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Was Serenei of Lys the last Rogare?


Lord Varys

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It just struck my mind that this is actually a possibility. Has anybody ever asked George about that? We know that Lysandro, Drazenko, and Lysaro Rogare were killed (and that Larra eventually died in 145 AC), but Lysandro's younger son Moredo yet lived, and could have had offspring.

Hell, considering that Serenei was supposedly much older than Aegon IV she could even have been Larra's sister or aunt, making the whole affair even weirder than it already is.

Any thoughts on that thing?

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I don't give much credit to the rumours of Serenei of Lys being and old woman who kept her beauty with dark arts. She gave birth to Shiera Seastar in the last years of Aegon's reign (when he was around 46), something a "much older woman" could have not done.

But I could see Serenei being a daughter of Moredo, and in fact, it would make sense. After Moredo led a host against Lys, and presumably was killed or made prisoner, a daughter of him would look for shelter with the last members of her family. Aegon would be her first cousin, so having her as paramount would also be in line with the Taragaryen incestuous practices.

 

I like the idea. However, the main argument against Serenei being a Rogere is that one would expect such a think to be mentioned in the world book. The paramounts of Aegon IV are featured only a few pages after the Rogare family is described. Referring to the Rogares as "an ancient but impoverished line" would not make much sense.

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7 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I don't give much credit to the rumours of Serenei of Lys being and old woman who kept her beauty with dark arts. She gave birth to Shiera Seastar in the last years of Aegon's reign (when he was around 46), something a "much older woman" could have not done.

Unless magic cannot not only preserve your beauty but also your fertility. Not to mention that other spells might help with getting pregnant. Look how late Visenys conceived Maegor or how Maegor finally got women pregnant after he had married Tyanna, a confirmed sorceress.

Thus I think there might be a chance that she is her sixties or seventies or so.

7 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

But I could see Serenei being a daughter of Moredo, and in fact, it would make sense. After Moredo led a host against Lys, and presumably was killed or made prisoner, a daughter of him would look for shelter with the last members of her family. Aegon would be her first cousin, so having her as paramount would also be in line with the Targaryen incestuous practices.

I like the idea. However, the main argument against Serenei being a Rogere is that one would expect such a think to be mentioned in the world book. The paramounts of Aegon IV are featured only a few pages after the Rogare family is described. Referring to the Rogares as "an ancient but impoverished line" would not make much sense.

You have a point there, but the explanation for that might be that Ran/Linda did not ask George for additional information on Serenei (we only get written down there what we already know about her from other sources) so they might simply not have known that George has by now a clear picture who she actually was.

We know the detailed accounts basically stretch from the reign of Viserys I to the end of the Regency of Aegon III and the history of the Rogare family might not be over in that story.

And if we are seeing Shiera ever in the main series or the Dunk & Egg tales her ancestry might be discussed, too. There is something strange going on there with Lord Jon Hightower bringing Serenei to court.

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On 12/6/2016 at 0:48 AM, Lord Varys said:

It just struck my mind that this is actually a possibility. Has anybody ever asked George about that?

Great thought - my headcanon for a while has been that Serenei was a Rogare. I don't believe anybody has (there's a lack of asked historical questions, imo) & if I ever had the chance, it would be towards the top of my list. I also wonder if the Rogares (however distantly) descended from Valyrian dragonlords, post-Doom riders there, &/or pre-Conquest Dragonstone Targaryens for their ancient (& so seen as exalted) lineage, perhaps working into their wealth & power.

On 12/6/2016 at 0:48 AM, Lord Varys said:

We know that Lysandro, Drazenko, and Lysaro Rogare were killed (and that Larra eventually died in 145 AC), but Lysandro's younger son Moredo yet lived, and could have had offspring.

When exactly do you think that Lysandro & Drazenko died & what was the nature/s of their deaths? Sometime between 129-134AC ... I'd guess by the end of 133AC given Aliandra's interactions with Oakenfist (I'm assuming Drazenko wasn't still alive during such, but it's possible) &/or machinations for Lysaro to expand into Westerosi politics through Viserys (particularly as the prince could only begin to consummate a marriage to Larra c.134AC). I'd also guess not until after Maiden's Day (May?) of 130AC for Aliandra to succeed Qoren for some time (perhaps also for her to be free of her consort to encourage her men to raid the Dornish Marches, likely leading to Caron's resignation from the Regency in 132AC), & especially for Lysandro to steer Lys through the break-up of the Triarchy (I think he was who assassinated Sharako Lohare over the affections of Johanna Swann - who effectively ruled Lys after Lysandro's death &/or during Lysaro's time in KL - plus for custody of Viserys, then he used the wealth & power of the family Bank to help secede from the Triarchy & seize power as Lys' ruler. As a sidenote, this is the catalyst for Racallio Ryndoon taking much of Tyrosh's remaining naval strength to set himself up as a pirate-king in the Stepstones). So I'd guess late 131-early 132. I'm less certain about the manner of the brothers' death ... Assassination (ordered together or separately, by who, & why not take out Lysaro at least too?) &/or battle involving Lys & Dorne (presumably on the same side, but who knows) ...

Anyway yes, Moredo is the most likely candidate for Serenei to be descended from, but I think all of them are possible - even Larra. Through Lysandro or Lysaro with the Black Swann would be especially interesting ...

On 12/6/2016 at 0:48 AM, Lord Varys said:

Hell, considering that Serenei was supposedly much older than Aegon IV she could even have been Larra's sister or aunt, making the whole affair even weirder than it already is.

I think that was simply anti-foreigner sentiment we see with the likes of Larra herself (it was obviously a catalyst for her return to Lys), Serala of Myr (who imo likely only informed her husband of how a Myrish-model could greatly improve Duskendale, though there's some interesting tinfoil I'm sure you're aware of involving say her & Aerys particularly), Tyanna of Pentos, Mysaria, & later Shiera (given Serenei as her mother, but her own even more other-worldly beauty too) herself. Of course Tyanna certainly was into magic (reviving/resurrecting Maegor, which I think - perhaps tied into his likely magic-influenced conception - was what caused his offspring problems, not her poisoning his other wives) & like Mysaria (her peers also being jealous of her) had added the added stigmas for being the Mistress of Whisperers), so Serenei is a possibility (though I think unlikely at best) given the rumours surrounding her (though interestingly only from the SSM & not TWoIaF - interesting to see if F&B has anything to say on the matter). Then again, Shiera was only ~30 when Egg told Dunk about the blood-bathing = retaining youth/beauty story & who knows how long that had been told for, & there's far less to suggest that Serenei was into magic (particularly, supposedly, retaining youth & beauty) like her daughter was.

Furthermore, Serenei being considered by many to be the most beautiful of Aegon's mistresses (interestingly despite, & perhaps even in conjunction with, the xenophobic attitudes of many Westerosi) is probably just down to her being the sole Valyrian-blooded & looking of that group, & her attitude/personality (of course there's likely an influence of the situation she's somewhat stuck in with by now gross-as-fuck Aegon, but not even his wife - yet - which I think there was a push for); both of which would be further explained if she were a Rogare descendant.

On 12/6/2016 at 2:36 AM, The hairy bear said:

I don't give much credit to the rumours of Serenei of Lys being and old woman who kept her beauty with dark arts.

I agree (above).

On 12/6/2016 at 2:36 AM, The hairy bear said:

But I could see Serenei being a daughter of Moredo, and in fact, it would make sense. After Moredo led a host against Lys, and presumably was killed or made prisoner, a daughter of him would look for shelter with the last members of her family. Aegon would be her first cousin, so having her as paramount would also be in line with the Taragaryen incestuous practices.

Discounting the rumours against Serenei, she would more likely be a grand-daughter of Moredo (or any of the other Rogares). But yes, absolutely right & I think that's tied into her "patronage" by Jon Hightower. I think Westeros was even more heavily involved in the Lyseni Spring than what the World Book explicitly states:

  • One of Oakenfist's great voyages (c.137AC, perhaps the second where we only know he went to Volantis during it) in an ambitious plan & alliance (between at least Lys, Volantis & Westeros) made by Lysaro to rid the Basilisk Isles (I'm guessing he also had eyes on the Stepstones & expansions into the Disputed Lands too) of pirates (perhaps the Brotherhood of Bones) & even claim them for Lys (Moredo leading the army, Saathos Saan the navy).
  • 139AC: By this time, Lysaro is facing some major opposition from the other magisters of Lys (though I think he inherited "First Magister for Life" from his father, at least nominally) particularly for his excessive spending on war, being a cause for Larra to return home to try & help (along with Moredo, who gives command of the Basilisk Isles to Saan in his absence).
  • The shit hits the fan for the Rogares c.141AC, with the other magisters seizing control of what they can of theirs & brutally executing Lysaro. Likely (physically) punished harshly themselves, Moredo is exiled & Larra kept as a hostage against him & the Iron Throne. Moredo perhaps petitions his in-laws for their help, but they refuse given the shitstorm & of course Larra. Saathos takes the opportunity to crown himself as King of the Basilisk Isles.
  • 145AC: Larra dies, possibly falling afoul of those holding her/opposed to the Rogares & their allies.
  • c.146AC: Oakenfist's 3rd great voyage where the Iron Throne joins in alliance with Moredo (& the rest of the army he is able to gather) to open up a can of whoop-ass on Lys in revenge. The Rogare enemies for the most part are brought down (thanks in no small part to Alyn), but even if Moredo survives & rises to some level of power again, that & the family's wealth is a fraction of what it was ~10 years before.
  • c.171AC: Viserys II, perhaps taking inspiration from Lysaro himself in a way, brokers an alliance with Braavos, Myr, Tyrosh, Volantis, &/or the Summer Islands (Pentos out because of the MUSH logs & Lys obviously); seeking to improve military & trade ties across the Narrow Sea & beyond. Oakenfist (on his 6th & last great voyage) leads the great, diverse fleet to clear the Stepstones & then onto their main target of the Basilisk Isles & Saan (having ruled such for 30 years), who they defeat & destroy.
On 12/6/2016 at 2:36 AM, The hairy bear said:

I like the idea. However, the main argument against Serenei being a Rogere is that one would expect such a think to be mentioned in the world book. The paramounts of Aegon IV are featured only a few pages after the Rogare family is described.

Fair point. But there's a massive amount of stuff left out of TWoIaF because of space issues & (very often) left for the reader to infer their own interpretations.

On 12/6/2016 at 5:39 AM, Bironic said:

She could be a Saan for all we know.

Possibly, though I think it's bit of a stretch that they would be impoverished considering their historical & later individuals, even if we accept my wildly speculative above tinfoil.

On 12/6/2016 at 10:02 AM, Lord Varys said:

We know the detailed accounts basically stretch from the reign of Viserys I to the end of the Regency of Aegon III and the history of the Rogare family might not be over in that story.

Even if Lysaro had a few years to do his things before being in KL from c.134-135AC (I think he mainly only did afterwards, particularly working Johanna into the equation), Lys was still seemingly in enough Rogare control from at least 139AC for Larra to return there. The Lyseni Spring extended for a decade or two imo.

On 12/6/2016 at 10:02 AM, Lord Varys said:

And if we are seeing Shiera ever in the main series or the Dunk & Egg tales her ancestry might be discussed, too. There is something strange going on there with Lord Jon Hightower bringing Serenei to court.

Even with their (imo) Valyrian-like features in some members, Jon obviously learned from the examples of the Brackens & Lothstons/Stokeworths that pimping out a female family member doesn't always work out with Aegon IV (plus he may not have been a cunt, at least to the women of House Hightower). However & whenever Serenei came under Jon's "care", he obviously used her specifically (besides not a daughter or whatever instead & perhaps also learning from Otto's example) to appeal to Aegon's vanity & whatnot (against the Rhoynish appearances, & perhaps ideals/politics, of Mariah & Baelor), particularly as Daemon would've increasingly been favoured among the court even at this time & the king's (obvious) relationship (whether it was consensual or not) with Valyrian-featured Elaena (after Daena of course). But if Serenei was a Rogare ... well there's so much more there considering their roles in Westerosi politics a few decades before & the influence Larra's departure had on Aegon himself. If Jon was looking for Aegon to take Serenei as his new queen (which I think he was), her being related to Aegon through Larra just adds so much more to the whole scenario! Plus it could also work into perhaps Serenei having her own aspirations, particularly if a Rogare - for something of a restoration for them.

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  • 2 weeks later...
1 hour ago, purple-eyes said:

My question is why many women from Essos did not have last names? 

serenei of lys, rohanne of tyroshi, keira of tyroshi, etc. And we know they are noble women, not common people. Why? 

Serala of Myr, Tyanna of Pentos (bastardborn but you get the idea) ... I'd guess it's Westerosi attitudes to foreigners, especially women, as all of those ladies were attached/married to prominent nobles. We hear of plenty of them with last names whilst the PoV/source is in Essos. Larra Rogare is the outlier here, but they may be down to the royal line actually descended from here &/or the prominence of her other family members. Perhaps Serenei, Rohanne, &/or Kiera are further fleshed out in future D&E novellas ...

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