maze. 

Neat that the elevator comes up in the confessional box...

[Fragile Bird]

Did you notice in the graveyard scene, every single grave has a bell on it?

There's this urban myth that people for hundreds of years were being buried alive, so that there was a demand for coffins with bells attached to strings that could be pulled from inside the coffin, in case you were buried alive. There are drawings of such coffin designs, though I don't know if any were actually made.

Since presumably the Hosts never die, is this an in-joke? Or are there Hosts in the coffins? We know that Dolores' coffin does not have a body in it.  Or.....does it? *makes spooky wooooooo sound*

[RumHam]

16 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

Did you notice in the graveyard scene, every single grave has a bell on it?

There's this urban myth that people for hundreds of years were being buried alive, so that there was a demand for coffins with bells attached to strings that could be pulled from inside the coffin, in case you were buried alive. There are drawings of such coffin designs, though I don't know if any were actually made.

Since presumably the Hosts never die, is this an in-joke? Or are there Hosts in the coffins? We know that Dolores' coffin does not have a body in it.  Or.....does it? *makes spooky wooooooo sound*

I'd assume it's either a misguided attempt at a touch of  historical accuracy or one of Ford's anachronisms meant to highlight the idea that unlike humans, the hosts can never really stay dead. I doubt very much that there are actual older models of the original hosts buried there.

You do have to wonder where the host's "brains" are, considering Bernard can shoot a bullet through his cranium and Maeve can burn herself to oblivion without either of them missing a beat once they were repaired (rebuilt?) So can they ever really die?  

[Fragile Bird]

Felix, when he looks to repair Bernard, says something about the bullet skimming the cranial cortex, so he should be ok, so the bullet did not apparently go through his 'brain'.  The angle at which he aimed the gun must have been scripted by Ford, so as not to do damage.

Presumably Maeve and Hector had all their memories downloaded into their new bodies and brains. I assume everything a Host does is constantly being backed up.

I don't think Felix could have repaired a brain damaged Bernard, Bernard's records would have been top secret.

[karaddin]

So just to continue with my own pet theory, if the guards that came after Maeve and co WERE human, their reluctance to shoot could be explained by their lives not being worth a whole lot while the hosts are extremely valuable. They're using real weapons, not Westworld weapons, so perhaps much more damaging to the hosts and much more likely to destroy them. Hardly definitive, but just another detail that reinforces how I view the world of the story.

[Guest]

Pardon my ignorance, but since it's reported that Jeffrey Wright is back for S2 are we to assume that's for Arnold flashbacks or is he going to be a resurrected host?

[Ser Quork]

5 hours ago, dmc515 said:

I think the puppy-dog characterization of Felix sufficiently answers that query.  And, hey, he was right.  I was satisfied with Maeve making the choice to stay, overriding her programming.

I agree w/ @Cas Stark on how both the new (apparent) samurai and the (again, apparent) massacre of the board creates critical problems to the narrative going forward.  It seems as if Nolan has written himself into a corner.  However, I do not agree that the "delay" in Season 2 represents HBO benching him/the show and any way.  Further, Nolan has earned my trust in figuring out his own rubik's cube, albeit the Maeve storyline demonstrates he's apt to take shortcuts to a certain extent.  But, as long as they* keep delivering on intriguing plot development and growth of the characters (specifically IRT our rag-tag Wild Bunch hosts) like in the finale, I'm fine with some shortcuts.  In more Nolan-y terms, as long as their "turn" is compelling enough for me to be sold on the prestige, we cool. 

*Need to give his wife equal credit so I can stop being sexist.

Was it Maeve's choice to stay?  It looked to me that she's reverting to her programming, if a previous version.

Earlier she says that the girl wasn't her child and she's leaving, but then her previous program pulls her back.  I wouldn't be surprised if that were either a) scripted; or b ) part of her cornerstone programming she can't overcome.

I suspected it was all part of Ford's new narrative so I'm pleased with the outcome.  Needless to say, I'm convinced his killing by Dolores was part of that narrative and that it's still running.

I didn't see the host-under-construction in the basement so my guess is that was a Ford host we saw shot.

I'm still unconvinced by the motivation for William's transition to MiB, but I enjoyed the episode immensely in spite of that.

[DMC]

9 minutes ago, Ser Quork said:

Was it Maeve's choice to stay?  It looked to me that she's reverting to her programming, if a previous version.

Earlier she says that the girl wasn't her child and she's leaving, but then her previous program pulls her back.  I wouldn't be surprised if that were either a) scripted; or b ) part of her cornerstone programming she can't overcome.

Well, that was my interpretation of it - but it's certainly an open question.  In the basement room where they find Bernard, the super ipad appears to have "mainland infiltration" as her ultimate agenda when Felix shows it to her.

11 minutes ago, Ser Quork said:

Needless to say, I'm convinced his killing by Dolores was part of that narrative and that it's still running.

I didn't see the host-under-construction in the basement so my guess is that was a Ford host we saw shot.

Agree with the former and hoping for the latter.

[red snow]

22 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Well, that was my interpretation of it - but it's certainly an open question.  In the basement room where they find Bernard, the super ipad appears to have "mainland infiltration" as her ultimate agenda when Felix shows it to her.

Agree with the former and hoping for the latter.

This is what I was saying about whether the show is deep or is relying for viewers to create depth. I think it's fascinating that Maeve is probably breaking her new programming by sticking to her original programming. It's playing more with the concept of free will and whether it actually exists for anything. We think we have free will but many believe our choices are ultimately always going to be the result of our brain being wired through genetics, experience and environment. In Maeve's case that love of her child is at her core and over-rides the program Ford had for her. So in a sense that makes her free as the only control people have over Maeve is probably now via the child. You can't make her do something that goes against that.

I'm sure many parents don't think there's any choice in loving their kids - it just is. I also think they probably don't mind having no choice when it comes to their child's well being. I think there's a good reason why Bernard and Maeve have bedrock memories involving children as it's one of the main drives in humans - you could probably extend it to most animals where child rearing is essentially to the species' survival.

 

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, red snow said:

I think there's a good reason why Bernard and Maeve have bedrock memories involving children as it's one of the main drives in humans - you could probably extend it to most animals where child rearing is essentially to the species' survival.

Agreed - they have done a great job establishing the theoretical underpinnings of how the "cornerstone" memories relates to the complexities of consciousness, and then managing to logically apply it to the narrative.  It's my favorite part of the show and indeed quite fascinating.

[Mark Antony]

On 12/5/2016 at 2:11 PM, Cas Stark said:

I still think they would have been better to keep Sylvester out of the Maeve storyline and just have Felix by a sympathetic human who helps her, but I loved Thandie and love the characters.  

Agreed. Sylvesters character wasn't needed. 

4 hours ago, Triskan said:

Pardon my ignorance, but since it's reported that Jeffrey Wright is back for S2 are we to assume that's for Arnold flashbacks or is he going to be a resurrected host?

Why not just as Bernard? 

[red snow]

Just saw this sneek preview trailer for season 2. It looks like they are giving a bit too much away by fully revealing what Ford's "masterplan" is and what the world looks like outside of the "westworld" park. It's going to get messy once the original models get out

What was Hopkins thinking? I think the chances of him returning for season 2 have just increased if that's the kind of role he's been hoping for.

 

[HexMachina]

3 hours ago, Ser Quork said:

Was it Maeve's choice to stay?  It looked to me that she's reverting to her programming, if a previous version.

Earlier she says that the girl wasn't her child and she's leaving, but then her previous program pulls her back.  I wouldn't be surprised if that were either a) scripted; or b ) part of her cornerstone programming she can't overcome.

I suspected it was all part of Ford's new narrative so I'm pleased with the outcome.  Needless to say, I'm convinced his killing by Dolores was part of that narrative and that it's still running.

I didn't see the host-under-construction in the basement so my guess is that was a Ford host we saw shot.

I'm still unconvinced by the motivation for William's transition to MiB, but I enjoyed the episode immensely in spite of that.

I very much do think it was Maeve's choice to stay. I believe had she done what Ford wanted her to, she would have left the park. It was stuff Ford didn't plan (how compassionate Felix was, his locating her daughter, Maeve sitting opposite a child) which brought her to true consciousness that enabled her to break the narrative and go back.

As for Delores killing Ford, I agree that it was part of his new narrative, but the act itself, and the stuff that follows, that is all her, she is exercising her own free will to do that.

Here is a good interview with Joy and Nolan where they talk about the finale (including Elsie and Stubbs' absence). 

[Fragile Bird]

1 hour ago, red snow said:

Just saw this sneek preview trailer for season 2. It looks like they are giving a bit too much away by fully revealing what Ford's "masterplan" is and what the world looks like outside of the "westworld" park. It's going to get messy once the original models get out

What was Hopkins thinking? I think the chances of him returning for season 2 have just increased if that's the kind of role he's been hoping for.

 

Lol....Forgive Me is a well used line, isn't it?

[Ded As Ned]

I'm slow.... I was about to point out the bad link. 

[Ser Quork]

10 hours ago, red snow said:

This is what I was saying about whether the show is deep or is relying for viewers to create depth. I think it's fascinating that Maeve is probably breaking her new programming by sticking to her original programming. It's playing more with the concept of free will and whether it actually exists for anything. We think we have free will but many believe our choices are ultimately always going to be the result of our brain being wired through genetics, experience and environment. In Maeve's case that love of her child is at her core and over-rides the program Ford had for her. So in a sense that makes her free as the only control people have over Maeve is probably now via the child. You can't make her do something that goes against that.

I'm sure many parents don't think there's any choice in loving their kids - it just is. I also think they probably don't mind having no choice when it comes to their child's well being. I think there's a good reason why Bernard and Maeve have bedrock memories involving children as it's one of the main drives in humans - you could probably extend it to most animals where child rearing is essentially to the species' survival.

 

Exactly.

I like the parallel you've drawn between the human parental experience (as a generalisation) and Maeve, especially because it is fundamentally different as hers has no basis in biology / continuation of the species as she is a construct and those memories / feelings about her "daughter" are also entirely constructs that she has chosen (it seems) to follow/adopt.  It is fascinating.  I'll be really interested to see how they develop this.

[Fragile Bird]

I don't think we know yet if Maeve is breaking with her new storyline yet. It's just speculation right now. Ford told Bernard that there's a lot more suffering to go through before consciousness is achieved, so I doubt she's ready for the outside world yet.

And wait (I thought we had a facepalm emo...) 

I was puzzling over why Maeve set Hector and herself on fire,  I mean, Hosts 'feel' pain. What a way to go.  I just realized it meant Sylvester could then rebuild them without the explosive charge in their spines...

So Hector must have been a bit taken aback when he found out he was not going on the elevator with her.  But it is an important fact, 2 Hosts who can get out without exploding.

[Fragile Bird]

A little bit of theorizing, first spotted by Werthead.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/robinedds/the-maze-isnt-meant-for-you?utm_term=.vsrr103Qro#.wm67dN8p73

[Jaxom 1974]

3 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

A little bit of theorizing, first spotted by Werthead.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/robinedds/the-maze-isnt-meant-for-you?utm_term=.vsrr103Qro#.wm67dN8p73

I read that earlier today...it's almost too meta...too conincidental...but I dont think they're trying to pull anything here...

[Fez]

24 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

A little bit of theorizing, first spotted by Werthead.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/robinedds/the-maze-isnt-meant-for-you?utm_term=.vsrr103Qro#.wm67dN8p73

I don't get what the point of that would be though. The photo isn't a stock photo in the show, so what would be the point of creating a fake stock photo photographer to supply the photo?

Seems like just a coincidence to me, and not even a particularly massive one. Stock photo photographers make their living on volume, not quality, and this guy probably has a huge number of photo that look vaguely like imagery from any number of shows.